A shift has happened, but I need help losing "me"

[Lisa]

Hi John,

I just wanted to pop in and let you know that I'm back at work today. I work long days, and I won't be able to post in response to your question until this evening. With you in the UK and me in the western USA, I think, with the time difference, it won't be until tomorrow morning, your time, when I'm able to post. Just letting you know... :)

Enjoy the day!

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

Hi John,

I just wanted to pop in and let you know that I'm back at work today. I work long days, and I won't be able to post in response to your question until this evening. With you in the UK and me in the western USA, I think, with the time difference, it won't be until tomorrow morning, your time, when I'm able to post. Just letting you know... :)

Enjoy the day!

~Lisa

Thank you - it's much appreciated! :)

With best wishes,
John

[Lisa]

When you look back at your original posts, what has changed, would you say, since your inquiry here began?

Well, the biggest breakthrough has been the realization that beliefs are just thoughts, and therefore not true. So, the belief that I hadn't fully lost "me" also wasn't true. "Me" was never there to lose, as it is just a thought as well.

I am still in awareness today, and I have noticed that it has become more effortless. When the shift first happened, it felt like there was some effort involved in watching the "Lisa" story instead of being in it. It's like when the TV is on, and sometimes, you are watching the show, fully engaged in what is happening. Sometimes, you might be busy doing other things, and the show is still on, but it's in the background. That's what it's like now with the "Lisa" story. The "Lisa" show is still on, but I'm busy living life. :) Sometimes my attention drifts to the "Lisa" show, but I just notice, that, yep, that's the "Lisa" show, and I get on with living life.

I no longer doubt that this is "it" - that I am in awareness. I have seen beyond the illusion. I know that now.

I have noticed that the fear thoughts have come up, but they have no power over me. There's nothing for them to stick to. I just notice them as thoughts, and let them pass, just like all the other thoughts.

I am laughing a lot. :) I laugh at things that previously I would have thought of as "bad". I laugh when dinner gets burnt. I laugh at some of the thoughts that crop up.

I feel at peace. Life is just flowing through this body. There is no resistance to it. It is perfect, just as it is. :)

With thanks,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

When you look back at your original posts, what has changed, would you say, since your inquiry here began?

Well, the biggest breakthrough has been the realization that beliefs are just thoughts, and therefore not true. So, the belief that I hadn't fully lost "me" also wasn't true. "Me" was never there to lose, as it is just a thought as well.

I am still in awareness today, and I have noticed that it has become more effortless. When the shift first happened, it felt like there was some effort involved in watching the "Lisa" story instead of being in it. It's like when the TV is on, and sometimes, you are watching the show, fully engaged in what is happening. Sometimes, you might be busy doing other things, and the show is still on, but it's in the background. That's what it's like now with the "Lisa" story. The "Lisa" show is still on, but I'm busy living life. :) Sometimes my attention drifts to the "Lisa" show, but I just notice, that, yep, that's the "Lisa" show, and I get on with living life.

I no longer doubt that this is "it" - that I am in awareness. I have seen beyond the illusion. I know that now.

You describe it well - whether you are "in awareness" or "in Lisa" :) - doesn't matter particularly, because you know, you have seen the state of play. The "Lisa" that shows up in the world - will come and go, less and less. But not to be pushed away or judged. We're not looking for a pure state of being here. :) Only to see things as they are and are not. :)

I have noticed that the fear thoughts have come up, but they have no power over me. There's nothing for them to stick to. I just notice them as thoughts, and let them pass, just like all the other thoughts.

I am laughing a lot. :) I laugh at things that previously I would have thought of as "bad". I laugh when dinner gets burnt. I laugh at some of the thoughts that crop up.

Cool.

I feel at peace. Life is just flowing through this body. There is no resistance to it. It is perfect, just as it is. :)

Lovely!

So Lisa, how does choosing happen?

With best wishes,
John

[Lisa]

So Lisa, how does choosing happen?

I know what the logical answer to that question must be. I have looked and there is no "me". There is no one to be doing the choosing, so choosing must just happen. However, that logic isn't good enough. Because, I hadn't watched the process of choosing. Without having that experience, that logic is just a belief. So, I spent today watching choices happen.

