Interested in exploring self/no-self

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Thanks for the explanations.

All the impulse to change your experience is more about esthetics than anything else.
So there is complete freedom of trying to controle and organise your experience as you can and wish.

I don't think I understand this. It seems to conflict with the choice point - I don't feel like I CAN control and organize my experience. That is where the pain comes from.

The point it not how experience appear to be but what it is

Which is just the total thisness?

Do you like this format of Q&A or you prefer exercise?

This format is more satisfying intellectually and motivationally, but I think the exercises are more impactful long term.

Thank you.

[Windaway]

Hi Sergrey,

All the impulse to change your experience is more about aesthetics than anything else.
So there is complete freedom of trying to control and organize your experience as you can and wish.

I don't think I understand this. It seems to conflict with the choice point - I don't feel I CAN control and organize my experience. That is where the pain comes from.

This simply mean you have freedom of choice within the limits that are imposed on you.
But if that doen’t make sense to you, leave it asside.

So you agree that you have no choice?
How does it feel to realize that ?
Can you stay with this emotion ?

I think you are talking about suffering not pain right?
The suffering doesn’t come from the lake of control.
The suffering comes from the lack of acceptance of your experience.
And acceptance is inevitable when you realize the nature of WHAT IS.

The point is not how experience appears to be but what it is

Which is just the total thisness?

Yes, it is « just » the total thisness.

Do you like this format of Q&A or do you prefer exercise?

This format is more satisfying intellectually and motivationally, but I think the exercises are more impactful in the long term.

You are very attached to your intellect. Each time you keep following the stories your mind tells you.
I do my best to negotiate and find paths that can allow the tightness of the mind to lose a little, so you can see beyond. But at some point, you have to drop it. The mind will never understand or accept the nature of WHAT IS.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

So you agree that you have no choice?

Yes, although my agreement feels partial.

How does it feel to realize that ?

At once: relieving, demoralizing, doubtful.

Can you stay with this emotion ?

I tried to stay with it. Nothing notable happened.

I think you are talking about suffering not pain right?

Yes, the "second arrow."

You are very attached to your intellect. Each time you keep following the stories your mind tells you.
I do my best to negotiate and find paths that can allow the tightness of the mind to lose a little, so you can see beyond.

You are right. My mind's understanding is my safest way of existing for now. Thank you for finding paths. I very much appreciate your time and effort.

But at some point, you have to drop it. The mind will never understand or accept the nature of WHAT IS.

All I can do is wait for it to drop it on its own (or not), right?

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

How does it feel to realize that ?

At once: relieving, demoralizing, doubtful.

Interesting mix.

Can you stay with this emotion ?

I tried to stay with it. Nothing notable happened.

Keep connected to your sensation as you do the exercise.

You are right. My mind's understanding is my safest way of existing for now. Thank you for finding paths. I very much appreciate your time and effort.

You feel safe in the mind that's ok.
That is fine, there is NO WRONG WAY to exist.

When existing in the mind will feel too small, attention will naturally shift into something else.
Pain and suffering are great teachers even if they are not necessary.
And as you are starting to see clearly, the mind is not a safe place at all and can't give you the protection it pretends to offer.

The proof is that it can't protect you from suffering or pain.

But at some point, you have to drop it. The mind will never understand or accept the nature of WHAT IS.

All I can do is wait for it to drop it on its own (or not), right?

Dropping the mind means: seeing beyond the illusion.
Thinking is a spontaneous expression of life so there is no stopping it.
It is the same as having the TV on while reading a book. There are 2 different activities but the focus is on one more than the other.

The impulse you feel to DO, explore, and inquire about the nature of yourself and Reality IS a spontaneous impulse.
The mind can't stop it.

So you agree that you have no choice?

Yes, although my agreement feels partial.

I am aware that we keep exploring control.
Keep an open mind about those explorations. Try to forget all the theory and spiritual knowledge you have accumulated.
What is interesting is what happens in your experience as you do them.

Don't think or write answers immediately. Do the exploration, enjoy, let it sink, and bring it to your everyday life.
And when it feels right to answer then write what is present for you.

This is not an exam and you will NOT receive a diploma.
The Exploration is the Gift.

Doesn't that make sense?


Let's keep exploring:
Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where Sergey autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which Sergey is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

The Exploration is the Gift.

Doesn't that make sense?

Yes.

Can you find anywhere where Sergey autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

I can't find anything separate or autonomous that can be perceived from "the outside".

