Hello...?

[Steve101]

Hi Omar, did you read the post before the truth/lie pointer? Please read it. Thank you.

[Steve101]

I just knew. But how can I know that I have really ‘seen no-Santa? That’s the question that you have just asked. Can you see the senselessness in trying to see that you cant see?

Yes, but in the case of the self it's a conscious belief but it's also related to a bunch of unconscious processes. For example, I notice that I still have desire, or I still dread pain. But isn't desire assuming there's an "I" that can "get" something? And doesn't dreading pain assume that there's an "I" who is "owning" the pain? If I really knew I had no self at all then shouldn't I have no more desires? And be indifferent to pain? It's as if I had seen through the most obvious layer of self, but am I not at a subtler level still "owning" parts of my experience?

‘Conscious belief’ isn’t that just a thought?

If I really knew I had no self at all then shouldn't I have no more desires?

Read what you have written there a few times. How can you really know when you don’t have something???? Really? Well, you either have it or you don’t. The belief in a self is just a lie you are telling yourself. You are looking for complete certainty about a thought that just comes and goes. STOP. You will never get certainty, never. Certainty is just a thought. Even after you have seen that the self never existed you will still have preferences, you will still like ice cream….or not. Old patterns will still exist. It is ok to desire something (desire is just a thought or a feeling about a thought) this does not mean that you have not seen the truth. Please read the disclaimers again. You seem to have expectations about what will happen when you see that the self never existed and it was just a thought whether conscious or unconscious. Have you read ‘The gateless gatecrashers?’ If not, please read it and see what resonates and we will discuss further.

[AskingMonkey]

Read what you have written there a few times. How can you really know when you don’t have something???? Really? Well, you either have it or you don’t. The belief in a self is just a lie you are telling yourself. You are looking for complete certainty about a thought that just comes and goes. STOP. You will never get certainty, never. Certainty is just a thought. Even after you have seen that the self never existed you will still have preferences, you will still like ice cream….or not. Old patterns will still exist. It is ok to desire something (desire is just a thought or a feeling about a thought) this does not mean that you have not seen the truth. Please read the disclaimers again. You seem to have expectations about what will happen when you see that the self never existed and it was just a thought whether conscious or unconscious. Have you read ‘The gateless gatecrashers?’ If not, please read it and see what resonates and we will discuss further.

Okay, I will read it and keep thinking about this.

Thank you Steve.

[Steve101]

Hi Omar, while you are taking a look at ‘Gate crashers’ let’s look back at something you said:

Allowing myself to really look and question everything feels both exhilarating and slightly terrifying.

‘exhilarating and slightly terrifying’ are both emotions. Emotions are our thinking in physical motion which although it appears to happen in the body can only ever really happen in our awareness just like everything else. However, we then use language to label what we think those emotions were trying to tell us.

When we use language in our heads to think, does it always tell us the truth?

If it language sometimes does not tell us the truth why would it lie to us?

‘exhilarating and slightly terrifying’ sounds like they were happening at the same time and therefore was either ‘exhilarating’ or ‘terrifying’ but not both but you chose to give it two labels. I take it that it was an uncomfortable feeling which means contraction….what was this emotion telling you: a truth or a lie?

[AskingMonkey]

When we use language in our heads to think, does it always tell us the truth?

Clearly not. Language is always telling stories which may not be true. For example, it can tell me that "that person over there didn't say hi to me because they hate me", but the reality could be that they are distracted.

If it language sometimes does not tell us the truth why would it lie to us?

Hmm... I'm not sure how to answer this question. "Why" would language lie to us? Language (thinking) is always making up stories based on its own memories/conditioning, etc. This does not always reflect reality. Language is not based on reality. Its based on its own processes. It is part of reality (because it is happening), but it's not reflecting reality.

‘exhilarating and slightly terrifying’ sounds like they were happening at the same time and therefore was either ‘exhilarating’ or ‘terrifying’ but not both but you chose to give it two labels. I take it that it was an uncomfortable feeling which means contraction….what was this emotion telling you: a truth or a lie?

