Exploring reality, with much fun and curiosity

[Mothership]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I know the theory of no separate self but admit that I'm still 99% in the realm, I think I get little glimpses of no self occasionally. As I understand it a LU guide will use words to directly point out that there is inherently no "individual self" and help me to actually see that. The FAQs on your website were particularly helpful.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to know my true essential nature. Who/what am I? I'm aware that I'm not just a physical body with thoughts and feelings attached. I'm aware there is an unseen part of each of us, a part that's hard to detect as it's beyond the 5 senses and beyond the mind. I get a funny awareness of it occasionally, and can sometimes bring on that awareness by different thoughts or actions, its what Eckhart Tolle calls 'presence', Christians might call it 'the Holy Spirit'. Is this my truest essentialist nature? I don't know, I think its getting close, maybe I've found it, but not sure. I'm open to the unknown, although I like routine in daily life too, but aware that there is much more 'unknown' than known. Can you point me to something deeper? Can you help me become more aware of who I am and what essentially I am? I'm aware of the theory that we are all part of the universal whole but my actual experience is mainly caught in the ego self. Can you point me to a deeper/higher reality?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Not really sure. I'm aware of the limitations of the internet in that we'll have to use just words, but words used well can be very powerful. I expect my view of reality to be challenged. I expect to be asked questions that may make me feel uncomfortable. I hope my guide will be clear on that space beyond the illusion of separate ego self, and be able to help me see beyond that illusion too. But, really I don't really know what the guide will bring into my life, but I'm happy to open up to and explore whatever they bring.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been doing yoga and meditation on & off for 40 years. was in a very active Christian group for 18 years, left dissolutioned 9 years ago. The last 5 years or so it seems my spiritual awareness has grown heaps. Researching near death experiences after father passing refreshed my vision - there is more than our senses & mind can perceive.

I spent 2 years travelling & living in a van, it was a wonderful time of getting intouch with me again, like what do I really value and what do I really want for the rest of my life, what to I really know & believe rather than what does society tell me I should. When I stopped travelling 2 years ago I started doing classical tantra courses focused on "waking up" or full liberation, the meditation taught brings me into heightened states of awareness. The courses also helped me process some stuck emotions. Since then I've joined workshops teaching "The Journey" by Brandon Bays, a good emotional digestion series of processes, done a men's group with lots of looking at who I am & stuck emotions. I see these emotional digestion processes as helps to get clear of conditioning which often comes via childhood trauma, but the main focus of my spiritual seeking is waking up to who I really am.

I received "pointing out instructions" from a Buddhist nun in rather unusual circumstances last December which enabled me to have a glimpse of the non-duel realm, but its hard to build on that when she's insisting on me joining her religion, but it did help me to see what Eckhart Tolle meant by "presence". I see thru mainstream religions, they have their place but I have been focusing on spiritual experience via techniques like meditation, pranayama, mantra, holotropic breathwork, mindfulness.

I find the teachings of Chris Wallis on classical tantra/Kashmir Shaivism useful, his interviewed Eshwar Segobind led me to chat with Eshwar on enlightenment, he pointed me to this site.

The last 20 months I've been caring for my aging Mum. That was quite an experience, it kept me being mindful of what I was doing & why, it brought out much love in me, it helped me see more clearly how I can give back to my community, it made me think about my own limitedness alot, it forced me to face some fears I had previously hidden from. Now she has passed I have time to focus on your guidances.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Nikinutter]

Hello, (is that what you'd like to be called?). My name is Nic, welcome to Liberation Unleashed! I read your answers to the above questions and I'd be happy to help guide you from here if you'd like. During this process we will LOOK directly at your experience to see clearly that there is no separate self running the show.

Please read and respond to the following points.

1) During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including non-duality, fetters, tantra etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will LOOK and answer from your direct experience.

3) The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

4) For the process to be focused I would like to make an agreement that both of us respond on this thread every day or two. Of course life happens, so if there are reason either of us can't we'll also communicate that.

5) Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have questions or any reservations regarding them:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also...
It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

Please...
When replying to a question use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Lastly...
What time zone are you in? I'm in Pacific Time

Finally...
Are you ready to get started!?

With warmth, Nic

[Mothership]

What time zone are you in? I'm in Pacific Time

My time zone is New Zealand Standard time (NZST) 19 hours ahead of PST

[Mothership]

Are you ready to get started!?

Yes. Have read & understood those 2 doc, disclaimer & faqs

[Mothership]

Hello, (is that what you'd like to be called?).

I like to be called "Oli" which is short for Oliver. Cheers

[Nikinutter]

Hello Oli,

Nice to meet you! Yes quite the time distance but in my experience that is not a problem.
I just had a couple questions before we get started.
First, I'm curious as to why you chose 9/10 rather than a 10? Is there some hesitation that we should explore?


I liked your thread naming "exploring reality with much fun and curiosity". What does that mean to you? In other words why did you chose it?

My initial thread when I was being guided was "restless searching". That came from my complete desperation in all the searching I'd done up to that point and how I couldn't relax until the job was done. Very poignant to where I was in life at that time!

Just a little ice breaker before we get started. Look forward to hearing from you.

When warmth, Nic

[Mothership]

Hi Nic,

Apologies for delayed reply, I thought this forum would let me know via email when there was a reply as it did the first time. Just last night I remembered that part of the agreement is to check it daily, so I'm onto it now. Thanks for sharing how desperate you were, I'm so pleased you found this site!

To answer your questions

I'm curious as to why you chose 9/10 rather than a 10? Is there some hesitation that we should explore?

I don't feel absolutely desperate as I get the sense that I've been guided here at the right time for me. Yes I have been really keenly seeking the last 5-6 years, but as I look back it seems more like a continual unfolding from one thing to the next. Like when I did that tantra course (that's classical tantra not the sexualized stuff, that course was called Direct Realization Training, it was about steps to full liberation/waking up to who we really are) things started to unfold quite quickly. I got clarity about my spiritual goal of waking up fully, I got a technique for dealing with emotional and mental blockages, I got to hear about other classical tantra teachers. The next step was The Journey which sped me along the path of dealing with those emotional & mental blockages. but I knew just getting clear of them wasn't the goal. A classical tantra teacher, Christopher Wallis, helped to keep me focused on waking up and seeking the truth or all things/the underlying reality. The buddhist nun opened my mind to see the non-dual world briefly, this opened me to the concept of non-duality like never before. Eventually Chris Wallis had an interview with a guy who, it seemed, had a spontaneous awakening and was living in this awareness constantly, when I talked with him myself he directed me to LU website. All the time from a few months after that first tantra course I was fixed in one place (I'd previously been travelling for 2 years and tend to move around abit) with the responsibility of caring for my terminally ill Mum. This gave me much time to deeply reflect, as well as consistent internet access to explore these things. So if 10 is absolute desperation then I'd say I'm absolute for this path of waking up fully/full liberation, and moving ahead with more and more boldness and confidence as I'm seeing what is unfolding, but 9 says I have more trust in the universe unfolding itself to me so I don't need to be ravishingly desperate. Looking back & seeing what's unfolded so far makes me think that what I'm wanting is what the Universe wants too, which is really kool as I'm so used to fighting against the world to find "me", or my real values & purpose. That doesn't mean I can lay back & let the Universe do it as I don't think it works that way, but sometimes too much desperation, for me, can make me blind to what's unfolding.

I liked your thread naming "exploring reality with much fun and curiosity". What does that mean to you? In other words why did you chose it?

