Seeking ongoing self-inquiry guidance until it's complete

[ennio]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is an illusion. An image. A mental construct. It's entirely imaginary and empty of any real existence. It can't be located. It can't be touched, tasted, smelled, heard, or seen. I've tried and I can't find it.

What are you looking for at LU?
Conceptually and intellectually I understand that the self is void of any inherent existence but I don't know this experientially yet. That is what I'm trying to investigate and see clearly for "myself". That is what I'd like help with from LU. I've had glimpses of this sense of self dissolving but not in a lasting way. My investigation hasn't yielded any fruits that have been enough to "pop" the illusion of this sense of self. As a result, I still suffer greatly from my belief in it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping for direct pointers. Someone to point directly to where I need to look and investigate further. Someone to talk through the repeated challenges I'm currently facing pertaining to my ways of looking. Someone to reflect my experience and/or shed light on it based on their own.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been a practicing Buddhist for the past 2 years. I've completed several high tantric and vipassana retreats. However, recently, I've started to feel a disconnect with some of it. Particularly the aspects of identifying with it as another label for myself.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[warissem]

Hi ennio

I am glad to accompany you to see through the belief of a separate self.

There are some rules to agree with, before starting our dialog :

Read the disclaimer text here
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books, videos about this investigation.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Best wishes

Warissem

[ennio]

Hi warrisem!

Thank you for agreeing to support me along this journey.

I’ve read the disclaimer text and the LU FAQ section that you linked to.

Here are my responses to your questions:

How will life change?

I can’t say for certain and I am sure it will look and feel very different than anything I say now, but I imagine life will feel “truer”. Not better or worse necessarily, but it will finally feel exactly as it is. And it won’t be just a thought but a deep knowing. I see my relationships changing more than they already have because my interactions won’t be filtered through a distorted lens. The sense of self will be diminished so the need to act or be a certain way that is deemed acceptable by others will also lesson, I assume, because there will no longer be a belief in a self that needs to be protected or maintained.

How will you change?

I imagine the many ways I move through the world will be different. The way I view objects in the environment. The way I label some things as beautiful and others as not beautiful. Labels altogether will likely drop as a result of this process because they’ll probably lose all meaning. And if this happens, all that’s left is the direct, raw, unfiltered experience of reality. That’s the truth that I want to see and consequently know.

What will be different?

The story of me will be seen and known for what it is — just a story. I still sometimes feel the need to make the story of me “better” somehow. I do this by telling myself more “I” stories. “Once I lose a bit of weight I will be accepted (by others and myself)” “Once I become enlightened suffering will end” “Once I do X, something better will happen for me”. I’ve noticed that this line of thinking is a bottomless pit though. This keeps me in that striving, seeking energy. I imagine once the sense of self goes, then it naturally makes room for more contentment in the life. Less storytelling set in the future and more presence. Even as I writer this though, this all feels like I’m telling myself another story because there’s a part of me that believes this is what will or may happen.

What is missing?

I want to say nothing is missing but that doesn’t feel “true”. Intellectually, I think I understand that I am already that which I seek, therefore nothing is missing here. But it definitely feels like there is something missing. Like I’m missing out on seeing what’s around me clearly because the resolution of reality is quite low. I’m missing out on all of the rich details. But I understand that things are exactly as they are and I am exactly as I am, and nothing is missing per se, but it probably feels that way because of my belief in an inherently existing, separate self. The self feels like something is missing here, and if I can just obtain that thing, then I (she) will be whole. Once I see through this illusion, I’ll likely see clearly that nothing is missing.


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[warissem]

Hi ennio

I can’t say for certain and I am sure it will look and feel very different than anything I say now, but I imagine life will feel “truer”. Not better or worse necessarily, but it will finally feel exactly as it is. And it won’t be just a thought but a deep knowing.

Yes, it could be.

I see my relationships changing more than they already have because my interactions won’t be filtered through a distorted lens.

Yes, but the lenses (beliefs, old habits, conditioning) won’t fall down in the blink of an eye even after seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

The sense of self will be diminished so the need to act or be a certain way that is deemed acceptable by others will also lesson, I assume, because there will no longer be a belief in a self that needs to be protected or maintained.

There is no sense of self to diminish because there is no separate self here now to begin with.

I imagine the many ways I move through the world will be different. The way I view objects in the environment. The way I label some things as beautiful and others as not beautiful. Labels altogether will likely drop as a result of this process because they’ll probably lose all meaning. And if this happens, all that’s left is the direct, raw, unfiltered experience of reality. That’s the truth that I want to see and consequently know.

I don’t want to deceive you but this “I” which wants a lot of things will be seen as non existent.