Can you find someone somewhere?

No.

Can anything be found for which Sergey is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

I look at my decisions afterwards and feel responsible for them. But in the moment choice is made, I do not know how it is made and don't watch myself make it.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I can't find anything separate or autonomous that can be perceived from "the outside".

Exactly, there is no outside experience or outside reality. THIS IS IT.

I look at my decisions afterwards and feel responsible for them. But in the moment choice is made, I do not know how it is made and don't watch myself make it.

YES, the individual and the experience of control are after effect. There are nowhere to be found here and now.

They exist as experience but there are nowhere to be found.


Can you stay with those too realization and scan how the sensation react?

Can go throught your day with those in understanding?

What is different when you hold those in your mind in your everyday life?

Let me know.

I will be traveling for few days.
I keep in touch as fast as I can.

Take care

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Can you stay with those too realization and scan how the sensation react?

I was not able to notice distinct reactions.

Can go throught your day with those in understanding?

I took some time to come back to all of this as I go through out the day.

What is different when you hold those in your mind in your everyday life?

There is somewhat less pressure to get things "right", if that makes sense. But overall, not too much feels different.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

There is somewhat less pressure to get things "right", if that makes sense. But overall, not too much feels different.

We often aim for light-striking realization and huge shift. But this process is usually very subtle and almost unrecognized.

less pressure to get things "right" feels like a good place to be and keep exploring.


Try this:
Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the handover? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

How is the movement controlled?

I can't tell.

Does a thought control it?

Not that I can find.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

How is the decision made to turn the handover?

I don't know!

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

No idea.

Can you find a separate individual or anything choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No.

It's clear that it all just happens as part of the continuum of consciousness but then I forget this later when something happens that needs a response and I start to consider which response is the right one. I am trying to keep in mind the observation of choices "just happening" at those times of needing to choose a response, but it doesn't work somehow - I still "worry" about choosing the right way.

When I bring in the "just happening" perspective, something starts to grind and stall in my mind. I need to spend more time here in this intersection where choices feel urgent or important. The hand flipping choice is not important, so it's easier to let the "just happens" observation stay and co-exist with the choice happening.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

It's clear that it all just happens as part of the continuum of consciousness but then I forget this later when something happens that needs a response and I start to consider which response is the right one. I am trying to remember the observation of choices "just happening" at those times of needing to choose a response, but it doesn't work somehow - I still "worry" about choosing the right way.

I suggest that instead of saying "I forget" start to think this way:
There is an arising of thinking and consideration about this situation A.

You did not choose to consider situation A but there it is.
There is a rising experience of "willing to make the right choice" about situation A.

This arising does not mean that you forget or that you are doing something wrong.
The experience unfolds a certain way.

From your perspective situation A is worth and MUST NEED attention and CARE but situation B is meaningless.

You did not choose to care more about A than B.
That is simply the way it is presented to you.

The consideration arises. It also arises with the capacity or the lack of capacity to resolve the situation harmoniously.

Step back a little more.
See that the arising of situation A, the arising consideration, the arising of the energy to find the right answer, the frustration that you shouldn't worry because there is no control.
ALL OF THAT IS NOT IN YOU CONTROLE.

Let experience flow the way it has to.
I guess situation A is a problem for you because you do NOT see an answer that feels right, fear the consequences, etc.

Well, feel those emotions.
Feel the frustration in a somatic way, feel the stuckness.

When I bring in the "just happening" perspective, something starts to grind and stall in my mind. I need to spend more time here in this intersection where choices feel urgent or important. The hand-flipping choice is not important, so it's easier to let the "just happens" observation stay and co-exist with the choice happening.

You have to step back more.
Urgency is time. Time IS thinking. Thinking is imagination.

The important feeling about a choice that needs to be made is often a fear of the consequences.
So it's fear. Feel that fear in a somatic way. Feel the fear.
What if...
After this happens then-....
What will think people....
I will lose...

ALL OF THAT IS IMAGINATION.
What is not imagination is the sensation appearing in your experience AS THINKING proposes those mirages.
What is here in this very moment.

Look at that.
Feel that.

Try and let me know how it goes.

[OfTheField]

Feel the frustration in a somatic way, feel the stuckness.

So it's fear. Feel that fear in a somatic way. Feel the fear.

You are exactly right. Stuckness and then fear of stuckness.

