Couldn't get it, couldn't forget it

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

I'm doing fine, thanks for checking. I posted a response day before yesterday, but again I don't see it here.

Is there an Opinion, without thought? Is there a belief without thought?

No. No opinion, no belief.

What is there when no opinion or belief to distract?

Just spaciousness.

I noted in my first response that spaciousness seems boring. Like thoughts, beliefs, and opinions are chewing gum for the mind. I grab hold of a thought or a temporary opinion just to chew on something, but it's for entertainment value, something to "do." When I'm done with it, it seems to drift away.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

but it's for entertainment value, something to "do.

Who or what is being entertained?

" When I'm done with it, it seems to drift away.

Who or what is being done with it?

[CarefulDog88]

Check using direct experience- try to expand in your answer please

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Who or what is being entertained?

I can't find "entertained" in the body. "Bored" has a sensation, though, in the solar plexus and chest.

" When I'm done with it, it seems to drift away." [thought]
Who or what is being done with it?

Nothing is being done with it. It just evaporates.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne

"Bored" has a sensation, though, in the solar plexus and chest.

Is that a sensation being labelled Bored by a thought story?
Describe the sensation Please, using language that reflects the DE of sensations, like contraction or expansion, hot or cold, weak or strong, tight relaxed.

Nothing is being done with it. It just evaporates.

Is there any control over thoughts appearing and evaporating?

How would you describe what you are doing right now?
Is there any control over anything happening?

Is there anyone or an I or a self doing this?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Is that a sensation being labelled Bored by a thought story?

No, it's a thought called "bored," and when I look for it without the thought, it is in my solar plexus, tight, hot.

Is there any control over thoughts appearing and evaporating?

Experience says "yes." If there is a thought about a question, it feels as though I am thinking about it until there is a solution, or until it becomes obvious the solution doesn't lie in thought. If I want to calculate the inner angle of one corner of an octagon, wouldn't I be thinking about it until I calculated the answer, or gave up trying because I didn't have enough information?

How would you describe what you are doing right now?

I am thinking about your questions, looking for the sensation that answers the questions, then thinking about the words that describe to you what I saw or did not see.

Is there any control over anything happening?

It feels as though there is a me who is deciding whether to respond now, exercise more thought, delay, etc.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

Is that a sensation being labelled Bored by a thought story?

No, it's a thought called "bored," and when I look for it without the thought, it is in my solar plexus, tight, hot.

So if I understand correctly, a thought called "bored" happens and when you look for this thought you find it in the solar plexus as tight and hot, is this what you are saying?.

Without the Thought called "Bored", does the tight and hot still exist in the solar plexus?

If Yes, would it be fair to say that the tight and hot solar plexus is there before the thought called "bored" and then the thought called"bored" comes along and claims to be the tight and hot in the solar plexus?

Is there any control over thoughts appearing and evaporating?

Experience says "yes." If there is a thought about a question, it feels as though I am thinking about it until there is a solution, or until it becomes obvious the solution doesn't lie in thought. If I want to calculate the inner angle of one corner of an octagon, wouldn't I be thinking about it until I calculated the answer, or gave up trying because I didn't have enough information?

Does this mean you are controlling the thoughts or are the thoughts just happening?
Did you give up trying with a thought, which made a decision or did you just stop trying and then thought happened to say that you just stopped trying?

Is there any control over anything happening?

It feels as though there is a me who is deciding whether to respond now, exercise more thought, delay, etc.

Was there a decision made or it happened and then thoughts came in to say it made a decision?
Without thought is there any concept of a decision that needs to be made?
Did you decide to breathe or did your Heart beat because you decided for it to beat?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

I see that these are all the same question. What comes up for me is that I, Roxanne, can certainly accept the premise that sensation comes, then thought pulls up behind to take credit. I can establish (probably) a new belief about it based on trust that you know a fact, but how do I see directly that that's the case?

In the exercise of noticing thought, and gaps between thought, there is no volition. That seems easy to see. Thinking a subject through (or dropping it) feels different. If a body finds itself in mechanical engineering classes, then thoughts of force, torque, etc. arise, it's hard for me to see that there is no will involved, that specific topics of thought simply happen. Then an exam occurs and thoughts focused on a topic simply arise for 90 minutes, then abate.

I have no interest in being stubborn on this topic. I want to see what's happening. Thank you for persisting.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

I see that these are all the same question. What comes up for me is that I, Roxanne, can certainly accept the premise that sensation comes, then thought pulls up behind to take credit. I can establish (probably) a new belief about it based on trust that you know a fact, but how do I see directly that that's the case?

Don't Believe a word I write.
Question everything, first you have to question the truth about you.
Find what is, through this questioning.

Without thought, there is no belief, no concept, no story......Don't believe me, Have a LOOK for yourself. Is this True?

I have no interest in being stubborn on this topic. I want to see what's happening. Thank you for persisting.

I will persist as long as you do, and its a pleasure.

You didn't answer any of the questions in my previous post,
Was this a choice or did thought tell a story about it being the same questions?

What is happening in the body right now as you read this Describe it please, is there heat and contraction, uncomfortable?