I think it was something like the feeling of contraction right before going downhill in a rollercoaster. Like "something really exciting is about to happen", but at the same time I'm slightly dreading it. But I think it mostly came from a "story" I was telling myself at the time: like "wow, I'm exploring non-self". I suppose there was some contraction in the body (dread), but also thoughts about how freeing seeing the absence of self will be...

I think the dread part was a lie because it's coming from a "story" language is telling about "seeing non-self". And I suppose the excitement or the sense of freedom is also a lie because it's also coming from a "story". I suppose seeing non-self is just... seeing non-self. It's just seeing a fact of life. Not going on some big adventure or anything, just seeing something.

[Steve101]

I suppose seeing non-self is just... seeing non-self.

Is there really something to see?

Is it possible to see something that never existed?

If you had your TV stolen or you never had a TV would you go looking for no-TV?

How do you respond when you realise that something was just a myth or urban legend?

What is it like when you just STOP, take a breath and SEE? Do you find any sense of control there or is everything just happening?

Let's look at how necessary (or not) all of those words are.

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'you” are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[AskingMonkey]

Is there really something to see?

Ah! I get it. Yes. There's nothing to see. Just life as it's already happening. The reality is already that there's no self so there's nothing that needs to be seen other than things as they are already.

If you had your TV stolen or you never had a TV would you go looking for no-TV?

Of course not. I would just notice that there's not a TV there.

How do you respond when you realise that something was just a myth or urban legend?

I just.. stop believing whatever the urban legend was about.

What is it like when you just STOP, take a breath and SEE? Do you find any sense of control there or is everything just happening?

Ok, I'm moving my eyes around the room, and there's definitely a sense that "I" am moving "my" eyes around. There's a sense of control. But what is this "sense"? Is it a thought? I'm looking in DE. This "I" is an assumption. It's thoughts that are interpreting the world and telling me that this is how things are. They seem all-pervasive.

Does it choose any of its directions?

No. It's not choosing anything. It's just flowing out of necessity.

Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

It's not a separate entity. It's just a flow of matter changing moment by moment. Language labels it as a "stream", but there is no "stream". Just the combination of the water, the movement, the conditions, etc.

Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

My immediate response is that of course there's a "me" that is not just blindly reacting to conditions. But this is just a thought that is deeply ingrained. I notice resistance arising from going through this investigation. Like it sounds horrible to say I'm just a process going along with conditions and I have no agency (I feel like we went through this already). (But I want to see the truth, not just believe a nice fairy tale). Back to DE. Can I find a "me" choosing that's not part of the flow? Again, I notice a lot of resistance arising as I ask this question. There's a tightening in the body. Like a dread. It seems obvious I will never find this "me" apart from the flow of experience. Yet the belief in it (thoughts referring to it) are definitely real and seem all-pervasive. It's as if my mind had made up a character and then it was defending it with all its might. How could I ever get rid of these thoughts about a self? They seem so deeply ingrained, so habitual.

I'm sorry. I feel like I'm very thick. I don't know why I can't "get it". It seems like an impossible task.

Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?

Okay, I am thinking about how I decide what to eat for breakfast. There's a kind of impulse that arises when I look in the cupboard and I see something I fancy eating. This of course is determined by my previous conditioning and my preferences, which "I" didn't decide. They just sort of happened. So in this particular case, I can see that there's no autonomous entity deciding anything, it's just the flow.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

Oh, god. Yeah, okay, I see. There isn't anything apart from the "flow" of life. There couldn't be. But still there's this very powerful sense of "I" arising every moment.

I don't know... I feel like I'm stuck.

OKay, wait. I keep reverting to thinking instead of looking in DE.

Yes—there's a sense of "I", which is an interpretation, i.e., thoughts arising. There are also sensations in the body.