Here's what I noticed:

A need or desire arises. I don't cause it to arise. There is no intention for the desire or need to arise. It just arises. For example, this morning, the need to eat arose. Then thoughts arose around what I should eat. I didn't set about to think those thoughts, they just arose, however, they were clearly influenced by present experience - the need to eat. Then the desire to eat potatoes with cheese arose. A check in with present experience occurred: "Do we have potatoes?". Nope, no potatoes. Then the desire to eat cheese on toast arose. A check in with present experience occurred: "Do we have bread?" YES, there is bread! So, the choice to have cheese on toast occurred. The choice came out of the needs and desires that arose, and the other factors in the present moment. It's as if all the conditions were in place for the choice to happen. Just like, on the grander scale in life, I have watched and noticed that, when all the pieces fall into place, larger events happen. It's pretty cool to notice that the same thing is happening on a smaller scale, every day, with the choices that occur. :)

I also noticed that choices are influenced by past experiences. For example, yesterday, I had to go out, and I wasn't wearing the appropriate clothing for the weather. So, I was cold. Today, the need to go out arose. Then the desire to not be cold arose, which was obviously influenced by yesterday's experience. Then the choice was made to wear my hat and gloves.

After watching, today, I think I can say that choices just happen based on factors in the present moment, and in response to desires and needs which arise.

There was another interesting thing I noticed. I wondered about competing desires, such as the desire to eat loads of ice cream, and the desire to be healthy. I realized that I am having a lot less of those competing desires now that "Lisa" back story is no longer given attention. For example, the desire for chocolate used to arise much more frequently, but I think it was influenced by my thoughts about how "I" am stressed and "I" need the chocolate, or It's not fair that "I" can't have chocolate, "I" am so deprived, etc., etc. My desires and needs seem to be so much simpler now. I didn't have any competing desires today, so I couldn't watch that. Hmm...I just realized that work, in and of itself, used to create the sense of competing desires. However, one of the things that has fallen away has been the resistance to my work. The necessity to work just IS. My days used to be filled with thoughts about how I hated my job, and I don't want to do this, and I don't want to do that, and I'd rather be knitting, blah, blah, blah. All that is gone now, along with all the competing desires that used to come along with it. Another pretty cool realization. :)

Thanks for that question! I needed to go into that one.

With thanks,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

That is one of the clearest descriptions of choosing-happening that I've ever read. :) Fantastic. You're a great guide.

Lisa, would love to read your responses to these five questions below. Just write was comes up...

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

WIth kind thanks,
John

[Lisa]

Hi John,

I just wanted to let you know that I'm working on the questions, but I won't be able to finish them tonight. I have had very limited time tonight, and I have caught a cold, so I need to rest right now. My brain refused to create more output in this moment. More tomorrow. :)

With thanks,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

No rush at all...take it easy and look after yourself. :)

With warmest wishes,
John

[Lisa]

Thanks, John,

Just checking in to let you know that I'm still working on the questions. Tomorrow is a day off, so I should have more time. :)

Enjoy the day!

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Thanks, John,

Just checking in to let you know that I'm still working on the questions. Tomorrow is a day off, so I should have more time. :)

Enjoy the day!

~Lisa

Cool - thanks Lisa!

[Lisa]

Hi John,

Here are my responses to the questions. :)

That is one of the clearest descriptions of choosing-happening that I've ever read. :) Fantastic. You're a great guide.

I'm glad my words came out clearly, and that they may provide some guidance. The desire to help others though guiding on this forum is certainly there. When the time is right, I would love to learn more about the process. :)

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No. "Me" is just a concept - a thought. The belief that there is a "me" or a separate self is also just a thought. Being thoughts, these ideas were never truth. They are just figments of the imagination. I can see, in my direct experience, that my body is not the same as my husband's body. So our bodies are separate, but we are not our bodies. The life that animates both of our bodies is the same life. There is just life, and I am part of that, just as all living beings are part of that.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of separate self is the believing of our thoughts about ourselves. It is believing that our thoughts and the thoughts of others about us is who we are. It is the belief that there is an entity within our bodies that is unique and different from an entity in other people's bodies. It is the belief that this entity is controlling one's life.

The illusion of separate self starts when we are children. When we are born, our parents give us a label...our names. It has to be done. We are in different bodies. It would be very difficult to communicate without some way to identify the different bodies. However, we give our pets names, and they don't think they are their names. It's the fact that we have thoughts that contributes to our sense of a separate self, and the fact we believe that those thoughts are who we are.

