Close but stuck somewhere

[tylerzxc]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

I understand that the universe, life or whatever label you use is actually the real you. There is no separate self, never was one. Metaphorically, it’s like a giant puzzle and a tiny singular piece proclaimed itself as the self, when the self is actually the whole puzzle.

What are you looking for at LU?

Looking for some help to see what I’m holding on to. I have a decent intellectual understanding, but something hasn’t clicked. It’s a feeling. It’s a little frustrating knowing who I am but still getting caught in sense of I.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Maybe someone who could point me in the right direction. Someone who can show the chains I am still wrapped up in. A proper way to self inquire. A lot of the information I have is very sparse, since I listened to many different teachers like Alan watts, ram dass, Maharshi, Anandamayi Ma, and some people I met in personal relationships have helped me a little. Maybe with a narrowed down focus and fixed guidance, seeing it as is instead of intellectually from a proper guide sounds lovely!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have only been on this journey of who the hell are we really and why are we here for a few years. I mostly have used YouTube to get my knowledge.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[dkelso]

Hi Tyler,

I'm going to save us some time and suggest you take a look at my website and see how I approach this self investigation, no self realization. The way I work is very simple, tight and focused self inquiry. Check out the site and approach, and if that is what you want, let me know and we'll dive in!

best,
Dan

[tylerzxc]

I understand and have looked through the website. Seems like a direct pointing of the source, interesting. I am interested in some guidance, thank you!

[dkelso]

Good.

Where are you, what's the time difference between there and the east coast of the U.S.? Is Tyler your name, do you want me to call you that? Mine is Dan. So, to keep the momentum, this works best if we have at least one exchange per day.

OK, let's get into it.

Initially, this can feel like an absurd question, questioning the obvious. "Of course I'm here." But that is the point, the sense of "I" seems so obvious that it's never questioned (sometimes in a whole life time!). But, as it turns out this sense of "I" is at the center of all our troubles, limitations, etc. That makes it a very important question to ask and answer.
Make sense?

Can you clearly discern the difference between perceiving and thinking? This is very important. Effective self investigation is about 95% perception, or bare noticing, and maybe 5% thought. So it's very heavy on direct experience. What's happening now, how am I showing up now, what is the actual sense of "me" now? That thought get's the ball rolling and then the mind is put aside while there is deep looking to experience directly the answer. soaking up the truth in simple perception.

Now, why don't you take a run at investigating and describe exactly how that goes, what that looks like for you.

[tylerzxc]

Hey Dan! I’m in the us east coast so no different from your time zone. Perceiving is direct experience without labels. What is happening. Thinking is the use of language and symbols to describe perceiving.

At the now, there is senses arising like touch, smell, taste and thoughts popping up describing the senses. I feel I am showing up from the perspective of the body and perceiving the environment from a sense of the subject, me to objects surrounding this me.

[dkelso]

Ok, good, let's break this down a bit.

I feel I am showing up from the perspective of the body and perceiving the environment from a sense of the subject, me to objects surrounding this me.

At the moment this was spoken, there is a perceivable, investigateable, "I" sense in "I feel". Also, a bit secondarily, there can be investigating this "I" that seems to be showing up as the body, perceiving, or being a subject to objects. Each of these needs to be questioned and looked deeply into for verifying. Is this true? Who feels? What feels? Are you found as this feeler, or subject, or body? This is, "Right Thinking", in the Buddhist sense. Push attention into each of these aspects of experience and be very accurate. Are you actually there, in and as each, or not? Be sure before moving on.

Becoming more exacting and precise about assumptions about you is what true self inquiry is all about. "I feel", "I am the body", are only assumed to be true out of habits of belief. All these beliefs about you (false assumptions) are dismantled by not assuming anything is true about you, but relying on direct evidence. If something can't be verified as directly perceivable, it's simply not true. A thought, a belief. You don't need belief when you KNOW, see clearly. Take that for a drive and let me know how it goes. ; )

[tylerzxc]

No it’s not true about the identification of a subjective I in an experience. There is no owner of feeling or sensation. They seem to just happen, kinda like a waterfall. I don’t know what feels, just a feeling of feet on the floor, breathe leaving nostrils, smells in the air, etc. It is just noticed, but who is noticing it lol?

Focusing on the body and the perceived separation of it to objects, I’ve noticed there is this warm feeling that is exactly the same regardless of distance. The “nothingness” itself. It is comfy but feels distant, like it’s definitely there but in the far background. I can’t find the “I” anywhere in direct experience until thought comes up.

I understand what you are saying about truth through real experience, it’s challenging because the mind is so used to using thought as a guide.

[dkelso]

When the sense of self or I seems gone, see if these questions resonate: "Is there no self. Never was, couldn't be, not an actual thing? An impossibility?" Not a mental answer, not belief (very important to separate what you know), but perceived directly, simply now, continuously. Is it "seen" that no sense of "I" is or could be real, and that is never what you are. If this is not unwaveringly true, then in what way does this spacious or empty experience limited? Is there a sense of here vs there, is there a center to experience, a feeling that the body is personal, that there is a point of witnessing from somewhere, a sense of containing experience, or boundaries, etc.

These are the more subtle ways that the separate self sense persists.

[tylerzxc]

There is no center. No “I” just an absolute presence. The thoughts, feelings, emotions are just happenings. Perceptions are just happenings. It’s just a spontaneous flow. In the direct experience, there only just is. What arises is what is and is always registering. But these are just concepts trying to point at something. Isn’t this entire paragraph a belief of the awareness itself? But who believes? The separate self does as if it was actually really there. Seems to keep itself alive by deep core beliefs. The way to feed it is thought that is tangled around the core of I.

I cried and cried and laughed. Recently after some self inquiry, I went into Walmart and everything felt so vibrant just noticing everything. Like a child in a chocolate factory. I will never forget that experience haha. I have felt deep relief in many waves through understanding of self through spirituality. This experience was big. It was blissful and sooooooooo fucking relieving. I mean it felt like I took off a 100lb weight vest haha!

[dkelso]

Excellent, this sounds like some real clarity is occurring Tyler. Also I think some confusion. Something to notice is, do these insights have endurance over time?

I want to address some conclusions in your first paragraph a bit. For example, awareness doesn't have beliefs. Strangely, beliefs don't belong or come from a "you", or any thing. They just arise in a sort of "mind zone". The truth is, it's more that everything that arises IS awareness, rather than that it HAS them. The sense of separate self can't have them either, because fundamentally it is also just a belief.

This game of identification and separation is all about where attention habitually tends to focus and move. It tends to not look at the one apparently having an experience, but rather "out from center" into stories, assumptions, etc., about that one. In a sense, what we're doing is habituating attention to move in different zones of experience in order to reveal clearer perspectives on what is. (Remind me to tell you the story about the printing press repairman.)

Also, in case your thinking is headed this way, it's important not to develop an interpretation that there is some deep, complicated, unseen process going on around the sense of self.

The separate self does as if it was actually really there. Seems to keep itself alive by deep core beliefs. The way to feed it is thought that is tangled around the core of I.

The "I" sense is not a self determining entity, not an entity at all. It's much simpler than that, a collection of impersonal appearances, loosely connected by an "I belief". This is available to be investigated and known. Speaking poetically, I found the loving, intelligence that "This is", placed everything we need to see the truth in front of us, and in full view.

There are a few things I want to check, but would be better if we do a perhaps 30 min. video chat? (it's free) Where exactly are you on the east coast? I'm in Black Mountain, North Carolina.

If you are interested, send me an email from my website, give me some times that work best for you, and I'll send you the particulars.

best,
- D