Remembering

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien,
For some reason there is a bit of a glitch in the process of posting. There are no notifications that you've posted so i have to back track to a link and search to see. I have contacted support but their remedy didn't help....all this to explain the delay in response.

I'd like to ask you some questions that will be shown to other guides to read it, to see if they have any input or comment. Are you OK with that?

No problem about asking qus and other guides seeing the answers. Thank you.

There is a clarification seeking happens/ed but there is/was no one seeking. A slow revelation, deepening clarity, no one doing it, no one achieving the clarity or 'becoming aware', no one forgetting or remembering to look, looking happens or not, seeing happens or not, and seemingly all the while a sense of someone that was never there dissolving into what always is. WILD! and very plain, basic and ordinary. It could be that at the moment there is clarity, 'a glimpse' perhaps, but even so, there is no one having it! It's kind of laugh out loud funny and deeply, deeply relaxing.
Much love, Catherine.

[Vivien]

Hi Catherine,

Sorry for my late replies. Here are the questions we were talking about.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien,
it seems we are both very busy. Throughout the day though this is the only real point of interest and absorbtion.....even though it is now clear that there is no one to be absorbed!

Here are some answers. I am just writing freely, no editing bc I just want to get them to you. Things are pretty intense with this understanding at the moment. Do you have time for more frequent contact? I am trying to take moments in the day to rest in Being bc it is a refuge. Images of being in a shipwreck arise, floating wreckage....there is a sense of ease too, joy and relief, but oddly and unexpectedly disorientation too.
Much love and gratitude,
C.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
Amazingly and beautifully there is now the knowing that there is no separate self. It is not a constant awareness but whenever there is looking there is finding. Throughout the day there is a background knowing and a quiet calling back to the truth. At work, when sitting with a client the words come from nothing and I know that they are looking into nothing when they look at me. This is where the understanding is the clearest and most bright. This awareness can get obscured throughout the day but in just a moment of quietness it is seen once again.
And there never has been a separate self. The little girl asking "What is THIS? THIS?" (rubbing her fingertips together in the air) and asking "What is before and after all the numbers? What is before and after Space?" My mother tried to answer but "God" seemed so far off the mark. He was impossibly far away and what I was talking about was the opposite of that! There was never a separate self.The eyes close, the body disappears and there is only bird song, falling rain, breathing. No one here, no one doing it. There was no little girl separate self a) bc its impossible and b) bc there is only Now. Thought says "I wish I could go back to her and fill her in" Knowing says "you have!"


2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The separate self it only constructed of thought. Looking closely it is seen that experience happens, thought, masquerading as a separate someone, has something to say about it and then the thought is believed. Concepts, ideas, memories all swirling around in a tornado, gathering around an empty central point give the illusion that there is something there. But there isn't. As it has been said so many times, it is just thought referencing thought in an ongoing maze of mirrors.

What is different now is that there is a knowing that there is nothing at the centre, the centre doesn't exist. There is just a fathomless radiant clarity. Now there is no sense of seeking, only looking. 'The question 'To whom is this emotion arising?' gives way to vast spaciousness. The feeling is felt in the context of awareness, space, as a phenomenon arising rather that in the confines of a contracted 'me'. This is so freeing. The emotion can be free to fly, not be clung to and claimed, and the body relaxes, deep deep cellular relaxation. But this is new and there is a lot of investigating going on. The 'Doer' is the point of interest right now. Its funny to watch and see that no one exists anywhere but hardly anyone knows that! It feels deeply restful and as though there has been a home coming......at long long long last. Unexpectedly though, along with the deep peace there is a sense of turbulence. One minute seeing, then next being self identified. Then there is seeing and clarity and, concurrently, a sense of disorientation. Qus like "what does all this mean?" and "how does it fit?" arise. There is a clear understanding that this is one step on a journey. There is a lot of work to do (by no one). There is a clarification process is underway. Post Tornado Clear Up, what is worth keeping? What to let fall away? What belongs where?