The story of me will be seen and known for what it is — just a story. I still sometimes feel the need to make the story of me “better” somehow. I do this by telling myself more “I” stories. “Once I lose a bit of weight I will be accepted (by others and myself)” “Once I become enlightened suffering will end” “Once I do X, something better will happen for me”. I’ve noticed that this line of thinking is a bottomless pit though. This keeps me in that striving, seeking energy. I imagine once the sense of self goes, then it naturally makes room for more contentment in the life. Less storytelling set in the future and more presence. Even as I writer this though, this all feels like I’m telling myself another story because there’s a part of me that believes this is what will or may happen.

Yes, as you said it, all of this are stories.

I want to say nothing is missing but that doesn’t feel “true”. Intellectually, I think I understand that I am already that which I seek, therefore nothing is missing here. But it definitely feels like there is something missing. Like I’m missing out on seeing what’s around me clearly because the resolution of reality is quite low. I’m missing out on all of the rich details. But I understand that things are exactly as they are and I am exactly as I am, and nothing is missing per se, but it probably feels that way because of my belief in an inherently existing, separate self. The self feels like something is missing here, and if I can just obtain that thing, then I (she) will be whole. Once I see through this illusion, I’ll likely see clearly that nothing is missing.

There is nothing to obtain, absolutely nothing. It is just a falling of the belief in a separate self.

Ponder on my comments and let me know what arises as feelings and thoughts when you read this :

There is no separate self, no you, in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.

Best for you

[ennio]

There was a bit of resistance to this in the mind. Not that I don’t believe it to be true but my mind is trying to prove to itself that it’s true by poking holes in it. The question I keep coming back to is “if there’s no self then what is there?” If there is no separate self then is there just one “big Self” (that being consciousness/awareness itself)?

I spent the evening sitting with your comments and I was able to determine that the self isn’t perceivable at all. Even my initial statement about there being a “sense of self” was called into question. There isn’t even a sense of self because I don’t know what the self is. It almost seems like the only thing keeping the belief in the self alive is the word “self” itself.

This is as far as I got because I keep getting stuck at the part where if there is no separate self or self at all (and I can grasp this intellectually) then what is it that I’m believing in? Why can’t I see/know this experientially?


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[warissem]

Hi ennio

You have done a good investigation knowing that you are familiar with vipassana.

This is as far as I got because I keep getting stuck at the part where if there is no separate self or self at all (and I can grasp this intellectually) then what is it that I’m believing in?

We are looking at this "I" which pretends to be stuck, at this "I" which pretends to grasp things intellectually, at this "I" which pretends to believe things.

Why can’t I see/know this experientially

?
What is this "I", in direct experience, which pretends to not know?
Direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations.

Are concepts needed to be here now?
Are concepts needed to be aware?
Are concepts needed for "all what is" to be here now?

What is = five senses appearances, thoughts, feelings, emotions, ....

Waiting for your insights.

[ennio]

Hi Warissem,

Thank you for your reply. It gave me a lot to sit with.

We are looking at this "I" which pretends to be stuck, at this "I" which pretends to grasp things intellectually, at this "I" which pretends to believe things.

What is this "I", in direct experience, which pretends to not know?
Direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations.

Are concepts needed to be here now?
Are concepts needed to be aware?
Are concepts needed for "all what is" to be here now?

What is = five senses appearances, thoughts, feelings, emotions, ....

Waiting for your insights.

[/quote]



Concepts cannot be perceived whereas whatever is here in direct experience can be.
It wouldn’t be a direct experience if I was relying on a concept, an abstract idea.

I could tell that as I said “I” there was/is a real belief in it. I say it in my head but I feel it in my gut.

Whatever this is is having a hard time understanding that if there is no perceivable I or self then what is there. What is happening. And even tho I’ve now verified that there is no perceivable I or self in direct experience, there’s still a belief in them. I’m still taking things personally.

[ennio]

Hi Warissem!

Apologies, you can disregard my last post. I pressed enter on my keyboard, trying to create another line in my post, and it ended up submitting the whole thing before I was finished formatting it properly with the quote tags. I’m still getting the hang of this platform lol.

As I mentioned, you gave me a lot to think about.

We are looking at this "I" which pretends to be stuck, at this "I" which pretends to grasp things intellectually, at this "I" which pretends to believe things.

What is this "I", in direct experience, which pretends to not know?
Direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations.

I realized that “I” is just another thought. Another belief. Another concept. At the moment the only thing I can point to as the closest thing that there ever was of a self or I is the mental image that I create every time I refer to myself. Does that make sense?

There is no I in direct experience because I can’t point to it or locate it. Because it’s just a concept (belief & thought). It isn’t anywhere. It cannot be perceived.

Are concepts needed to be here now?
Are concepts needed to be aware?
Are concepts needed for "all what is" to be here now?

Concepts are abstract ideas. Ideas are more thoughts, essentially. intangible things. Concepts cannot be perceived whereas whatever is here in direct experience can be.

