Cutting through the veil

[Elk1]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
In my understanding, the "real inherent self" is the mistaken conception, that I, me, exist in and by itself, as a seperate, guiding and active entity. If Lu guides one to see no self, it's is to guide one see through this illusion and to realize that the self doesn't exist in the way one thought it did, that it isn't this real entity

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm not sure exactly, I guess I'm looking for someone to guide me though some exercises and techniques to question how I usually see and understand things- so I can understand emptiness, the ultimate non-existence of things and of me not just on an intellectual level, because I read books about it and thought about it, but to understand it by the means of experiencing it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect, that someone will ask me certain questions or gives me prompts to think about or little tasks to do and that these will assist me on my journey, that my own process is facilitated and there is room for questions and doubts and whenever I get side tracked or would normally loose motivation, someone can pull me.roghr back to the process

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been drawn to and practicing Buddhism for a number of years now, I have always been drawn to metaphysical questions and understanding the world beyond the physical. Yet also been approaching this not only through Buddhism, but also through yoga, vedanta and a bit of Sankya philosophy, as well as psychology &philosophy. I've also used psychedelics, such as psilocybin or Ayahuasca on my spiritual journey. I had glimpses of - I am everything, everything is one during my psychedelic trips, and during vipassana retreats as well.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[jrm72]

Hello Elk1,

My name is James and I can be your guide.

This works best in a Q&A style rather than a discussion, because a discussion is more intellectualising, and what is needed is LOOKING. Also best if you post every day. If you know you can’t do this, tell me and a more suitable guide will find you.


Have you read the info at these two links? (please confirm) -

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041



There is no one judging answers here, so be as honest as possible in your answers and inquiry.

This exploration is based on direct experience (DE) - smell, taste, sound, physical sensation and observed thoughts. Analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
All other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on can be distractions. Put your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written. Answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Using the quote function makes things clearer as the thread progresses.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT." -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

I have had no experience with psychodelics, so if that's the route you want to take, a guide with experience in that area would be far better.



What would you like for me to call you?


You say -

the self doesn't exist in the way one thought it did

What if the self doesn't exist at all?


What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?


❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Have you read the info at these two links?

Yes I have read the info, thank you for being my guide, James.

What would you like for me to call you?

You can call me Debora.
I will try my best to post daily and currently I dont plan on exploring with psychedelics, so thats fine.

What if the self doesn't exist at all?

That is definitely a possibility, but it is difficult to imagine. If the self doesnt exist, then who is thinking, acting, writing this text? Then a lot of things I (and other people as well) do do not make sense, since they function to make me "develop", or maintain or to prove something. For example, getting to know another person and in that process sharing details about one"self" then would be ridiculous, it is just stories told. Or the whole idea of dating app profiles, the description of oneself there. Any worry about how other people may perceive me, decisions about career etc. would not mean much, if there is no self to maintain to act from. Writing this, I can sense that all these things I worry about, I decide, I are very likley pointless, absurd. Yet it is scary to not do them, to not take things and my"self" seriously. If the self doesnt exist at all, then many things would be pointless and everything would be more aimless and uncertain.

What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?

For one, I sometimes dont trust the promise and am sceptical: if the possibility of awakening is really possible, if people can really achieve it in this lifetime, or if it is something told to make this life a bit more tolerable or to get people to behave in certain ways. And then I am attached to this life, this world, the people I love and my way of living. This attahcmnet makes me reluctant to let go. Then, I think I am also scared of the consequences of awakening, that it will bring a radical shift to the way I live my life, and there attachment comes into play again.

[jrm72]

Evening Debora,

That is definitely a possibility, but it is difficult to imagine.

No imagination needed. Also don't take anything I say as truth, always verify it for yourself, in your own experience.

If the self doesnt exist, then who is thinking, acting, writing this text?

Sit at your keyboard and look for anything that is causing the typing to happen.

Is there a thought that precedes the typing or do the words just appear?
Do you really know what you're going to type or does it just happen?

For one, I sometimes dont trust the promise and am sceptical

Don't trust any promises and be sceptical. It's only real when the experience is happening.

or if it is something told to make this life a bit more tolerable or to get people to behave in certain ways.

It may or may not make your life more tolerable, and there is no requisite here to have you behave in anyway.

This attahcmnet makes me reluctant to let go.

The only thing to let go of is the idea of self, which is just a thought.
As an example, why do you think chameleons change colour (Google it)?

that it will bring a radical shift to the way I live my life

It may or may not bring a radical shift.
Before I had my "shift" there was a saying told to me that used to completely frustrated me - 'Nothing changes, but everything's different.'
It doesn't frustrate me anymore.



❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Hi James,

Is there a thought that precedes the typing or do the words just appear?

If I am sitting at my keyboard, there is the thought about what I want to type which precedes the typing. I think about what I want to say and then I type it. Yet, this concerns the general activity of typing and the specific words I am typing, but I am not consciously thinking: now my fingers will touch the keyboard, press down and lift and move location. The specific execution happens automatically following the thought/intention to type.

Do you really know what you're going to type or does it just happen?

Yes, I do know what I will type, even though sometimes I realize while typing that I want to reformulate it and change what I am typing. I know vaguely what I am going to type, yet it is open to change in the moment, which I cannot foresee.

why do you think chameleons change colour

I always thought they change color as a way of camouflaging, to blend in. But actually, looking it up, they do it to express moods and communicate, e.g., to stand out against a rival. I see, that they still change color nonetheless my understanding, my conception of chameleons has changed.
So you are saying, that letting go of the idea of self is all that is required, everything is different yet nothing changes- in that sense I don't "sacrifice" or "loose" anything, I don't need to cut attachments. There is nothing to lose.

