Guide request

[Elad]

Please be on the lookout for what is dominating the inquiry in any given moment, emotions and expectations or just looking to see what is there (including seeing the patterns of expectations, emotions and beliefs).

I recommend you to put all expectations aside for now and continue not watching any videos or reading material outside this.

Continue to focus here 100% on: is there a separate self controller doer behind anything. Including the wishes, ideas and contextual shifts described in your last post? Which way is it?

What does "I" refer to, in direct experience?

Joining the session with Ilona should be fine.

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad,
Thank you again. "I" can see there is no chooser in all of this seeking..what is driving it I suppose are some expectations and hopes that it will become as clear as not believing in santa claus. Right now in my direct experience this "I" sort of comes and goes. I see that there are thoughts that pop up out of nowhere, and then the "I" sort of feels like the one who decides which thought to listen to or which action to take. Like the thought to walk the dog comes up and then I feel like it's "me" who decides whether or not to actually walk him.

[Elad]

Hi Elad,
Thank you again. "I" can see there is no chooser in all of this seeking..what is driving it I suppose are some expectations and hopes that it will become as clear as not believing in santa claus. Right now in my direct experience this "I" sort of comes and goes. I see that there are thoughts that pop up out of nowhere, and then the "I" sort of feels like the one who decides which thought to listen to or which action to take. Like the thought to walk the dog comes up and then I feel like it's "me" who decides whether or not to actually walk him.

This supposed I that decided, keep looking what is it actually?

You are buying into stories even as you write me.

This message I wrote another client I think might help here also:

[Elad]

What does "I wouldn’t say there’s been some kind of enlightenment experience" mean? Is this by comparison with stuff you have read and heard? And did we agree that this is not the way here and useless here?

If it is not what you mean, then what is it in direct experience that is lacking?

Remember "you" will NEVER NEVER NEVER be enlightened. What you take to be you, your thoughts and stories about how things are for you across time, is what what we look at here, so as to see, that they are no more than stories.

Awakening is direct experience NOW or nothing. It is not a charachteristic that you have or don't have.

Look if there is attachement to the story about you and your attainment, that actually interest you more then what is just true here now direct experience?

The vibe in several of your messages give me this sense. That is VERY normal. And if it operates without clarity about what it is (an illusion, an attachment to illusion), we can see and see but remain emotionally dissatisfied.

[Elad]

Here is an exercise for you Jessica:

Please take a look at the time line of our experience below and report back:

Exploring our Experience

We are born and for the first couple of years we experience the ‘truth’ of the world around us directly. The world is adventurous, beautiful, wondrous, amazing, colorful and tactile.

Is this true?

We are given a name then taught language which we then use to label things and communicate with other people.

Is this true?

We begin to hear words out loud in our heads and look at things, people, events evaluating them using combinations of these word labels.

Is this completely true or were there other times when you would look at a thing, person or event and there would just be ‘knowing’ without content? In other words there would not be a ‘self’ telling you what to do?


We then begin to have internal mind made conversations and debates using our word language. This makes us assume that there is a person in our heads with whom to have a conversation and that the events in the outside world happen to that someone.

is this true?

What is the real truth of what we are? Is it the word constructed ‘Me’ or ‘I’ that suddenly appeared when we learned language?

Go back in your imagination to when you were a toddler exploring the world. Relax and go back to a time before language when you were maybe nine months or a year old. How does this baby Jessica experience the world? Then report back.

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad,
Thanks so much for sharing the post you wrote to another client. That was perfect. Sometimes when I'm just still and really feeling into this, I can't think of any experience to make the moment any "better." It is so complete as it is. It is very simple that I can't imagine everyone doesn't "feel" this way.

Thinking back to being a small toddler/baby is something I enjoy doing as I'm falling asleep. Life was just spontaneous experience and sensation. I see that it is all thought that categorizes and makes this "better" or "worse." The "I" may have appeared when there seemed to be "agency" over getting what I wanted or pushing away what I didn't. But even a newborn will seek out milk and stop when full without an "I" doing it. Also, the apparent ability to reflect on situations just arises..but it sort of reinforces the illusion of "I"

In regard to the "I" that makes decisions, I don't know what that is other than the "thought+sensation."