It wouldn’t be a direct experience if I was relying on a concept, an abstract idea.

As I sat with your prompts, I could tell that as I said the word “I”, there was/is a real belief in it still.

Whatever this is, whatever “I” am, is having a hard time understanding that if there is no perceivable I or self then what is there? What is happening? And even though I’ve now verified that there is no perceivable I or self in direct experience, there’s still a belief in them. I’m still taking things personally.

[warissem]

Hi ennio

I will send my comments in the evening. Meanwhile, look if there is an I involved in daily activities.

Best for you

[warissem]

Good evening

I realized that “I” is just another thought.

There is no you to realize anything. Is it true?

Another belief. Another concept. At the moment the only thing I can point to as the closest thing that there ever was of a self or I is the mental image that I create every time I refer to myself. Does that make sense?

Are you sure that you are creating mental images or thoughts?

Observe thoughts and give answers to these questions :
Where are thoughts coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is there a thinker?

There is no I in direct experience because I can’t point to it or locate it. Because it’s just a concept (belief & thought). It isn’t anywhere. It cannot be perceived.

Yes, great to see this.

Concepts are abstract ideas. Ideas are more thoughts, essentially. intangible things. Concepts cannot be perceived whereas whatever is here in direct experience can be.

Yes, well said.

It wouldn’t be a direct experience if I was relying on a concept, an abstract idea.

Yes.

As I sat with your prompts, I could tell that as I said the word “I”, there was/is a real belief in it still.

This is an exercise, I invite you to do :

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?

Whatever this is, whatever “I” am, is having a hard time understanding that if there is no perceivable I or self then what is there?

Look at what is reading these words on the screen and you will see the answer.

What is happening?

Five senses experience and all the other stuff is thoughts. Do you see this clearly?

And even though I’ve now verified that there is no perceivable I or self in direct experience, there’s still a belief in them. I’m still taking things personally.

We are looking at the I which have verified : is there some entity saying "I" or is it just a thought?

Take each question separately, look at what is said and see the answer.

Best for you

[ennio]

Thank you Warissem! I will reply tomorrow with my insights :)


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[warissem]

Good morning ennio

Waiting for your insights

[ennio]

Hi Warrisem,

My apologies for the delayed response. I tried to reply yesterday evening but I’ve been having trouble getting onto the website for the past couple days.

Thank you so much for these pointers. They were very effective!

There is no you to realize anything. Is it true?

It’s true. “Im” not realizing anything. Because there is no I. Realization just happens.

There is still a bit of stickiness that wants to latch onto this belief in an I, me, and my. It’s like the mind is still fighting with itself. It wants to still poke holes and prove it to itself even though the exercises quite remarkably revealed the truth. It’s a bit irritating that the mind does this :P

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Thoughts appear from seemingly nowhere. I’ve heard them be compared to clouds before and now I see why. Whether they come on their own or I summon them by thinking about what I want to think about (for example I can call up a mental image of an apple on command, or even talk to myself in my head, and those thoughts are different from the thoughts that float in on their own - but they’re all the same in the sense that they appear seemingly on their own. no one is thinking them).

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

Is there a thinker?

No - “I’m” not the one thinking these thoughts, and since Im observing them come and go, there doesn’t appear to be any other thinker. The thoughts don’t come from someone else. When the mind is at rest, thoughts just arise and the mind becomes interested in them.

This is an exercise, I invite you to do :

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?

None of these are me. When I say it in my head it’s just a thought. When I write it down it’s no different than anything else that i see that isn’t me. When I say it aloud it’s just another sound - not me either. “I” has no inherent meaning. It’s no different than any of my other thoughts.

Look at what is reading these words on the screen and you will see the answer.

This one was a bit more difficult. Could we explore this further?

Five senses experience and all the other stuff is thoughts. Do you see this clearly?

I do see this clearly. Even my assumptions are just thoughts. And there are raw emotions and then the thoughts about the emotions. this was all seen clearly over the last few days.

[warissem]

Hi ennio

There is still a bit of stickiness that wants to latch onto this belief in an I, me, and my.

How can a concept or a sensation “stickiness” can do something? Do you see that all what is said above is a train of thoughts?

It’s like the mind is still fighting with itself. It wants to still poke holes and prove it to itself even though the exercises quite remarkably revealed the truth. It’s a bit irritating that the mind does this

What is the mind in direct experience?
Can a thought speak to another thought?
Can a thought want something?

No - “I’m” not the one thinking these thoughts, and since Im observing them come and go, there doesn’t appear to be any other thinker. The thoughts don’t come from someone else. You have done good observations of thoughts.

How do you feel to see that there is no you thinking thoughts?

When the mind is at rest, thoughts just arise and the mind becomes interested in them.

We need to clarify the meaning of “mind”. Once again what do you mean by “mind”?