What thoughts are arising now as you read this?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Without thought, there is no belief, no concept, no story......Don't believe me, Have a LOOK for yourself. Is this True?

Yes, it's true.

Was this a choice or did thought tell a story about it being the same questions?

The same question persists. Is it a chicken, or is it an egg? Was there thought about your questions? Of course. If there were no thought, my answer would look like ;djjjjjjjjjjjjfa;;;;;; because there could be no thought to answer the question. How are we having this conversation without thought?

What is happening in the body right now as you read this Describe it please, is there heat and contraction, uncomfortable?

Yes, tightness in the solar plexus and chest. Heat.

What thoughts are arising now as you read this?

"Why is Paul not answering my question about thought? What is meant to happen here? Will there be no Roxanne with the capacity to do a crossword puzzle?"

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

Was this a choice or did thought tell a story about it being the same questions?

The same question persists. Is it a chicken, or is it an egg? Was there thought about your questions? Of course. If there were no thought, my answer would look like ;djjjjjjjjjjjjfa;;;;;; because there could be no thought to answer the question. How are we having this conversation without thought?

The guiding is to direct you into a seeing something different that isn't what you are conditioned to do. It's not more of the same, thoughts and emotional feelings (Sensations and thought stories) we are looking past that and LOOKING to the body for what is actually happening , in Direct Experience.

What is happening in the body right now as you read this Describe it please, is there heat and contraction, uncomfortable?

Yes, tightness in the solar plexus and chest. Heat.

Now that you have found a strong body sensation in DE you can be familiar with it and direct your attention to this sensation and being with the body experiencing it directly. Become intimate with this sensation and you will start to notice things that weren't noticeable before because thought stories clouded the seeing.

What thoughts are arising now as you read this?

"Why is Paul not answering my question about thought? What is meant to happen here? Will there be no Roxanne with the capacity to do a crossword puzzle?"

There is no answer that I can give you that would make you feel like I have answered a burning question. Every answer would be derived by thought (my thought) and be perceived by thought (your thought) and therefore would only leave you with a stronger tightening and contraction in the solar plexus. Your experiencing has to be your own.

We will need to go back over a few things and LOOK a little deeper, through the veil of thought.

Thought exercise
Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

They seem to come from nowhere, they vanish, and seem to disappear.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I did not, in this exercise.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

I don't know; I didn't try. I simply did the exercise.

Can you predict your next thought?

Not during the exercise as practiced.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I don't know. I was not trying to select thoughts. Also, I don't know what might be "pleasant" or otherwise - they all seem to be devoid of sensation.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

It feels as though I can choose. Or maybe it seems that the thoughts are not, themselves, painful, negative, or fearful.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,
Apologies for the delayed response, but I posted last week, and the forum site is playing up, so it must not have come through.
Not to worry.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

They seem to come from nowhere, they vanish, and seem to disappear.

Do you have any control over thoughts at anytime?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I don't know. I was not trying to select thoughts. Also, I don't know what might be "pleasant" or otherwise - they all seem to be devoid of sensation.

This is an opportunity to see whether a connection between thoughts and sensations exists and what that connection is.
Is there a connection? If so, can you describe that in detail, please?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

It feels as though I can choose. Or maybe it seems that the thoughts are not, themselves, painful, negative, or fearful.

Look, think a thought and see if you chose to think it or if it just came. Right now, just look my direction is to think a thought. Did you choose what you thought about or even to think?

Think of 3 Movies

Did you think of them, or did they just appear?

Can you predict your next thought?

Not during the exercise as practiced.

Can you predict your next thought at any time? If so, what is it?


Isn't the prediction a thought itself?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

No worries.

Do you have any control over thoughts at anytime?

It seems as though I do, as in my example of prolonged focus on concentration on a single topic.

This is an opportunity to see whether a connection between thoughts and sensations exists and what that connection is.
Is there a connection? If so, can you describe that in detail, please?

There seems to be a strong connection. When I have a thought-story, the sensation can be very strong, but when I separate the bodily sensation from the thought, the sensation is (nearly) non-existent. Like the "emotion" is 95% thought.

Look, think a thought and see if you chose to think it or if it just came. Right now, just look my direction is to think a thought. Did you choose what you thought about or even to think?

It seems that I did not choose what to think.

Think of 3 Movies

Did you think of them, or did they just appear?

The first one simply arose. After that, it felt like volition was involved to think of two more.

Can you predict your next thought at any time? If so, what is it?

No, I can't.

Isn't the prediction a thought itself?

Ah! Yes, that's just what it is.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

Do you have any control over thoughts at anytime?

It seems as though I do, as in my example of prolonged focus on concentration on a single topic.

Have a look at this example, please, what had the prolonged focus on a single topic?

was this a continuous prolonged single thought or was it a series of infinitely small thoughts strung together to tell a story of a prolonged focus?

Can you do this now, try it, choose a subject in your thoughts and continuously think about it, let me know how long you did it and how long you successfully chose to stay focused on a single subject, detail this, please.

There seems to be a strong connection. When I have a thought-story, the sensation can be very strong, but when I separate the bodily sensation from the thought, the sensation is (nearly) non-existent. Like the "emotion" is 95% thought.

what is an emotion? describe using Direct experience please