Clear all the thought & beliefs away, there is just spontaneous arisings and fallings. I suppose the "feeling" of a witness is also there as an arising, but like I've mentioned, it's hard to tease out of the experience.

Meditation/relaxation and "dropping in" appear to be helping me along this process.

[Elad]

Beautiful.

Look closer at the experience of witness. Can it be found?

Is there any reason in DE to call it witness (subject) and not witnessing (verb/process)?

Can the witness in any way be found separate from experience, from being, from THIS?

Is there any reason to call the witness I instead of just "an aspect in being/lifeing/this"?


Repeating this process does not aim to make internal commentary including I-thought stop! I have that. Everyone I know have that. Why not? It's about clearly recognizing that it is an impersonal process, even the taking it personal is impersonal. And this takes no effort to see, just what is actually there...

[jazmine928]

Yes there is just witnessing! I see that the thoughts only come in after the fact. That I'm sure of. I guess "awareness" isn't a stand alone. I can't pull "myself" out of the moment. I've heard in so many satsangs that "You are the aware witness" but how can there be a witness without "anything" to witness?" When I say "I" witness, it's really just pointing out what already is.

[Elad]

Exactly!

Speaking of the witness is a trick/skillful means to help people to disidentify from stories they take to be self, but really its a thorn to remove a thorn. It itself just a story, not something real in DE. Sounds have seen that early on. No trick of the trade works for everyone ;)

So: There is no self, no controller, doer, never was, is it true?

How is it to see?

[Elad]

Sounds *like you* have seen that early on

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad,
Part of me feels like this can't be it because it's extremely simple and hard to imagine that most people don't "feel" this way. Nothing really has changed and I catch myself thinking "this can't be it" I think I need more time for integration and reflection. What we've been talking about requires me to be very present to notice. And the illusion of there being a choser, doer is still there..perhaps I just know it's not as solid as it once was even though it never really was! This "illusory" self still rises and falls, gets triggered, has preferences and I suppose the sneaky "witness" arises too ;)

[Elad]

Do you expect you will be unable to experience sense of doer, controller, witness? Why do you want to banish these thoughts, why ill will to them?

This is extremely simple and subtle, that's where the liberation is. Suffering is in chasing special states (craving) where there is no sense of self, or no discomfort, etc etc. (reacting to these thoughts and sensations with ill will/aversion). Liberation is seeing how all that is just the flow of life. There is nothing for "you" to achieve, a "better more enlightened you".

Do this exercise:

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.
Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad,
Thank you for the exercise! Sometimes it seems like the "No self" is a belief I'm taking on, but then like you suggested in the exercise, I cannot find the location of this self. I notice energy in the body, thoughts and beliefs. Some beliefs really feel like "mine." But when I look closely I don't seem to have a choice. In regard to expectations, I do find myself "hoping" to complete this and pass through the gate. I live a busy life (kids, job etc) and sometimes it's easy to get so caught up in the day to day life and sort of fall back into being "me."

The concept of the witness is a bit of a thorn. Experiences come and go but "I" am always here..always on..

[Elad]

Why call it "I" always on?

Why call it witness (subject) instead of witnessing (verb - not a self)?

Can it in any way be separate from direct experience?

"Passing through the gate" is just a ego booster, if it is not a clear seeing.

Do you think you have passed through the gate?

It's okay for you to answer less frequently if it better fits your life rythm. This is for you.

[jazmine928]

Thanks Elad,
I'm not sure I've passed through the gate...I wouldn't describe this as clear seeing. And if I was in the gate crashers facebook group I think I'd feel a little like a fraud..lol. But I'm not sure what else to do. I don't want to waste your time in writing to me. Maybe it's something I need to keep investigating. If there is no "I" then what is it that's responding to these emails and trying out the exercises? There is something here...It seems like the word "I" might just be a way to communicate experience..