Being OK with not knowing

[Siennak]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this as when one looks—really looks—it’s obvious there’s only this one presence, no separate looker, no boundary, and the thought of a separate doer becomes obvious as just a concept but has no relevance to this non conceptual presence that is always here now.

What are you looking for at LU?
Not sure. I understand self realization conceptually but don’t feel that it is a lived experience. I have always longed for a teacher but have only ever read books and listened to podcasts/youtubes etc.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I’m not sure, but I’m curious. I have never reached out to anyone before regarding non duality/no self/ unity conscious teachings and have followed many many teachers. Maybe I am seeking my doubts to be assuaged/brought to light. Maybe I want to hear pointers that resonate enough to silence the mind. To learn to stabilize and trust in the experience of this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Avid seeking for 10 years/ a thousand books/a thousand teachers from a far/ meditation here and there/ inquiry into what’s here now? That question seems to resonate the most .

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Nikinutter]

Hello, Siennak (is that what you'd like to be called?). My name is Nic, welcome to Liberation Unleashed! I read your answers to the above questions and I'd be happy to help guide you from here if you'd like. During this process we will LOOK directly at your experience to see clearly that there is no separate self running the show.

Please read and respond to the following points.

1) During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality, fetters, etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will LOOK and answer from your direct experience.

3) The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

4) For the process to be focused I would like to make an agreement that both of us respond on this thread every day or two. Of course life happens, so if there are reason either of us can't we'll also communicate that.

5) Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have questions or any reservations regarding them:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also...
It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

Please...
When replying to a question use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Lastly...
What time zone are you in? I'm in Pacific Time

Finally...
Are you ready to get started!?

With warmth, Nic

[Siennak]

Hi Nic,

Thanks for responding. You can call me Sienna. I will look with intent and honesty and try to respond within a day or so. I have read the disclaimer and FAQs page .

I’m so ready and excited to dig into the truth of the mystery tour!

I look forward to hearing from you.

Sienna

[Nikinutter]

Hi Sienna,

Nice to meet you! Let's get started then..
First, please answer these questions so I can understand our starting point and if we need to address doubt/fear before we begin.

1. How will life change after seeing that there is no inherent self?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

With Warmth, Nic

[Siennak]

Hi Nic,

1. How will life change after seeing that there is no inherent self?

Perhaps an unbinding process will occur, where illusory thinking is seen through?? But ultimately, I have know idea.

2. How will you change?

Again, I’m not sure, but perhaps a shift happens where identification with thought/a separate self falls away and the aliveness of what’s actually happening (non conceptual reality) becomes amplified ?? (Not that it could actually become more amplified , just a perception of amplification could shift?) And with that a feeling of inherent peace under anything that’s happening ? All of it big question marks as I have no idea.

3. What will be different

Clear seeing perhaps? Vs illusory thinking/identification with a separate self. Maybe the sense of alive being will become the foreground of experience? Vs an experience of seeing as story/thought/imagination??

4. What is missing ?

There is nothing missing. The experience here is essentially whole/full/plump and juicy rich with texture and flavour and colour and light and sound and feeling and full of sensation and love and inherent peace and without boundary or limitation and … seeking is present too. Seeking to find out the truth of experience even though I knwo there is nothing else but the truth of experience. But the mind is constantly asking “What is this?” Subject/object is an illusion, yet it is the predominant experience. “Why?” I want the truth. I want the felt sense of ‘nothing missing’ consciousness. Intellectually it’s obvious nothing is ever missing but seeking still happens.

To try to answer your question directly, a remembering to recognize that nothing is missing is missing. Does that make sense? And not remembering is perfectly in line with nothing is missing too but we’ll just leave that. I guess that’s what I want —to recognize beyond mind that nothing could ever be missing .


I hope I’ve answered these in a way that is workable. I’m trying to be as honest with experience as possible but it gets so wordy and annoying to read probably and paradoxical. I hope I’m clear enough, though.

Thanks again for taking the time to hold my hand through this process. It is fun.

Kindly,
Sienna

[Nikinutter]

Hi Sienna

To try to answer your question directly, a remembering to recognize that nothing is missing is missing. Does that make sense?

Yes that makes sense. It's easy to get caught up in the illusion and feel like we are forgetting that everything is here now and nothing is missing. Hopefully through our conversation this will all become more clear and remembering isn't needed; it all is just seen as it is.

So let's start with exploring what direct experience (DE) is exactly.

So many of us believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind). This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

We also need to understand that knowing something is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing.

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in DE.

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?


Can you be 100% sure?


When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?


Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.

One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use direct experience with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)


Let me know how that goes!

With Warmth, Nic

[Siennak]

Hi Nic,

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Let me know how that

Seeing/raining is happening . When I look there is no separation between seeing and the raining that is appearing.
Hearing/humming sounds (fridge). Again no separation between hearing and the humming sounds appearing.
Seeing/typing words. No separation between the two. Seeing doesn’t have an end where the words being typed begin. The typing appearing doesn’t meet any seeing. They are one. Seamlessly one thing.
Hearing/breathing. Feeling/breathing . No separation between verbs except hearing and seeing and feeling seem to exist on different plains from each other but occur simultaneously without impeding upon one another.