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

There is nothing to lose.

Except the idea of self.

Couldn't have put it better.




There's an exercise I'd like you to try -


A pointer to look at "control. "

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Now move the hand in a random pattern.
Who or what chose the pattern?


❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Hi, good morning James,

How is the movement controlled?

The movement of the palm flipping happens quite automatic, it is not really controlled. Even though I want to flip the palm, I intend to do it it isn't directly controlled somehow.

Does a thought control it?

Not really. Before I start the exercise, there are thoughts and the decision to do this now, but with each flip of the palm, there is no thought controlling, preceding it.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

The only decision point I can find, is before the start of the exercise, there is no point I can locate where the decision is made that I will now flip the hand over. But if I want, I can slow down and control the movement completely, generate the thought: turn now, and then flip it over. Yet this then feels completely different than before.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I chose the right hand out of hand, since it is my dominant side. Writing this, it feels wrong to write "I" chose. I don't know who or what chose it actually. I think I observed, I witnessed it, yet I don't know who or what chose. Automatic, habitual neural processes maybe, it just happened. It must occur in my unconscious maybe.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, I cannot.

Who or what chose the pattern?

I don't know, I am observing the pattern, letting it happen but it is produced rather spontaneously. I don't know what/who chooses it. I am not conscious about it. I want to say it's "me" but that would be more a habitual response and more a way of trying to explain something I don't know. As if, because this movement is happening, there must be logically be an agent moving it

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

So we seem to have no control of our actions.

Now look at your thoughts as they arise.
Just let them come up and pass by.

Can you find a place where these thoughts come from?

Can you predict which thought is coming next?

Is there any control or controller over the thoughts?


❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Hi James,

So we seem to have no control of our actions.

I can agree with regards to the more "automatic" ones. Yet there are some actions which are very mindful/intentional where there seems to be a conscious locus of control. Like when I flip my palm super slow and deliberately it does seem like there is control. But most of the time, it's more unconscious, automatic processes we don't consciously control, yes.

Can you find a place where these thoughts come from?

Not really, they float around in this internal space, this internal theater appearing, disappearing or going in circles.

Can you predict which thought is coming next?

No, I cannot. If I try to really observe and wait for the next one, sometimes nothing comes and then I get distracted again by thoughts, realizing it then much later that there was a thought again yet I couldn't catch it when it came in.

Is there any control or controller over the thoughts?

Not that I can identify, no. Here, even if I try to be very intentional and deliberately produce certain thought, very quickly this control fades or doesn't even work, and random thoughts pop up again.

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

So we seem to have no control of our actions.
I can agree with regards to the more "automatic" ones. Yet there are some actions which are very mindful/intentional where there seems to be a conscious locus of control.

Where does that mindful intention come from?
Look for the locus of control and tell me where or what it is.

(There may well be an unconscious aspect to this, but there may not be.
There is no way from direct experience to tell. Everything is a story. And we cling to the stories we believe.)

Is there any control or controller over the thoughts?
Not that I can identify, no.

So we also have no control of our thoughts.


❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Hi James,

Where does that mindful intention come from?

It seems to come from this "inner voice" this inner dialogue which seems to sit somewhere around where my eyes are. Inside of my head or throat, but I cannot precisely point to a location where exactly it is, it is more of a vague sense of self which for me seems to be located there. Yet it isnt always so evident for me. And I do not know what it is exactly, the most precise explanation is the inner voice or my consciousness.

Everything is a story. And we cling to the stories we believe

This stuck with me, it seems very true.

[jrm72]

Evening Debora,

Where does that mindful intention come from?
It seems to come from this "inner voice" this inner dialogue

Whatever the location of this inner voice, is it anything other than thoughts?

Everything is a story. And we cling to the stories we believe

This stuck with me, it seems very true.

Never believe anything I say, because it seems to resonant with truth for you.
Always check in your own Direct Experience (what you see, hear, taste, touch and smell)
Thoughts are tricky, because having a thought is DE but the content of the thought isn't, for the content is usually a thought about a thought (if you see where that's going).


This may help clarify -


Label-Reality Correlation

There is usually a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


❤️🖖

[jrm72]

Apologies - noticed an error in the last exercise - try this


Label-Reality Correlation

There is usually a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

[Elk1]

Hi James,

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

The experience is about the color red, seeing the red color with the "wrong" label. Yet the visual input is stronger than the semantic, input of the word.

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

The red color is experienced.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

No.

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Yes.

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

The second, it is a label of the experience, which doesn't fit with the immediate experience of the color red. If I careful think about the label and thereby ignore the visual experience, I can go into the green experience, but tagt is a different experience. So no, it isn't an inherent attribute.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

The direct experience of the color isn't affected, yet there might be different mental construct/associations evoked depending on the word good or bad.

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Redness itself stays redness and doesn't become inherently bad or good. The only thing that changes is the association, the stories being activated in my mind (hell, anger vs passion, warmth). The labels only have an effect on my mental associations, yet don't affect the "reality" or the direct experience of the color.

[jrm72]

Evening Debora,

So extending the idea of labels -

The menu is not the meal
The map is not the territory
The word is not the thing


Is the word 'apple' an apple?

Are there any words that are what they label?


❤️🖖