Okay, okay, okay. I think I'm starting to see what you are trying to show me with all these examples. Ah! It's not terrifying at all... I kind of had a glimpse of it for a moment but now I've lost it. It's as if you had been pointing your finger for me to look at some object, but I keep arguing with you instead of... just looking! And I tell myself I'm looking, but I'm actually still thinking about the looking.

I'm sorry for being so slow to get it...

3. Can anything be found for which 'you” are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Wow... I don't know. I don't even know how to begin answering this. Am "I" responsible for anything? I mean... who am I to begin with? —ha ha... I don't know how to answer this because I try to look in DE but this seems like such a conceptual question. Like "being responsible" is such an abstract concept... Oh god, I keep thinking, thinking, thinking.

JUST LOOK, OMAR! GO BACK TO DE.

I notice that when I ask this question resistance arises. A clenching in the body. Like something in me wants to find an "answer" and then there's the thought that the right answer must be something very complicated... but that's all just theorizing. If I look at direct experience... can I find anything for which "I" am responsible? "I mean, yeah, lots of things" is my first thought. "I'm responsible for my life, for the choices I've made, etc., etc." Like there's this sense that when I decide A instead of B, like giving money to a beggar instead of walking by, "I" am "responsible" for that choice. There's definitely this sense, which again is an interpretation. But can I find this "I" who's supposedly "responsible"? Again I feel a lot of resistance arising when I start questioning this belief...

[Steve101]

Hi Omar, wow….NOW you are seeing. You are now questioning everything. This is fantastic.

There is no stream

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes…this is it….THERE IS NO STREAM AND NEVER WAS!

We are going to come at this from a slightly different angle now but first there is something that you must fully understand:

We have mental well being hard wired into our DNA. This is an irrefutable fact. This leads us nicely to our next pointer:

The pond

Read the passage below. Imagine that you are the character in the story. After having read it, sit quietly and just allow knowing without labels, without words, without even wanting to know arise. Allow the story in and any truth it may hold.

You are sitting comfortably next to a clear, beautiful pond in nature. You often walked by the pond admiring the clarity the water and the beauty surrounding it. One day you had a sense that the pond should belong to you. This sense wanted you to control the pond and make it more beautiful. You began to go to the pond each day taking with you a long stick. You decided that in order to make the pond more to your liking you would take the stick and swirl the water around and make patterns in it and make the water drip from the stick causing ripples. This was fun but you noticed that the water instead of being clear began to appear cloudy with mud that you had stirred up with stick. You felt very sad about this and decided to take the stick and try and make the mud go back to the bottom of the pond. You thought that the more frantically you moved the stick around the more likely it would be that the water would be clear and beautiful again but no matter what you tried it would just make things worse. Days and months passed and one day, for some reason….and you never found out why, you decided to just let go of the stick and drop it and sit quietly once again by the pond….miraculously you noticed that the water began to be clear again all by itself….as was it’s nature to do. The answer, in the end, was really quite simple.

We have mental well being hard wired into our DNA. This is an irrefutable fact. Could this be true?

Resistence is a label that you have given to something that you are feeling, is the label true?

Could you allow this feeling to just be there and do nothing about it?

Would you allow this feeling to just be there and do nothing about it?

When?

Could you simply drop the feeling like the stick in the story….is that even possible?

What do you think the story is trying to tell you?

[AskingMonkey]

Hi Steve. I'm not feeling so well today. I will post tomorrow. Thank you. I will keep reflecting on the story and reading Gateless Gatecrashers.

[Steve101]

Hi Omar, no problem. Get well soon.

[AskingMonkey]

Hi Steve,

I had an experience I would like to report today. I was walking down the street thinking about the non-self thing, and I suddenly felt like I was much more present. Like there wasn't a separation between "life" and the constant story I keep making about a separate entity that's supposedly "living life". In fact, that whole story seems kind of strange! I feel like in a way it became more immediate, whereas before I was still having thoughts about "non-self" but not fully seeing it in life. However, the experience passed and I still notice the story of the self arising.