None of these are me. When I say it in my head it’s just a thought. When I write it down it’s no different than anything else that i see that isn’t me. When I say it aloud it’s just another sound - not me either. “I” has no inherent meaning. It’s no different than any of my other thoughts.

Yes, you have seen that “I” is a thought, then what this “I” which is saying and writing?
You said “that isn’t me” : what is this “me” in direct experience? LOOK.

Look at what is reading these words on the screen and you will see the answer.

This one was a bit more difficult. Could we explore this further?

Is there you seeing the words on the screen or is there just seeing happening?
Is there you, ennio, doing something to understand or understanding is just happening?
Is there a gap between seeing the words and understanding them?
Give answers after looking at what is going on in direct experience.

I do see this clearly.

Great.

Even my assumptions are just thoughts.

They are not yours, look, there is no you, is it true?

Best for you

[ennio]

Hi warissem,

My apologies for the delay. Thank you so much for your patience!

How can a concept or a sensation “stickiness” can do something? Do you see that all what is said above is a train of thoughts?

I see that it’s a train of thought. It’s a belief. The belief in the separate self keeps on reemerging. And it happens subtly.

---

What is the mind in direct experience?

I’ve never actually asked myself what the mind is in direct experience. I always just assumed the mind to be a container for the thoughts; an infinite space that exists outside of time. But after looking, I can’t actually pinpoint it either. I can see the contents of what I assume to be the mind (I.e., thoughts), but I can’t perceive the mind itself.

So then I’m left with the question of what is it that is still wanting to grasp onto this belief in an “I”? What is it that is taking things personally still?

---

Can a thought speak to another thought?

No a thought can’t speak to another thought. Rather each thought appears as a distinct thought.

---

Can a thought want something?

No because in order for it to want something it would need to be alive and/or real. If a thought wanted something it would suggest that the thought itself is an entity.

---

How do you feel to see that there is no you thinking thoughts?

It is strange but also kind of cool! I’ve been observing over the past week how thoughts just arise and fall away on their own. I’ve also been observing how thoughts are all the same. They’re all made of the same “thought matter”.

One of the questions I keep returning to though is: if there is no me, I, or self, then how is it possible that I’m able to tell myself that I want to think about a certain topic (like an apple), and then I’m able to think of an apple? Where does that come from and how is it possible?

It almost feels like there is some mental process happening on top of the thinking (or somewhere behind the thinking) and it’s producing these thought images and sounds. But that mental process isn’t me.

The other question I keep returning to is: Just because I can’t perceive or find the I, me, or self, does that mean it doesn’t exist? It’s like if the tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it did it fall? [I might answer my own question here but is the point basically that if something isn’t perceivable in direct experience then it’s essentially another thought or hypothetical? In that case, using the tree analogy as an example, it’s not even necessarily about the tree falling at all, but about whether or not the tree even exists. We can’t say for sure if the tree even exists if we aren’t there to directly perceive the tree in the forest. All we’d be going off of is an assumption/belief. So I guess it’s the same with the self/I. If I can’t directly perceive it, then I can’t say for certain that it exists?]

---

We need to clarify the meaning of “mind”. Once again what do you mean by “mind”?

Sometimes when Im meditating, thoughts will come into focus, and it feels like “something” takes an interest in those thoughts. So much that the attention will shift from focusing on the breath or reciting a mantra, for example, to the seemingly interesting thought. So I suppose it’s not the mind itself that is becoming interested in the thoughts, but rather attention is moving between different mental objects that appear in the mind (awareness).

I can’t really point to mind. It feels like an omnipresent awareness. It’s everything and everywhere. That’s how it feels.

---

Yes, you have seen that “I” is a thought, then what this “I” which is saying and writing?
You said “that isn’t me” : what is this “me” in direct experience? LOOK.

Me feels like a separate physical appearance, the voice that comes out of me mouth, this body/person. There’s a belief that this me —this person — is so important. But then when I start to deconstruct it, I see that what I thought was me, isn’t me. And yet I still feel like there’s something here in the centre of everything, looking out into the world around it. Everything still feels self-referential. I’m still seeing the world as subject-object pairs. Even though I’m not really sure what me means anymore. It’s starting to lose its meaning.

Yesterday I observed how everything is connected. All physical objects, including people, and matter are connected. There is no boundary between the body and the visual field. So if that’s the case, there really can’t be a separate “me”. Me is a thought, just like the I.

---

Is there you seeing the words on the screen or is there just seeing happening?

Seeing is just happening — No one is doing it. However, in a way, it does still feel like seeing is happening through the lens of a separate subject, but only after the initial seeing takes place.

---

Is there you, ennio, doing something to understand or understanding is just happening?

The words are seen and understanding seems to just be happening.

---

Is there a gap between seeing the words and understanding them?

There doesn’t seem to be a gap. It’s just all a continuous and simultaneous process of seeing and understanding.

Warmly,