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
GRATITUDE x INFINITY = LOVE
Profound love and gratitude is how it feels to see this. It is so simple and so obvious it is laughable to think that it took so long. It feels as though, after fighting through smog, a breakthrough to fresh air has been made. Deep, bottomless breaths of clarity are taken. It's as though a cruising altitude has been reached, no more climbing. But there is a lot of clarifying to happen yet. The seeing isn't stable. The last few days have been like navigating two worlds. The separate self operation and then the Reality.

Standing in a coffee shop yesterday knowing I don't exist, noticing that everyone was smiling - even the dogs, kids dancing to music, a new mother giving me suspicious sideways glances and then the realisation that I was beaming at her baby along with the sure sense that I must be invisible. It's as though a new dimension has opened up and I don't quite have my sea legs yet.

The difference is that prior to LU and Vivien's help I was in despair. The realisation and understanding was not going to happen to me. I didn't believe that thought totally, but the evidence was pretty compelling. Seeking and Knowing has been present for the weight of years, a lifetime, calling, calling, calling. Frances Lucille, Mooji, Gangaji, Byron Katie (dear dear Byron Katie - my first introduction to the diamond truth of reality), Rupert Spira, Tony Parsons, Angelo DiLullo, Susan Chang, Susan Stryker, Susan someone else, so many others, so many teachers, but no one had pointed directly, consistently, relentlessly at the one place. The Empty Centre of Nothing called the separate self. So many prayers for a teacher to take me through the Gateless Gate seemed unanswered. Then a friend told me about Liberation Unleashed. Vivien wiped the mist off the glass and there reality stood in all her glory! Nothingess, Radiant Emptiness, Glorious Clarity, Truth, Peace, Beauty, HOME.
Sound is the doorway at the moment. Sound cuts through thought. It is so clear that no one is hearing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
There doesn't seem to be a 'last bit'. It seemed as though Vivien and I had done what we could do. It all made sense. I could see her point. I knew pretty much everything the mind can know about Non Duality so there was little else to say.It seemed we had reached a hiatus, an impasse. So I, as any good Gestalt therapist knows, 'when at an impasse be at an impasse'. There was a pause. Then, in the days before, during, and after my 55th birthday (May the 4th) Clarity happened. It happened as quietly as a door opening. No big bang. No big 'Ah Ha!' moment. Just a sense 'Oh! the door is open, the wind has stopped'. Astonishingly it is like waking up from a dream, I keep dozing back to sleep but it is morning now and time to get up.

I'll send the answers to 5 a and 5b and 6 later on today.
Much much love to you Vivien and thank you so much for guiding me so far. You've led me to the path really. I'd love to come and see you in person for a session or wecould do a zoom one sometime soon. I'll be guided by you with that. Very much open to your thoughts on this and to any feedback on these answers. Thank you for taking the time to do this. xxx

[Catherine1]

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Gosh, this is a biggie. There can be none of this. This is probably going to take some getting used to.
What makes things happen is the same intelligence that makes everything happen. Invisible, intangible intelligence that is Oneness. I don't know how it works other than to say from experience....an impulse arises in the body mind system, thoughts make a story about it, movement happens or not, something is done or not, all the while the mind is justifying, categorising, making up stories, projecting, referencing memory or imagination....and all the while, what happens happens or not.
In recent experience a 'happening' could be the flip flopping between separate self identification and understanding there is no separate self. No one is controlling this, least of all a 'me'. Contraction happens, discomfort occurs, thoughts start running a story making it wrong, making a 'me' wrong. Freshness nudges and thought starts a story about doing some enquiry, the enquiry happens or not and seeing then happens or not.
A teacher said to me that she thinks there is some free will, that on things such as the way we conduct ourselves, ethical behaviour, politics, efforts to save the environment etc. She said that these are within the range of Free Will but whether the planet is saved or not (for example) is out of our control. This makes no sense to me (maybe I have more work to do here) because since there is no self how can there be any free will? This is all still in the realm of what makes sense but the lived moment to moment experience still feels as though it is run by thought. There has to be stopping and looking and checking to see clearly. It is not coming naturally at the moment. There is not too much stress about that though. Seeing through the illusion has provided a clearer confidence in the process and much less urgency is coming up.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
It sounds wrong to say this but how can anyone be responsible for anything if there is o one doing anything? Of course there is the hope that one would accept accountability for actions but on the real level of the way things are, it has to be said that responsibility is with Intelligence, awareness, Consciousness. Question 5 had provided a pointer for further consideration perhaps.
There is a lot to say for Qu 6 but it'd be nice to take some more time to answer it. Kids and housework and cooking dinner is calling right now. More later.
xxx

