Ready

[Anki]

This is the start of a new story - beware!

Ahhh, got that Vince.

How can no-thing live ?

No-thing.. yes, it cannot be alive... I am not sure at all what was meant by this, I am feeling now that it is a distortion and untrue.

brain conditioning (habit) explains this.

Oh Yes! See this I do. Makes perfect sense. That's a relief. I abruptly feel more accepting of doing that. Thought I was somehow 'wrong'.

These expectations, do you have any foundation IN YOUR EXPERIENCE to consider that this might be how it will be ?
This looks like second hand knowledge that is being woven into a new story. INVESTIGATE.

OH BOY! YES! Second hand knowledge becomes a story. I see absolutely that I am doing that. Wow. Would never have seen that on my own, Vince. I do it all the time! And now I get that I am trying to 'explain' to myself something that I have not yet experienced.

I have NO experience in what was being described. NONE. When I fully 'get' it all... it will be as it will be for me. MY experience, not something I've imagined or heard about from someone else. This reminds me of what you said several posts ago: "When every experience in your life so far has led you to this point - absolutely inique - why would you even consider that your experiencing liberation might be even similar to any other body ?"

OK.. my experience will be just that: MINE. Good.

So where am I now? Meaning... sometimes I'm experience 'it', sometimes not. I am sure there is no 'me', but it feels more like a belief than an experience. Maybe most of this is still intellectualization. What say you, Vince?

[vinceschubert]

but it feels more like a belief than an experience. Maybe most of this is still intellectualization

Let me paraphrase this and see what emerges;
but it {feels = has sensations} more like a {belief = thought/collection of thoughts} than an {experience = describe what you think experience of this would be like] . Maybe most if {this = describe this} is still {intellectualization = thoughts}

[Anki]

but it {feels = has sensations} more like a {belief = thought/collection of thoughts} than an {experience = describe what you think experience of this would be like] . Maybe most if {this = describe this} is still {intellectualization = thoughts}

Well... hmmm... I really like your paraphrasing, Vince.

OK.. First of all, I see now that your description of a belief (thought/collection of thoughts) puts to rest part of my sensory dilemma (yes,sensory is the better description)... I can now say that it feels NOT as much like a belief as I described... my current experience of this no-self thing is more than a collection of thoughts, yes.

What do I think an experience of this (liberation) would be like? Let me ponder... back soon...

[Anki]

{experience = describe what you think experience of this would be like] . Maybe most if {this = describe this} is still {intellectualization = thoughts}

OK... I have had ideas of what this experience would be like. I am not sure now why I thought them. I'm assuming that they are from reading others' experiences and ideas. I formed an image of it all.

What I think I am still holding onto is an expectation that I will notice something LARGE, a big shift of some sort. I had ideas about what that shift would be, or maybe just what it would be labeled, and now am down to just an idea of a shift.

Past that idea, I am seeing that all my descriptions of what this experience would be like are just that, ideas. OK. Good to know.

"..describe this", my current experience: I am not experiencing a 'me' like I did before. I can't really say what it is I experience, but it is not Lisa. I have increasing times of no thoughts, or at the very least no memories of having had thoughts. I look for them, say from the previous half hour of time, and can't seem to find them. Nice.

I also have a continuing identification with certain thoughts that come up rapidly and strong, 'negative' ones, and the next thing I know I am in tremendous fear. These are thoughts that are generated around one subject which I have been 'dealing with' for a few months, a painful one. Very. Childhood trauma. I am clear that the content of these thoughts is not the issue, that it is my identification with them that is significant. I am wondering if because they are so very very painful and personal they might be coming up as a portal of sorts.

So, in a nutshell: while there is still identification with painful thoughts, there is less identification with thoughts in general. Also more awareness of the fact of no-self... in a feeling form, not a collection of thoughts (belief).

Those were good questions, Vince. Helped me clarify to myself.

[vinceschubert]

is this experience is anywhere outside this (your) mind/body?

they might be coming up as a portal of sorts.

It will all come up and evaporate with various amounts of pain (and lessening amounts of suffering) sooner or later.
Check your expectation about whether your thoughts say that you have to earn release from them (personal = your thoughts) by suffering = telling yourself = having repetitive thoughts about what hurt when you thought about it in the past = having expectations that it must repeat that hurt.

[Anki]

is this experience is anywhere outside this (your) mind/body?

I don't understand this question. I mean, I get it that you are asking if my experience is outside of my body/mind, but that makes no sense to me. Help?

And I'll ponder the rest...

[Anki]

having expectations that it must repeat that hurt.