I think the answer to this follows on from the above. I do see that I'm exploring reality, a psychonaut I've often called myself (but not the drug related one), and it is curiosity that drives me and I realized it always has since I was a kid, also the realization that nothing else really matters. I do have a tendency to be absolute, fixed and desperate, which I'm realising is really useful when pursuing the meaning of life, but it can cause me to overdo things, I tend to do so many things that are similar that I get none of them done properly, like when I got keen of Circling I got really excited about travelling to Europe to do all these course, until I realised I was caught by dreams and had lost connection with the here & now. And I can fly off on tangents easily, like when I received "pointing out instructions" from a Tibetan Buddhist nun I spend weeks researching Tibetan Buddhism only to realise that religion is full of culture and superstition. So I started to look at what I'm doing in essence, and realised I'm exploring reality, I'm looking for the underlying reality of all things, one of my core values is truth/reality/what's really going on underneath all the surface stuff. I've pursed this so much I tend to ignore the surface things like tidy clothes, tidy house, combing my hair, needing money, fixing the car, so often it can seem like I'm a mess and life is falling apart. So I realised I need to balance myself out abit, be abit more practical. That's why I put in the "fun" bit, it takes the edge of my absoluteness, then it became ok to focus of practical things. And it is fun and exciting seeing what the Universe is unfolding and how its leading me :) I am wary of getting caught in the "fun" bit too, as that can be a distraction too, but I'm generally quite serious about things, so as I said it takes the desperate edge off my seeking and allows for more an enjoying it unfold attitude.

Hope this helps abit. Hey since this is kinda an icebreaker, would you tell me abit about what brought you to LU? Sounds like you have an interesting story. Sound like you have explored a number of spiritual things.

Warm regards,
Oli

[Nikinutter]

Hi Oli,

Thank you for sharing and I'm sorry to hear about your mom. Caring for someone close to you at the end of their life must have been both beautiful and challenging.

I don't feel absolutely desperate as I get the sense that I've been guided here at the right time for me.

This is great to know. Having the sense that this is the right time to be here for you and not being insanely desperate is a good balance to look at what's being pointed to and see clearly.

it is curiosity that drives me and I realized it always has since I was a kid, also the realization that nothing else really matters

Nice. Curiosity and a child like wonder is key to seeing clearly what has always been.

Hey since this is kinda an icebreaker, would you tell me abit about what brought you to LU? Sounds like you have an interesting story. Sound like you have explored a number of spiritual things.

Of course, thank you for asking. I found myself at LU through many years of seeking to end my suffering. I wouldn't say mine was a spiritual path but looking back that's what it was. I never did get caught up in spiritual methods or ideologies though, I just truly wanted to end my suffering. I had quite a traumatic child hood that left me with a lot of issues to work out as an adult who was married young and raising children. When I lost my daughter to suicide many years ago it all came to a head. That was when I became restless in searching for some kind of truth that would "set me free" and help me make sense of a world that confused me and that I didn't know how to be in as myself. I heard of a guy who wrote a book on awakening that was a step by step guide sort of things. Had an awakening experience while reading and journeyed to deepen it.. You tube videos, non duality, fetters... and here I am now.

Nice to get to know each other a bit. Now, please answer these questions so I can understand our starting point and if we need to address any doubt or fear before we begin. My guess from what you wrote is dodn't think so.

1. How will life change after seeing that there is no inherent self?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

With warmth, Nic

[Nikinutter]

Oh and make sure you're subscribed to this thread. At the top of the page there is an image of a tool with a drop down menu where you clean click and subscribe.

[Mothership]

HI Nic,

Its feels sad to hear about your daughter, must have been awful for you. Am so pleased it drove you to seek deeper truth or meaning to life, maybe a roundabout kinda way its abit of a gift in disguise from her. I certainly gained heaps from being with Mum in her last 2 years, as you said both beautifully healing, and challenging.