[Vivien]

Hi Catherine,

Thank you for your beautiful and detailed responses.

Question 5 had provided a pointer for further consideration perhaps.

Is there something that is not clear? Perhaps around responsibility?
You are a therapist, right? So, can you made up a story perhaps based on your seeing? (seeing meaning when you look, but also as you work with people you know more about human nature and how the psyche works).

here is a lot to say for Qu 6 but it'd be nice to take some more time to answer it. Kids and housework and cooking dinner is calling right now. More later.

All right, I'm looking forward to it :)

I'd love to come and see you in person for a session or wecould do a zoom one sometime soon. I'll be guided by you with that. Very much open to your thoughts on this and to any feedback on these answers.

Well, it's up to you. If you feel the need to talk, we can talk :)

There can be lots of flip-flopping and deepening. Also, anything that carries and emotional charge from an unresolved emotional pain or trauma will trigger up the feeling of being a me, a person, who is hurt, who is .... this or that. fill the blank

With the smaller ones, repeated lookings into the one who is supposedly experiencing those, or happening to, can gradually dissolve it.

But if there is something deeper or stronger, sometimes additional inquiry is needed.

[Catherine1]

6) Anything to add?

This is a slow unveiling. Sometimes deeply clear and shiningly obvious, sometimes obscured almost totally. There is learning to be ok with both, resting in/as Knowing as it all shows up. The mind continues to run its show. Somehow though there is peace because the game is up. As catastrophic or as mesmerising as the mind can be there is awareness that it is all just thought following thought, no 'mind' even. There is thinking about reality (which is never reality) and there is Reality. Now more than ever books like The Mind at Home With Itself (Byron Katie), and The Ashtavakaragita et al are helpful. There is no more seeking, just 'coming back to'. Metaphorically I know the sunglasses are on my head now, it's just a matter of reaching for them and putting them on. No more madly rushing around looking.

Previously infuriating statements like "all that you seek is already within" are settling into place, all these truths have new meaning, they are confirming rather than indecipherable and out of reach. Things which were known only intuitively and abstractly are now being realised practically. When Francis Lucille says "I am talking to that which is hearing these words" there is clear knowing now, not a wondering accompanied by the lingering sense of shame for constantly missing the point and knowing that I am not getting it. For the first time there is a desire to go on a retreat. A desire to rest as this, time for the Self to explore itSelf. There is a sense of knowing what '100%' means now, what 'fundamental' means. There is a new understanding of certainty, totality, complete assuredness, total fullness which is absolute emptiness. And all this is not happening to anyone, not known by anyone. Incredible. And the task seems to be to live this, to be this as all the normal, habitual conditioning arises to be clarified. There is the sense of having a lot of work to do (but there is no one that has to do it). It all feels like a natural event, like an earthquake or a waterfall. There is no "I" who is or ever has anything to do with it, there was never a seeker who sought. Just lots of thoughts trying to claim, own, organise, control....to see it feels like a teenager who realises that the only control a parent has over them is what they allow them to have.

There is flip flopping and your pointer to enquire "who is the one feeling this?" helps examine the obsurations.
Thank you Vivien, all this seeing and break through happened while you watched on, pointed, helped, and guided me through. The years of seeking had started to feel exhausting and LU and you accepting my request to work with you is what got me through the Gate. You were the last push, the bit that got me to really look. Thank you so very much, thank you for walking me home. I hope I can continue to write to you. There is a lot to settleand I'm sure it'll take time.