Well, this pretty much hits it. Yes, repeat that hurt. Definitely. I am in touch with the part of 'me' that insists that the outer will 'get better' if .... what? I wait, I hope, I behave? Ridiculous.

As I look at the above I realize I wrote '... the part of me', which seems to make no sense. How can there be a part to something that does not exist? So I am rewriting that sentence to say 'I am recognizing the thoughts that insist that ...'

That seems to be more accurate.

I am much more aware of my attachment to the painful thoughts than I was a week ago. They come up so quickly and I have a type of automatic attachment somehow. If I am having expectations that the hurt must be repeated, which I do, then that explains, at least partially, why I attach so quickly. It's a 'must' repeat. Yuck.

Not sure where to go next, Vince...

[vinceschubert]

We're not going anywhere - it's all here. Now.
What is the mechanism of 'attachment'

[Anki]

Hmmm... my 'automatic attachment'... what is the mechanism of that....

pondering... it is like a suction, the thought/feeling comes and then whoomp! I am sucked into it... it happens so fast.

How, though? Ahh... getting some clarity... the thought/feeling comes through and I WANT IT.. oh wow.. I WANT to have that thought and its icky attached feeling... this is so weird to know!

Why would I want THAT? It is familiar, it is the compelling core of my story, it is a bunch of bullshit and I STILL want it!

I am floored here. OK... what else? Why do I still want that icky core of my story? Why not just let the thought/feeling of it go through? OHHHH.... just like you asked me in the previous post... why repeat the pain? THAT's what I am doing... I repeat the pain of my childhood everytime I attach to that icky core of my story... and I am repeating it because I believe IT WILL CHANGE, that by simply standing still, not going anywhere and endlessly repeating that familiar pain IT WILL TRANSFORM. I am delusional, clearly!!!!

This is amazing... really amazing... the core revealed...

[vinceschubert]

Why would I want THAT? It is familiar, it is the compelling core of my story, it is a bunch of bullshit and I STILL want it!

You can only have more thoughts about that. Only add to the story.
It's weird, but it IS, and there is no reason to think more about it.(although the mind - thoughts, are obsessive about giving purpose/meaning to everything)
It is a type of addiction, and there may be withdrawals but it belongs in the story. Nothing to do with you.

I am delusional

Lisa's story certainly had delusional elements (how normal!)

Lisa, go back to the post about the sweet spot.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... t=30#p3688

[Anki]

It is a type of addiction, and there may be withdrawals but it belongs in the story. Nothing to do with you.

Yes.. nothing at all to do with me.. an addiction for sure. Thank you for pointing out that tidbit.. VERY good to see!

Sleep time here, Vince.. will look for that sweet spot again tomorrow and report back... :)))

Nite... thanks for everything....

[Anki]

Unable to find the sweet spot Vince. I am going back to basic stuff... been looking inside for the 'me'. Can't find it.
But no 'Aha' about it... no reaction at all, really. I do not think it is real, yet its unreality does not seem 'real' to me either. Agh...

[vinceschubert]

Ok, let's not call it a sweet spot.
Is there a 'place' where you can see that everything that IS, is all that is, Now ?
That is that the temperature is what it is.
The breeze or lack of it is just the way it is.
The vegetation is just as it is.
Thoughts just appear then disappear.
To do, or think, to welcome or to deny anything just adds to what IS, But it's still just what it is.
The mind/body with the label Lisa is what it is.
So to watch and welcome the breeze or the trees or thoughts doesn't add or overlay reality, it allows it to be as it IS.
Do you have a recognition if this ?

[Anki]

Hi Vince... I was having trouble with this... could not quite understand what you were getting at and felt frustrated so I kept coming back and looking at it. Now I think I have a response.

I am recognizing that things are as they are. They are not affected by me, but yes, I can add to the overall somehow. It will all be as it is regardless of what I think, do , say, etc. It just IS.

The mind/body with the label Lisa, yes, that IS. It has no self, however. It is a part of reality, but without the self 'inside'. The self has been looked for, and not found. That's as far as I've gotten, it seems.

[vinceschubert]

Now I think I have a response

Are these just words ?
You think you have a response.
Language is inadequate for this new paradigm and we have to tolerate 'pointing' to meanings.

I am recognizing that things are as they are

Is this recognition at an intellectual level or is it an Aha! type recognition ?

That's as far as I've gotten, it seems

Implicit in this sentence is a statement that you haven't gone very far... an expectation of a finish line.
Do you spontaneously see thoughts arise without identifying with them ?
Have they taken on an objective quality ?
Are you able to have thoughts that don't suck you into their content ?