Well, these questions... I'll answer them as best I can

1. How will life change after seeing that there is no inherent self?

This brings up 2 questions for me. What do we mean by life? Is there no inherent self?
For me "life" is both physical and something more. When we think of life growing we think of plant & animals & people growing, physical bodies growing. But people who've had near death experiences (clinically died then brought back to life again) have reported seeing their body as not really themselves, that they were something more and they were aware of still being alive, this is often referred to as consciousness, which seems to extend beyond physical life. So life can be both physical and consciousness. The bible says something like "in Him was life and the life was the light of men" (John ch.1) showing that Jesus (some would say as God's expression) then is the essence of life. To me that kinda relates to more a universal life or consciousness. Maybe there is a personal consciousness and a universal, I’d assume they are connected with the personal being a part of the universal as this is what's depicted in most religions and is my intuitive sense, ie. that we are all in essence a part of a greater invisible whole that goes far beyond our physical life. So if God is life, in essence it won't change no matter what I see.

If you mean “life” as in “daily life” or “day to day things that happen and my responses to them”, then I guess, and it would be only a guess as I have no real idea until it happens, but I think I would feel abit freer, abit more relaxed about things that happen in my physical daily life. If there’s no real “me” then I would probably be more about “we” or the world as a whole, there would be little room for pride and vanity too, lol!

I've heard it said by various spiritual teachers and by material from LU that there is no inherent self, that its all an illusion, and to me its an intriguing idea, but I have little real experience of this, the illusion seems pretty solid to me so far. I was hoping you would help me to see this more clearly, but I'm not someone who just believes because someone said so.

2. How will you change?

If I saw that there is no inherent self… I don’t think I would in essence change, but my responses to things that happen in daily life would change, it would be a relief, I could let go more, I think, then there probably would be the desire to explore what its like in different situations.

3. What will be different?

Awareness is what would be different, just awareness.

4. What is missing?

Not sure what you mean by this? What is missing now is that awareness, I guess…

Well those questions did got me thinking abit, lovely to share things that have been deep within me for some time. Thank you :)

I’ve going away on a little holiday, my first in 10 months. Am off camping in a remote spot where there is a hot thermal pool and lost of bush, its winter here so hopefully there will be few people there so I’ll be able to soak in the warmth and think more deeply about all that’s happened the last 20 months since coming to support Mum. There may not be phone coverage there so if I don’t reply for 5 days you know what’s happened. but I will take my laptop in the hope that there is. I’ll return Monday or Tues next week, that’s in 4-5 days. Will try to check in when I get there later tonight.
Just want you to know that I really appreciate the time you’re taking to connect with me, it is so good to connect with someone who has waking up to who we really are as a goal in life. Many blessings

[Nikinutter]

Hello Oli,

Its feels sad to hear about your daughter, must have been awful for you. Am so pleased it drove you to seek deeper truth or meaning to life, maybe a roundabout kinda way its abit of a gift in disguise from her.

Thank you and absolutely, life's difficult experiences can be a gift if seen from a different perspective. In fact I wrote a poem about losing her entitled "The Gift"

I was hoping you would help me to see this more clearly, but I'm not someone who just believes because someone said so.

This is great, don't believe a word I say! I'm just going to ask you to look at your direct experience and find out for yourself about this self things.

I’ve going away on a little holiday, my first in 10 months. Am off camping in a remote spot where there is a hot thermal pool and lost of bush, its winter here so hopefully there will be few people there so I’ll be able to soak in the warmth and think more deeply about all that’s happened the last 20 months since coming to support Mum.

Sounds lovely, enjoy!

Thank you for sharing with me. You truly do not seem to have any doubt or fear in seeing through the illusion of self. That's wonderful.

Now let's explore what direct experience (DE) is exactly.

So many of us believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind). This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

We also need to understand that knowing something is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

So what is this Direct Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing.

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on directly in present moment experience.

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?

Can you be 100% sure?

When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.

One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use direct experience with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)


How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be? How does "me" shows up at experience? What is "me" made off? And where exactly it is ?

In the room?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

Let me know what you find whenever you get Internet services.

With warmth, Nic

[Mothership]

Hi Nic,

The holiday was awesome, spent much time in hot pools in the bush then swimming in a freezing cold river and a few bush walks.