I am considering what you said about responsibility. I didn't understand the bit about being a therapist and knowing the human psyche. I just meant that sitting still, face to face, listening and talking in a focussed way is where the awareness that there is No Self shows up the brightest. Looking forward to hearing any feed back or comments and please let me know if we can continue here.
xxx C.

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien,
Just thought I'd drop you a note to say hi and to get clearer about where we are.
As far as I can see there hasn't been a response from you after my last post which answered qu 6.
I don't really need anything but I'm curious about your thoughts or comments and I wonder what you meant when you said other guides would see my answers to the qus. Does that mean others might comment or point?
We are all so busy, I barely have time to write too so there is no expectation on my part, as I said, I just want to know if this is still a place to talk with you.
As always, very grateful for all the time you spent guiding me through.
I think I am through the Gate but now it's clearer than ever that there is NO GATE!
Currently there is an awareness of no-me-ness and a resting. There is also a gentle subtle sense of discovery and exploration but its very, very subtle and it arises on its own of course. And there is a greater a confidence, ease, a sense of quiet joy and peace. I don't think anyone would notice a shift unless they were very familiar and looking very closely...but no one is and no one does so there is just no one looking at no one! Amusing for sure.
All that effort and noise and static and searching - gone. Like a rocket launching into space, all fire and shuddering and fear and expectation, bits falling off and burning up. Then the sudden peace and silence of being in orbit. No more effort, no more noise, nothing to do, nowhere to be, just being. But somehow there is also a restlessness, a sense of pent up energy in the body, a bit like an animal in a cage. Thoughts of wanting to travel over seas, move state, change something. It's clear that there is no I here feeling this, it's just arising, maybe it's just left over momentum. With it has come exhaustion and need for rest.

Very gratefully and warmly yours,
Catherine
xxx

[Vivien]

As far as I can see there hasn't been a response from you after my last post which answered qu 6.

Sorry, but I didn't get a notification, so I was waiting for your reply, not knowing that you've already replied.

I don't really need anything but I'm curious about your thoughts or comments and I wonder what you meant when you said other guides would see my answers to the qus. Does that mean others might comment or point?

Usually, when a someone is clear that they've seen that there is no personal self, then we ask these 6 questions. After, we show it to other guides to read it, to see if we missed anything. If they have any question then I'll bring them to you. If not, then usually the conversation ends (since the 'goal' was met).

This thread will be move to the archive section of the forum. But it doesn't mean then this is over, since seeing that there is no separate self is just the first step, just the beginning. Lots of unfolding can happen after. It's a continuous deepening.... and we can still talk if something comes up.

But somehow there is also a restlessness, a sense of pent up energy in the body, a bit like an animal in a cage.

Yes :) all those patterns, beliefs, conditioning and the associated emotions that made up the perception of a separate self, could still cause turbulence :) but after this, they are more easily accessible to look at to see what is really at the core of them. (or rather what is not :)

Now, I'm going to show our conversations to other guides to see if they have any questions. I will come back to you after I've heard from them. This might take a couple of days.

Love,
Vivien

[Catherine1]

A big sigh of relief comes with reading this email. Thank you.
So much is going on!
The idea of a separate self hasn't arisen at all until now. Instead there has just been a kind of melting, a vast spaciousness in the heart region, deep deep boundarylessness, not that I am boundaryless but there is just boundarylessness.
Still feelings arise, pain, anger, etc but there is a curiousness about them rather than just repetition of a story. How is this situation able to cause hurt? Who is hurting? It's much easier to examine it, explore, feel, heal.
Thoughts about me continue but at more of a distance. "I am soooooo tired" is quickly met with a knowing that this is a story and a question mark appears. I remember BK saying this too.
This is a confusing place and a longing to speak to someone is happening. The sense of seeking has gone but the territory now is new. This is just a beginning for sure. There is more clarity than ever before - fathomless clarity - but there is a lot of conditioning and confusion.
I'm very glad to be back in contact.
I'll await your post - I don't get notifications either but I'll be sure to check.
Much love,
Catherine