It feels expanding to look in this way. And at same time the mind says “so what, life will snap back to mes and mys and Is and thems.

I used labels but I hope I coherently described the experiencing that arose.

I like Ilona’s labels article, thank you!

Warmly,

Sienna

[Nikinutter]

Hi Sienna,

I used labels but I hope I coherently described the experiencing that arose.

You did perfect! There is no other way to express something that does not have words other than through labels. It is expansive, just seeing, just hearing. It's all just happening now and allowed to be.

It feels expanding to look in this way. And at same time the mind says “so what, life will snap back to mes and mys and Is and thems

.So what if it does? Do you expect this never to happen again? It's not about it snapping back, it's about the noticing when it does.

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be? How does "me" shows up at experience? What is "me" made off? And where exactly it is ?

In the room?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

With warmth, Nic

[Siennak]

Hi Nic,

.So what if it does? Do you expect this never to happen again? It's not about it snapping back, it's about the noticing when it does

Love that!

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be? How does "me" shows up at experience? What is "me" made off? And where exactly it is ?

It’s a persistent apparition, subtly and not so subtly preceding (seemingly) every thought and action . I suppose it’s made of dreaming, but again, just a thought itself, and a sticky one that gets its dreamy little hands into everything and claims everything for itself. It’s easy to conceptualize the me and point at what it is and isn’t, harder to see through its veil into the abyss of clear seeing.

Where is it is a great question. It’s not anywhere and is everywhere. It is the room.

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

No. It’s found only as the habit of perceiving a ghostly guest that doesn’t exist. Truly it can’t be found if it’s not assumed. When experiencing stops and looks poof, no me.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

The body disappears. No boundary. No tallness. No weighty matter. Not an in or an out, just sensation floating through vastness.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The label is just a construction to attempt to organize patterns into a concrete idea. The actual experience of the body is sensations within a noticing of them. The sensations aren’t separate from the noticing, though. Not really “within”. The noticing is made up of the sensations (while they’re being noticed).

I’m noticing throughout the day it feels like the body is within me as apposed to I am in my body.

Thank you,

Sienna

[Nikinutter]

Hi Sienna,

It’s easy to conceptualize the me and point at what it is and isn’t, harder to see through its veil into the abyss of clear seeing.

Yes, let's see if that veil can be lifted!

Where is it is a great question. It’s not anywhere and is everywhere. It is the room.

How is this known?

No. It’s found only as the habit of perceiving a ghostly guest that doesn’t exist. Truly it can’t be found if it’s not assumed. When experiencing stops and looks poof, no me.

How does it feel to see that?

The body disappears. No boundary. No tallness. No weighty matter. Not an in or an out, just sensation floating through vastness.

Great!

I’m noticing throughout the day it feels like the body is within me as apposed to I am in my body.

Can you explain this a bit further?

Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of identification of being the ‘doer’. That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser’.
So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.
Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.
Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black
space’).
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Let me know what you find!

With warmth, Nic

[Siennak]

Hi Nic,

How is this known?

It’s known because when looking for where the me is, there is nothing found but hereness. There’s not a limited separate sensing. It’s all this right now. The hereness and the awareness of it are one . It’s like the content itself is aware of itself. Like awareness is built into hereness. This ness. All that is present now.

How does it feel to see that

?

It feels freeing while looking, but when I stop noticing , the doer snaps back into existence. So why not keep looking?

Can you explain this a bit further?

The body (sensation) is present within awareness. Awareness doesn’t feel like it’s in the body . If I am the one aware it feels like the body is within a vast empty me as a appose to a tiny me-doer being housed within the body.

The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

This is a golden pointing! Thank you! I’m going to sit with it further.

Warmly,

Sienna

[Nikinutter]

Hi Sienna,

It’s known because when looking for where the me is, there is nothing found but hereness. There’s not a limited separate sensing. It’s all this right now. The hereness and the awareness of it are one . It’s like the content itself is aware of itself. Like awareness is built into hereness. This ness.
All that is present now.

Thank you for this clarification.

It feels freeing while looking, but when I stop noticing , the doer snaps back into existence. So why not keep looking?

Is there a doer though? If it's all right here right now as you stated above how does a doer snaps back into existence? Or maybe the feeling of snapping back is just another arising in experience? Look carefully right here.

This is a golden pointing! Thank you! I’m going to sit with it further.

Great, let me know what you find as you sit with it and then we'll go from there.

With warmth, Nic

[Nikinutter]

Hi Sienna,

How's it going over there? Just want to check in and see if you're still interested in this inquiry. Please let me know where way.

With warmth, Nic

[Siennak]

Thanks so much, Nic, for checking in. I’m going to end this inquiry for now and take the nuggets of exploration you have offered thus far.

Thank you so much for your time.

Warmly, Sienna

[Nikinutter]

Hi Sienna,

Thanks for getting back to me and I wish you well wherever this journey takes you. You're always welcome to return at any time.

With warmth, Nic