Our parents and those around us, promote this sense of a separate self in us. When we look in the mirror, as children, our parents tell us the image in the mirror is "Lisa". Thus, we begin to believe we are our bodies. We are very impressionable as children. Our parents are our guides through the world. And our parents are constantly reinforcing that we are separate selves. When we do something that our parents approve of, for example, they might say that "Lisa is a good girl". So, the child Lisa starts thinking she is a good girl. This is reinforced throughout our lives, and it is based on our experiences. For example, a child may have had experiences where he does well in sports. He may start thinking that he is athletic, and people around him may reinforce that idea. Thus, another piece is added to the story, through his thoughts, that he is building about himself. The society that I grew up in also promotes this sense of separate self. Books on parenting teach us to give children choices, so that they feel they have power over their lives. In school, I experienced many "self-esteem" building activities. We are taught that happiness comes from having a high opinion of one's self. We are also taught, through the media, that things will make us happy: "Buy this car, your life will be so much better!" , "Wear this cologne - the girls will flock to you (and you will be happy)".

This idea of a separate self is actually very fragile. It needs constant reinforcing and protecting. People must constantly reaffirm that they are who they think they are, and they need constant reinforcement from others that they are who they think they are. They defend who they think they are. They might attack others who threaten who they think they are. The separate self is high maintenance!

And, the separate self is the cause of a great deal of suffering, because the self can never be built well enough. It seems that others are always trying to bash it down. One can never acquire enough stuff to make this imaginary self happy. One's expectations aren't always met. It's hard, disheartening work when you think you are driving the ship, and it rarely goes where you want it to!

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

I am at peace. All resistance to life has fallen away. My attachment to any given outcome, my judgment of whether a particular experience is "good" or "bad", my need to defend the "Lisa" story, my perceived "need" to buy stuff to make "Lisa" happy, my attachment to doing "pleasant" things vs. "unpleasant" things - all of that has fallen away. If life brings the need to do something that I previously would have thought of as "unpleasant", I just do that thing. There is no resistance to it. In the "Lisa" story, in the background, there may be thoughts about how "I'd rather be doing something else", "It isn't fair that I have to do this thing", etc. etc., but I no longer believe those thoughts. In fact, most of the time, currently, I don't even notice that they are there. But I can tell you they used to be there. They used to rule my life and cause a great deal of suffering.

What is left is contentment with this present moment, just as it is. Sometimes the present moment brings discomfort. Currently, I am experiencing a cold. This cold has caused some "poor me" "Lisa" thoughts to arise. However, I noticed that when I am believing those thoughts, when I am back in the "Lisa" story, I feel so much worse. When I am in awareness, just accepting that this cold IS. I really don't feel so bad. The uncomfortable sensations are still there, but it is the resistance to them, the believing of our thoughts about them, that makes them so much worse. In this way, my suffering has diminished greatly.

My focus has also shifted from "me" and what I need to do to make "me" happy to others. There is no resistance to giving kindness and my time to the benefit of others. There used to be. "Lisa" would think that she had better things to do. She knew that she "should" do this kindness, but it was often begrudgingly, to be honest. Also, I can see the causes of suffering in others. I can see how their thoughts cause their suffering. I feel so much more compassion for those who are trapped by their thoughts. I feel a desire to help them see the truth.

Speaking of desires, they are still there. Hopes are still there. What is gone is the attachment to any outcome associated with them. If the desires are not met, oh well, that is what IS. If the hopes do not come to pass, oh well, that is what IS. I am simply being, in this moment, knowing that this moment is absolutely perfect, just as it IS. It is all there is. The past is gone. The future only exists in thought. All there IS, is this moment.

Also gone, is the thinking that" I" am driving this ship of life. I have seen that choices just happen. I have seen that there is no "me" to be driving the ship. This has made life more effortless. It always was effortless, but thinking that I had control was hard work indeed! Especially, when the darn boat wouldn't go where I wanted it to!! :)

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Boy, this is a hard one, because that really depends on the person and the situation. I know that, when that moment arises, the necessary words will arise. Having said that, I'll make an attempt in general terms.