I did the 20 min exercise suggested in Ilona's blog post. That was fascinating. When I did the writing just using verbs I tended to feel really light and happy, found myself smiling then giggling then laughing. No idea why, it just happened, just noticing writing, breathing, sighing, smiling, chuckling, etc. Then i'd get an itch and notice scratching, or noticing resisting scratching, it just brought me lovingly into the here & now, which seems to be quite a fun place to be lol!

When I read those 2 questions

What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

I started to realise that every word I was using to describe what I was seeing & hearing is a label! I felt alittle sick in my stomach, like, every word I use is a label, is not real... the more I considered it the sicker I felt. How to describe what I see without them... I couldn't find one word that wasn't a label, it was abit horrifying, & realizing that I've done this.

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be? How does "me" shows up at experience? What is "me" made off? And where exactly it is ?

I don't really understand this question, but it sounds kinda important. I a still experiencing this stunnedness after realizing so much of the words I use are labels, so there's still a "me" here, but it doesn't seem to matter as the profoundness if the labels revelation is huge. The sick feeling seems to have abated for the time being, but its left a kinda deep hollow sense in my gut, like I've come to some deeper layer... all those words, labels... eyahhh! I've gone from can't stop chucking & laughing to uuhh deep in my gut...

Stunned (but warm) regards,
Oli

[Nikinutter]

Hi Oli,

The holiday was awesome, spent much time in hot pools in the bush then swimming in a freezing cold river and a few bush walks.

Sounds wonderful, glad you had an awesome time!

Then i'd get an itch and notice scratching, or noticing resisting scratching, it just brought me lovingly into the here & now, which seems to be quite a fun place to be lol!

This is wonderful, it is fun! Isn't it amazing to see this? I'm wondering, if you look carefully, can you see that there is only here and now? It's only labels and thoughts that give the illusion of not being here?

I felt a little sick in my stomach, like, every word I use is a label, is not real... the more I considered it the sicker I felt. How to describe what I see without them... I couldn't find one word that wasn't a label, it was abit horrifying, & realizing that I've done this.

Right! What is there without labels? Stay there. What is that exactly?

The sick feeling seems to have abated for the time being, but its left a kinda deep hollow sense in my gut, like I've come to some deeper layer... all those words, labels...
Eyahhh! I've gone from can't stop chucking & laughing to uuhh deep in my gut...

Let's simply this understanding. If you look for the "I" who is experiencing this "hollow sense in my gut" can that "I" be found? Without labels and only looking directly, what is there? Anything?

Let me know what you find and then I'll have an idea where to point you next. Great work!

With warmth, Nic

[Mothership]

Hi Nic,

Apologies for not responding sooner, quite hecktic here, am flying out to Europe in 2 weeks and my brother wants to put the house on the market, so much to do. It was my mum's house which we both inherited recently. The weather here is wet & cold so I'm going for summertime along with a few circling workshops I've wanted to do for awhile. I'm not sure I can do what you're sharing justice atm but will give it a go as it was pretty profound.

Its often come back to me the last few days how I felt when I first saw that without labels "what is it?" That was amazingly brainstopping! But how to describe it ... everything kinda melted, I guess...

if you look carefully, can you see that there is only here and now? It's only labels and thoughts that give the illusion of not being here?

I'm not sure if I'd call it here & now, maybe it is, just not sure...

Right! What is there without labels? Stay there. What is that exactly?

Not sure what it is exactly, just energy, but that's a label too... Just here, now?

If you look for the "I" who is experiencing this "hollow sense in my gut" can that "I" be found? Without labels and only looking directly, what is there? Anything?

Without the "I" there's just that hollow feeling in the gut. There's gotta be an "I" or who\what else is there to be aware of it? Feels abit confusing.

regards,
Oli

[Nikinutter]

Hello Oli,

Sounds like you have a lot going on in your life at the moment! No worries, life happens and I get that. But, if you're not able to put in the time needed with consistent and honest effort maybe this is not the time for a deep dive into seeing through the illusion of self. I can point until the cows come home but if the effort isn't happening over where you're at it's meaningless. If this isn't the right time for you please let me know.

With warmth, Nic