Hello...?

[AskingMonkey]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the "self" that has so far seemed the center of my existence is just a story. Experience just "is", but there is no-one separate from it "experiencing" it.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to find out TRUTH. I want to find out what is true and wake up from delusion. And lessen my ("my") suffering. More specifically, I want to see clearly that there is no separate "self"... and then find out for myself what that entails.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect I will be asked questions and will be given assignments, and I will make my most honest effort to reflect on these and come back with my results. I expect that I will be asked to question my currently held beliefs and look closely at my experience in honest, direct terms.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practiced Buddhism for 10 years at a very traditional monastery in the Chinese tradition. I also have a little bit of experience with a non-dual teacher in the vein of Ekhart Tolle (being present and all that).

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Steve101]

Hi, My name is Steve and I can be your guide, if you would like.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day.. If you need more time, or are unable to post for a couple of days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on Direct or actual experience (DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What will be missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

[AskingMonkey]

Hi Steve! I'm Omar. Very nice to meet you. Thank you so much for agreeing with helping me in this process. I feel very grateful. My timezone is European time (Madrid).

I have read the disclaimer and what "LU is not".

Ok, onto the questions.

How will life change?

I expect there will be less suffering and more clarity as to what's really going on.

How will you change?

I have no idea, actually.

What will be different?

I think experience itself will remain... experience, but the way it's seen will be different as it's not interpreted as being "mine" anymore.

What will be missing?

Just a bunch of unnecessary suffering and struggling against what is, hopefully.



These are my honest answers. I'm looking forward to continuing this exploration.

[Steve101]

Hi Omar, it’s good to meet you. Your expectations seem perfectly reasonable. We may refer back to them just to clarify certain points but leave them aside for the moment as they will only serve to cloud your vision of what will only ever be available to you in present.

There are many ways I can tell you about the false self so that eventually you will see this for yourself. I will use what we call ‘pointers’ to help you. Sometimes, I will have to repeat myself but that’s ok. There will be times when you don't really hear what’s being said, your thoughts crowd out the very ability to listen to direction.

You may become frustrated with this direction and walk away from our inquiry thinking that the pointer can't be of much use. You assume that the person giving it is just wrong about what it is you need to hear in order to see this.

There's a reason why the ultimate pointer given below in red is the most effective there is. It's direct. Blunt. It leaves no room for discussion, no room for your illusion of self to pick over and critique and my role is to end the discussion entirely.

While a dialogue may help you to UNDERSTAND what's being said, that understanding isn't what's going to get this done. I'll tell you what will and I'll give it my best shot, knowing that it's worked for many people. Here it is, so listen up.

Just Look.

That's it. It's the best and most thorough pointer you're going to find if you could just stop long enough to do what's directed.

Now, you have to ask yourself this... how is it that this pointer can be it? The one. Everything. The KEY? As we progress please just ask that question. Test it out. Tear it up. How is that IT? Question everything! Yes, question everything. Question your own thoughts, beliefs, emotions: Is that true?

As this process unfolds you may find that your answers to my questions and pointers tend to be short and concise but as you begin to get into the habit of looking and questioning what comes up the floodgates start to open. You will even begin to question your own answers extrapolating your own logic and finally seeing one of life’s great truths, there never was a separate self.

When you really LOOK…the truth will come flooding in.

How is that true? In what way is that true?

When the answer comes, just stop and allow it in. Then scan that brain for all of the teachings which say that this is simple. Childlike. Humble. Think of all the accounts of those who've 'gotten it' and said that they couldn't believe how simple it is. And the look of wonder? It's not because they're suddenly seeing pixie dust or rainbows. It's because they stopped to follow the directive, and then they saw the truth of REALITY AS IT IS.

When the realisation of the truth finally hits there may be this huge realisation or most likely it will be just a subtle shift in perception.

Are you ready to begin?

[AskingMonkey]

Hello Steve.

First of all, let me just say I feel profoundly moved by the fact that you would dedicate your time and energy to writing such a detailed message for helping someone you don't even know. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Are you ready to begin?

Absolutely... actually... I have a question about this. I don't know if I already "crossed the gate or not". Prior to becoming registered in the LU forum I was reading Elona's book and listening to her podcast and for a few days I became more or less obsessed with the idea of "just looking" and realizing there's no self... so I started doing it. I was very struck by how obvious this direction of "just looking" is, and yet how easily I have missed it in the past, instead elaborating vast edifices of conceptual speculation around "spirituality". So I started to just focus on my experience as it was happening, and trying to find a self, which I indeed didn't find.

I don't think I had any specific "big moment" where a realization hit me, but I do notice that the way I experience things has kind of shifted since I started doing this. It's not even that things have become particularly pleasant —in fact, just after seriously starting this exploration I started to be in a very, very bad mood for a few days, almost as if something in me was becoming very uncomfortable with this shift—, but I notice that the idea of an independent self has kind of "dropped" from my mind. Whereas before it was constantly there, always asking whether "it" is good enough, whether it is "good" enough, always trying to "improve" itself, judge itself, etc., now I don't detect any thoughts around this anymore. There's just experience happening...