We have mental well being hard wired into our DNA. This is an irrefutable fact. Could this be true?

Okay, I keep having to focus on my actual experience to answer this because I have so many thoughts that "the natural state of the mind is peaceful"—but which are just thoughts and not actually seen in experience. However, when I actually LOOK, what I notice is that there seems to be a constant "peacefulness" in the mind, a kind of "okayness" that is irrespective of the actual conditions. Yet—as in the story, it seems that I keep missing this peacefulness because I "agitate the water" by losing myself in thinking.

Resistence is a label that you have given to something that you are feeling, is the label true?

It's an interpretation of a physical sensation. It's sensation + thought.

Could you allow this feeling to just be there and do nothing about it?

Yes...

When?

Now. Always. Anytime.

Could you simply drop the feeling like the stick in the story….is that even possible?

I don't know... it's hard to answer because it's been many days so the feelings now are totally different. But I can se how I can just let things be as they are without the need to control and fix everything...

What do you think the story is trying to tell you?

My whole life I have been operating from the assumption that there's a "self" that is in control of things. When things don't go according to this self's view, I try to control them so they do. I feel justified in doing this because, how else will life go well? However, I can see how much suffering and conflict this attitude has caused, in myself and with others. I think that the story is trying to say that when we relax and allow things to naturally take their course then we can find peace and acceptance with whatever is happening.

[Steve101]

I had an experience I would like to report today. I was walking down the street thinking about the non-self thing, and I suddenly felt like I was much more present. Like there wasn't a separation between "life" and the constant story I keep making about a separate entity that's supposedly "living life". In fact, that whole story seems kind of strange! I feel like in a way it became more immediate, whereas before I was still having thoughts about "non-self" but not fully seeing it in life. However, the experience passed and I still notice the story of the self arising.

What actually happened was that you were thinking and then for a moment stopped thinking and then you experienced life directly and then you went back to thinking again and then had a thought that said ‘I lost it.’ You went back to having thoughts about thoughts.

As you go about your day LOOK for your thinking. What do you see?

As you go about you day LOOK for your awareness. What do you see?

Take 10 minutes, sit quietly and just do thinking (set a timer). Think about anything. DO THE FULL 10 MINUTES PLEASE. Look at each thought as it appears, really shine a light on each thought.

Did most thoughts just appear or did you design them then make them happen?

Did you feel free at any point?

What did you achieve in the 10 minutes?

Were there any moments of just awareness? What was the difference?

Were you relieved to stop doing the thinking and take a break at the end.

Any sense that thinking was just automatic like your heart beating, your liver functioning?

Is there any underlying recognition of the nature of thinking?

[AskingMonkey]

Did most thoughts just appear or did you design them then make them happen?

They just appear.

Did you feel free at any point?

No. It was more like I was going along with the flow of thinking without any control.

What did you achieve in the 10 minutes?

Nothing...

Were there any moments of just awareness? What was the difference?

Not really... my mind has been kind of agitated lately.

Were you relieved to stop doing the thinking and take a break at the end.

Not particularly...

Any sense that thinking was just automatic like your heart beating, your liver functioning?

Yes, it seems to be pretty automatic. Yet the "self" really feels like it "owns" it. But it's more like just an endless flow of random stuff arising and then passing away.

Is there any underlying recognition of the nature of thinking?

I'm not sure...

[Steve101]

Hi Omar,

Did most thoughts just appear or did you design them then make them happen?

They just appear.

Yes, they just appear. Thoughts with content will always just appear and disappear one after another.

Are thoughts important?

If they are important, what makes them important?

What is the difference between a thought about an apple and a thought about a self?

What is knowing?

Is knowing more valuable than thinking?

[AskingMonkey]

Hello Steve, I'm very sorry I haven't had time to reply today. I have been busy with family but next week I will have much more free time. I'm excited to continue with the investigation. Thank you.