I feel all this in my body for a few seconds and then my mind makes some kind of move that intends to become unstuck, and fails, and fear of stuckness reignites. Here is perhaps a cycle that keeps powering itself.

If I finally gave up attempting to stop this cycle, it would probably wind down on its own. But I do not have control over when I will give up attempting to stop this cycle!

Too much thinking.

After writing the above, I went back to my body with the idea that there is nothing I can do on purpose to change my stuck/fear cycle. The fear is smaller now. Thank you.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

After writing the above, I went back to my body with the idea that there is nothing I can do on purpose to change my stuck/fear cycle. The fear is smaller now. Thank you.

Great, the more you get used to the feelings of stuck/fear the more there will be some kind of okness in their presence.

This "no-choice" is not a resignation, is a fact that what is present can't be avoided. There as great deal of rest and peace in this realization.

From this peace and energy experience can take a new pathway. Not from your own, self control will, but from the unknown. This okness is a door to the natural flow of life.


Try this:
Doership Exercise

Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of identification of being the ‘doer’. That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser’. So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see?

No.

The question is; can you turn seeing off?

No.

Can you NOT see what is seen?

No.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

No.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

No.

Can you turn off seeing?

No. Maybe I can train myself to do so :)

What did the 'chooser' choose?

Perhaps the timing of when to respond to your message? About as much choice there as choosing when to flip my hand while holding it still. Which is to say, I did no find a chooser or a moment of choice or the experience of a choice, but there was still some kind of mysterious choosing experience.

Did a 'self' choose something?

I don't know/understand what the experience of choosing is. I can't find any particular features of it.

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Which clothes to wear in the morning, or when to stop eating, or where to cut the tarot deck. That's when the feeling of choosing is most obviously present.

[Windaway]

Helllo Sergey,

Perhaps the timing of when to respond to your message? About as much choice there as choosing when to flip my hand while holding it still. Which is to say, I did no find a chooser or a moment of choice or the experience of a choice, but there was still some kind of mysterious choosing experience.

This "mysterious choosing experience" is a thought.
As you have no experience of Chooser,
no experience a moment of choice,
no experience of a choice,
Why do you keep giving this "choice belief" so much credit?

Everything you belief and conceptualize will feel real, true, and factual.
But we are not interested in this for this guidance.
We are interested in what is HERE and NOW in REAL TIME.

This article may help you:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog ... we-know-it

I don't know/understand what the experience of choosing is. I can't find any particular features of it.

This is the proof that choice is made up.
Can you see that you feel to have a choice after the fact?

If we take your example, you may feel you can choose when to send a message.
Once is done you may feel you did had a choice.
But the fact is: the choice is anticipated or retroactive.

"I will click on the mouse to send the message."
"I have clicked on the mouse the message left."

You never find the precise moment of choosing to click.

Which clothes to wear in the morning, or when to stop eating, or where to cut the tarot deck. That's when the feeling of choosing is most obviously present.

This is a contradiction with what you wrote few message back:
The hand flipping choice is not important, so it's easier to let the "just happens" observation stay and co-exist with the choice happening.

Both will always be present in you:
* the obviousness of choice
* just happening

Try to spend a day in one and another day in the other.
See what happens.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Why do you keep giving this "choice belief" so much credit?

I can only guess. Becoming an adolescent and finding some control over my life for the first time was very important to me. In our discussion, I may be equating with dropping the "choice belief" with dropping my control over my life. This is probably scary to the parts of me that desperately wanted some control.

This is an interesting situation. I have put myself in this position precisely to be changed by you. I trust you enough to let this be possible.

Already you have changed my mind: I now believe that any given mental state was not my choice, and I do not have the choice to change it at will by sheer mental effort. This includes my giving the choice belief a lot of credit. And it includes me not being able to give it less credit until I get it less credit for whatever reason. I hope the world arranges itself in such a way that I let go even more.

This is the proof that choice is made up.
Can you see that you feel to have a choice after the fact?

I do not see this is as proof. I see it as an absence of evidence of choice existing in such a way that I can pinpoint it with my conscious mind. For whatever reason, I still need to be convinced that choice is ENTIRELY after-the-fact attribution. It could also be "something I feel but can't poinpoint." Why not? Anyway, I am thinking about this a lot... Hopefully some kind of understanding will emerge.

Try to spend a day in one and another day in the other.
See what happens.

I am trying to do this. I am able to regularly remember that my mental and emotional states are not something I choose. But I am not able to take on the perspective that my external actions and speech are "just happening."