However, even after experiencing this shift, I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Perhaps the idea of the self is still there in a subtle way? I don't want to be too quick in thinking that I have "crossed the gate" just yet.

I would really appreciate your feedback on this.

Thank you,

Omar

[Steve101]

i Omar, thank you for your honesty and openness.

First of all, let me just say I feel profoundly moved by the fact that you would dedicate your time and energy to writing such a detailed message for helping someone you don't even know. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

You are more than welcome Omar. Guiding others is a reminder of how lucky I am to have experienced this realisation.

I don't think I had any specific "big moment" where a realization hit me, but I do notice that the way I experience things has kind of shifted since I started doing this

For me, it was fireworks but I had been earnestly seeking for more than half a century so it was a very profound moment. However, for many the realisation manifests itself as just a subtle shift in perception. What I have learned from my own experience is that I cannot put into words what the essence of the realisation is because it is defies description. I can only point towards what is real and thereby facilitate a ‘knowing beyond words’ that leaves no room for doubt.

Whereas before it was constantly there, always asking whether "it" is good enough, whether it is "good" enough, always trying to "improve" itself, judge itself, etc.

Yes, this maybe a symptom that you no longer have the virus (ok kidding kind of). Over the years I have spent thousands of pounds on courses and bought hundreds of self-improvement books only to discover that I didn’t have self to improve!

However, even after experiencing this shift, I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Perhaps the idea of the self is still there in a subtle way? I don't want to be too quick in thinking that I have "crossed the gate" just yet.

Ok, give me a little time to carefully consider this as I can tell that you are much further ‘down the line’ than the average client. I think that we should start on the more advanced pointers. I am however, going to quickly cover the basics so that we both have a common frame of reference that we can use to communicate.

Proceeding in this manner will enable you to gain complete clarity about where you are in relation to the gate and should deepen your understanding of the illusion of self. It will also give you an appreciation of some of the process should you wish to guide others.

Is this ok with you?

[AskingMonkey]

Is this ok with you?

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

[Steve101]

Hi Omar, ok, take a look at the exercise below. It’s important for you to be completely clear on Direct Experience (DE).

DIRECT EXPERIENCE

HOW TO BECOME CLEAR WHEN LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE OF A 'SELF'
There is a BIG difference between intellectual/conceptual knowing that the ‘self’ is an illusion and real seeing that it is an illusion.

If you can’t SEE for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

COLOURED SOCKS
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guess what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you can be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in those two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS:

Seeing just happening
Hearing just happening
Feeling or Sensing (without naming emotion as this is sensation plus thoughts/labels) just happening
Tasting just happening
Smelling just happening
Cognising or Thinking (but not the content of thinking. Thinking about content is just more thinking and diverts you from the direct experience).

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Direct Experience is not conceptual or made of thought. Experiencing happens before thought arrives to describe or explain it. The moment we attempt to communicate experience we introduce concepts. We then respond or identify with those concepts.


DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, at breakfast, become aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee. You would then report exactly in the example below

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with your own list exactly like the one above. The point is to learn the difference between Actual / Direct Experience and the content of thought, which is an overlay on the DE.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please, using the same word forms/layout of your direct experiencing.

[AskingMonkey]

Hello Steve,

Sorry for the delay in my response, I have been traveling around.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

This is very clear, thank you.

I have been doing this a few times in the past couple of days. Today while eating breakfast:

Seeing the cup of coffee = image/color
Smelling the food = smell
Feeling the food in my mouth = sensation
Tasting the food = taste
Thoughts labeling sensations = thought

Yesterday while eating lunch:

Seeing the focaccia with cheese = seeing
Feeling the food in my mouth = sensation
Smelling the food = smell
Feeling my body in the chair = sensation
Thinking about directly experiencing things = thought

Today as I type this on the computer:

Seeing the computer screen and the bar around me = sight/forms/colors
Hearing the noises in the cafe = sound
Feeling my body against the chair and my hands against the keyboard = sensation
Thinking about directly experiencing things = thought
Thoughts that label experience as certain things = thought

I can see how "sticky" thoughts are as they immediately attach to any experience and begin labeling and making a story about it, but it is also very clear that this is very different from "just looking" directly at what is actually happening in terms of actual sensations/perceptions.

[Steve101]

Hi Omar,

but it is also very clear that this is very different from "just looking" directly at what is actually happening in terms of actual sensations/perceptions.

Yes, absolutely Omar, it is very different from just looking which is the ideal. I just had to make sure that you had a real handle on DE before we moved on.

It is good to be aware that as we move through exercises and discussions there will sometimes just be points at which we experience aha moments and just ‘get it.’ This is how ‘knowing’ or ‘insight’ works. We sometimes look at a problem and look at a problem and look at a problem and get frustrated and then back away from it and when we back away or take a break from the problem space is created for insight to enter and then we just ‘see’.