[Vivien]

Hi Catherine,

Several other guides have read our conversations and they have no further questions. This thread will be moved to the archive section, but you can still access it and normally we both get notifications if the other writes. It will not be closed, just moved. So we can still talk :)

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien,
Thank you for letting me know. I am not getting LU notifications and i think that you're nt either but we'll see when you read this. If I don't hear back by the weekedn perhaps I'll email you to ;et you know I've messaged you.
There is no seeking going on. I'm tired of it. There is noticing throughout the day and a sense to let things unfold. All that frantic energy of seeking has finally finally slowed all the way down, thank God!
Integration is doing its thing. Slowly working out how it all fits. There isno bliss or altered reality, no big WIW moments and I wonder if this is 'it', but it is, it's just quieter than alot of what is online as people's experiences.
As I said earlier, there is greater peace, relief and joy and that is the base line.
I was in Brisbane on the weekend and wondered if you see people face to face. I'll be there again in about a month. Do you work close to the city?
x C

[Vivien]

Hi Catherine,

This time I've got a notification :)

that's good that seeking has lessened. Just know, it might come back if something is triggered that is creating suffering.

Seeing that there is no personal self is not an exotic experience, it's not an altered state. It's not a different state than anyone is normally in.

It's rather a shift in perspective.

I was in Brisbane on the weekend and wondered if you see people face to face. I'll be there again in about a month. Do you work close to the city?

I don't have a 9 to 5 job. I only work from home, online with the few clients I have. Honestly, I've never done a proper session face to face, only online. Most of my clients are either from Europe or the US. I just had a handful (or even less) Australian people whom I guided here in the forum. So answering your question, no, I don't go to the city too often.

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien,
I got a notification too so thats good.
Thank you for your reply.
It is so hard to put in to words all that is happening. It is a completely different experience from seeking, instead of seeming to look and search there is a sense that the I is still and the Truth is just being revealed, slowly and effortlessly. There still seems to be a lot of fog but there is a knowing that a small I can not do anything to change anything so the process just happens, quietly, very gently.

My son has a chronic illness and we need to go to the Qld Children's Hopsital more regularly now. Are you open to meeting up for a session at some point? We could meet at South Bank or closer to you and I'd pay you. I totally understand if you don't want to. The reason i'm asking is because it is so hard to write everything and although there is no seeking there is still a sense that a guide would be very helpful. Meeting in person would be helpful because I imagine it helps so much to be with someone clear. I'll be there in about a month but my son has a lot of testing then so i'll be busy caring for him but in the visits after that i'll be more free. Otherwise zoom is completely fine. The sense is that this all needs to settle a bit first and then perhaps we can zoom or whatever in a month or two? There are questions about work and about fear to ask. In the mean time I am very much enjoying your blog. xx

[Vivien]

Hi Catherine,

Sorry for my late reply.

I've was thinking about what you wrote, meeting somewhere and having a session there, but I'd like to decline it. I also have some chronic health issues, and I'm often unwell. So it's easier for me to have a Zoom session from home and not drive when I"m physically not well (which is more often than not).

Meeting in person would be helpful because I imagine it helps so much to be with someone clear.

Maybe you are projecting things onto me...? :)))) You can look into this. Do you think that talking online (like Zoom) is really that much of a difference than meeting in person? Is there really a difference?

There still seems to be a lot of fog but there is a knowing that a small I can not do anything to change anything so the process just happens, quietly, very gently.

This is good. Just let it happen. Whatever comes, just relaxing into it. Not fighting, not pushing it away... if that's possible.

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien,
I kind of knew meeting wouldn’t happen, it’s probably over enthusiasm on my part and zoom is totally fine. Sorry to hear you have health issues. I’m learning all about it with my son.
I would like a zoom session at some stage soon. Could we book one in for the beginning of July? Things are too nuanced and paradoxical and ephemeral to text at the moment.
x