I guess I might tell them that everything they think about themselves is not who they are, that their thoughts are creating a story of who they are, but their true essence is not that story. I might say that the "me" that they think they are is just a thought, and I might point them to noticing that their thoughts are often off base. I might tell them that these thoughts about who they are result in a great deal of suffering. Then I would give them examples from my own experience, how, when I realized that "I" was just a story my thoughts were creating, I happened to be at work. I would tell them how, every day at work used to be filled with suffering, because I was constantly believing my thoughts that "I hate my job", "I don't want to do this", "This task is boring", "I don't want to be here.", "I want to be knitting.", etc., etc., and when I saw that all that was a story that my thoughts were creating about my experience, my perception of the experience changed. The experience became just an experience, without any judgment about it, and thus my suffering on that day at work disappeared. There was just work, without belief in the back story in my thoughts about it. Work, without believing (ha ha...my spell check just tried to change the way "believing" came out to "belie living...pretty cool!) all the "poor Lisa" thoughts, ceased to be viewed as an unpleasant experience. It just WAS.

I might mention that this idea that they have about themselves requires quite a bit of effort to maintain. That the building of this separate sense of self must take place constantly, and must be reinforced by others constantly. I might point them to the watching of Facebook posts to see this in action. I might mention how much effort it takes to maintain and protect the "self" that they think they are, and, when they see that this is just a story, all this effort falls away, and a great deal of suffering falls away with it.

Ultimately, I would tell them that they can't just believe what I am telling them - that they have to look and see for themselves. Then I would tell them to look for the "me" that they think is there. I would probably also direct them to the Liberation Unleashed website.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

As I have noticed in life, several pieces fell into place creating the conditions that brought me to the place of looking. Over the past few years, I have been given opportunities to walk into fear, and I took those opportunities. I noticed that every time I walk into fear, I open. I recognized that it was fear of losing my relationship (because I thought that non-attachment would mean having to give up my attachment to my husband) that caused me to give up seeking 13 years ago - not just give up seeking, it caused me to actively resist seeking. (As a sideline, it turns out that non-attachment has only resulted in the dissolution of my fear of losing my husband. The love for him is still there, strong as ever. What has gone is any attachment to the outcome of the relationship. He he...and to think that for all those years I was resisting this because of fear...and all that disappeared was the fear!) I recognized that it was fear that was stopping me from looking for a "me". The day before I looked, I did a task that I had been avoiding for some time. I noticed that the doing of that task actually required a lot less effort than the avoiding of it. Thus, I became aware of the effort I was expending resisting seeking. And finally, in the few days before I let go of my resistance, I was experiencing a heavy sadness because of an issue in my relationship. I realized that I couldn't control the outcome of my relationship - that, if it was going to end...it was going to end. I just let go...on so many levels, and broke wide open, it seems.

So I looked. I had actually looked before, but resisted what I found. So, it was a looking, but I think the most important thing that fell away was the resisting, because I had already seen. I was actually on my bike ride to work when I went into this. By the time I got to work, the shift had happened. It was very sudden for me. I certainly didn't cause it to happen, and I didn't expect it to happen. I expected a long road of seeking ahead of me. It was quite a surprise when I noticed that I was suddenly seeing the "Lisa" story, but I was no longer in it. I was completely detached from it. I also noticed that all judgment of whether something was "good" or "bad" fell away. All attachment to any outcome of the "Lisa" story fell away. I was just being...accepting whatever came my way that day. The shift was very subtle, and though sudden, it was very gentle, no bells and whistles, no chorus of angels...just a seeing of the illusion.

After that day, there were a few very intense days. The next day, I kept losing moments of time. I don't know where I went, but I would "wake up" and have no recollection of what happened in the previous moments. For example, I went to pour my water at work. I found myself standing at the water jug, but the water had already been poured and was on my desk. I felt like the Cheshire Cat...disappearing and reappearing all day. I don't know what was going on that day. It only lasted for that one day. The next couple days, I lost my sense of awareness and was back in the "Lisa" story. In those days, I was consumed by fears. That's when I came here requesting a guide. Since then, I remained mostly in awareness. Sometimes, "Lisa" pops back up, and I notice I'm falling for the story. When the noticing that I'm back in the "Lisa" story happens, I pop back into awareness.

It's amazing to think that all of this has taken place in just over a week. Wow...how my life has changed in that short space of time.

Truly grateful for your guidance, John.

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

Have just sent you a PM, so if you could check your private messages when you get a moment.

With warmest wishes,
John

[Lisa]

Hi John,

Have checked my PMs, and nothing has shown up. Perhaps it takes a while? I'll check again later. :)

With thanks,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

Hi John,

Have checked my PMs, and nothing has shown up. Perhaps it takes a while? I'll check again later. :)

With thanks,

~Lisa

Have given it another push... :)

Best,
John