Mind Labeling Experience


The mind has a tendency to label things that it focuses on. In the course of your normal everyday life have you may have noticed that your mind names things and tells stories about them? When we acquire language the mind learns to label actions: “I walk”, “I talk”, “I breathe,” etc. If you change these labels to “walking,” “talking,” “breathing,” what happens? Is there a real “I” that takes those actions or is it just a case of, walking happening, talking happening, breathing happening? Is there an “I” in the breathing or doing the breathing?

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into two 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. What differences/changes in the body did you notice?

[AskingMonkey]

Hello Steve,

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second one is truer, because it's pointing directly at things as they are actually happening. For example, when there's looking at the computer screen, there definitely is "seeing" happening —shapes and colors are definitely being experienced. This is an undeniable fact, so saying that seeing is happening is completely true. However, when I say "I am seeing", it feels as if I were adding an unnecessary layer of complexity to experience. Seeing doesn't need an "I" for it to happen. It's as if the mind were trying to add something "extra" to experience. I kind of remember what it was like to interpret things as an "I" doing them, but this doesn't seem to be happening anymore, at least not in the explicit way it used to (though perhaps there are still subtle layers of "me-ness" in experience).

2. What is here without labels?

Experience. Seeing is arising. Sensations are arising. Thoughts are arising. They do not need to be labeled in order for them to happen.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They just describe it. Whether seeing/feeling/thinking, etc. is labeled as "mine" or not, it still arises. However, from the labeling a lot of further thoughts can start to proliferate, which are in turn experienced.

4. What differences/changes in the body did you notice?

I didn't notice that much difference because although I was writing "I see X, I feel Y" in the first exercise, it was hard to really experience that "me" as real. Like I had to make an effort to attach that sense of "I" to experience and it just felt like an unnecessary addition. Perhaps in the second part of the exercise there was a bit more "lightness".

[AskingMonkey]

I think the reason I'm not sure whether I have "crossed the gate" or not, is that although when I look at experience there doesn't seem to be a "me" there, there still seems to be a more subtle or "abstract" sense of "me-ness" that is present in thoughts. It's a bit hard to describe, but it feels like a subtle, almost immaterial presence that pervades my thinking.

There's a kind of discomfort with this process actually. As if I was stuck between two places. Like I took a step away from my previous experience, but I haven't fully arrived in the other side. I notice a lot of bad moods and even a kind of cynicism (and at the same time, I feel like I'm able to observe these feelings in a much more detached and accepting way than I used to before— I don't feel the same urge to make them go away in order to feel like "I'm" okay). It's very strange...

[Steve101]

Hi Omar,

I think the reason I'm not sure whether I have "crossed the gate" or not, is that although when I look at experience there doesn't seem to be a "me" there, there still seems to be a more subtle or "abstract" sense of "me-ness" that is present in thoughts. It's a bit hard to describe, but it feels like a subtle, almost immaterial presence that pervades my thinking.

I think that you are very close now and we are going to check this in the next pointer.

There's a kind of discomfort with this process actually. As if I was stuck between two places. Like I took a step away from my previous experience, but I haven't fully arrived in the other side.

This discomfort is completely natural and I have seen it before. We are so used to the same type of selfing thoughts coming up that we have become addicted to them in a way. Remember that emotions are just us feeling our thinking. If the thinking that relates to an illusory self is like an iceberg then labelled thought is just the tip. what lies below the surface is our unseen selfing thoughts that can cause discomfort as we begin to shine the light of pure awareness on them when we look directly at our experience.

The next pointer is one of my favourites.

[Steve101]

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold your hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now flip your palm over and then back over and then back over again...and so on.

Watch it very closely:

Don't go to thoughts – examine your actual experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ be found in or behind the eyes?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Now using labeled thought, give your hand the command to flip over but DO NOT act on the thought, do nothing. What happens?

Now do the same but DO NOT think about it, just have AN IMPULSE to flip the hand to the over. What happens?

Who or what chose which hand (left or right) for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[AskingMonkey]

Hello Steve,

I was doing this exercise yesterday and I became very dizzy. It's all very strange. I really don't know how to answer these questions.

Is there a controller? —I don't know. The intention to move is definitely coming from somewhere. It's clearly not a thought, though. I can see how the intention to move and thought are different. But then, where does the intention no move come from? There seems to be a "me-ness" there claiming ownership for the action. I mean, the body is clearly not just moving on its own... but then what could there "be" that's giving it instructions?

I feel as if I was on the edge of an abyss and feel a sense of existential trepidation.

Don't I have free will? (but then who is this "I" who would be the agent of the free will?)

There's a part of me that doesn't want to look: I don't want to give up the feeling that I am in control of my life. It would be terrifying. What could it all mean? How could there not be free will?

I feel some fear is arising...