Hello

[JonathanR]

Hello Ramiz


I’m wondering if you read my reply?

How is it going?

Jon

[hathor94]

Hi Jon

Sorry for the late reply, I've been contemplating your responses, and I got busy doing emotion work.

But you are distinguishing interpretation from sensation, so I’m guessing that you see there is some difference

Yes, I agree, there's a distinction between a sensation and an interpretation. but when looking closely (as in waiting for the next thought to arise) the line gets blurry.

That supposes that thoughts are “yours”. Do you think thoughts?

Thoughts seem to be mine in a sense that nobody else hears them unless I speak them out. sometimes thoughts happen, and sometimes there's entanglement with thoughts as if I'm thinking them, usually when there's some kind of investment or when they have energetic charge behind them.

I hope you don’t mind but my guiding style is not to offer explanations but to point directly to the illusion, because direct pointing has the potential for revealing the illusion directly.

That's great! I like that.

Thank you.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ramiz

Sorry for the late reply, I've been contemplating your responses, and I got busy doing emotion work.

That’s ok. I wondered what had happened :)

Yes, I agree, there's a distinction between a sensation and an interpretation. but when looking closely (as in waiting for the next thought to arise) the line gets blurry.

Is there actually a “line” , as such?

Perhaps, in those moments before a new thought appears, there are no labels in any case, for what is experienced?

If there were, would it be a thought already, describing or interpreting?

Thoughts seem to be mine in a sense that nobody else hears them unless I speak them out.

Ok but
Perhaps nobody else hears your thoughts because they are thoughts and not spoken words? Does the fact that they are inaudible make them “yours”? If you did speak them out would they remain yours?

sometimes there's entanglement with thoughts as if I'm thinking them, usually when there's some kind of investment or when they have energetic charge behind them.

Entanglement with what? Take a look.

What is that energetic charge you mention? Can you say more about it? Best of all, give an example from recent actual experience ?


With love

Jon

[hathor94]

Hi Jon

That’s ok. I wondered what had happened :)

A lot is happening with emotions recently, but luckily, I've found someone who is helping me navigating them.

Is there actually a “line” , as such?
Perhaps, in those moments before a new thought appears, there are no labels in any case, for what is experienced?
If there were, would it be a thought already, describing or interpreting?

it seems that the interpretation doesn't have to be continuously repeated in mind to label something. it feels more like a constant filter.

Does the fact that they are inaudible make them “yours”? If you did speak them out would they remain yours?

If you mean by mine that I created them, then No, they are not mine. but mine in the sense that they are being heard only by me when they are inaudible, and when spoken they are being spoken through my mouth.

Entanglement with what? Take a look.

with the content of thoughts.

What is that energetic charge you mention? Can you say more about it? Best of all, give an example from recent actual experience ?

like when there's fear about making a choice, that gives the sense of being the one who needs to figure this out by thinking about every possible scenario.

Thank you.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ramiz

. A lot is happening with emotions recently, but luckily, I've found someone who is helping me navigating them.

I should probably say that sometimes (not always) self-inquiry can trigger or release emotions. Occasionally fear can happen. I only say this so that you can feel free to speak about that with me if it feels related to your enquiry here. You may want to remain private about what you’re talking of here and I completely respect that too.

. it seems that the interpretation doesn't have to be continuously repeated in mind to label something. it feels more like a constant filter.

Do you mean, a bit like once there is an idea about something already it can remain in place, like an assumption?

but mine in the sense that they are being heard only by me when they are inaudible, and when spoken they are being spoken through my mouth.

Your language here is really interesting and worthy of some attention. Language has a massive bearing on the illusion of “self” and how it is so widespread and how it keeps going.

If we do a little experiment and take out references to “me” or “my” from what you have said we might get something like:

“But in the sense that they are heard when they are inaudible, and when spoken they are spoken through the mouth”


I want you to look at how I rewrote this and look again at the immediate experience of thoughts appearing, or spoken words and see if the changed sentence still makes sense according to the actual experience?

Without any reference to “me or my” does it still communicate the jist of what you were saying?

Entanglement with what? Take a look.

with the content of thoughts.

Ah. Right. What is it that gets entangled with that content?

like when there's fear about making a choice, that gives the sense of being the one who needs to figure this out by thinking about every possible scenario.

I understand. Fear can do that, in combination with thoughts. Yes, fear can be one of the most persuasive energetic sensations that seem connected with the impression of a “me” .

It often seems like “my fear” but what if, once again, we experimented by removing the idea of “my”? That would still leave the fear sensation. Even possibly strong fear, happening, felt, experienced, flowing, but not assumed to belong to an entity that must attempt to exert control.


With love

Jon

[hathor94]

Hi Jon

I only say this so that you can feel free to speak about that with me if it feels related to your enquiry here. You may want to remain private about what you’re talking of here and I completely respect that too.

Thanks Jon, I'm open to share anything that would feel relevant.

Do you mean, a bit like once there is an idea about something already it can remain in place, like an assumption?

Yes, it's an assumption but it's not just an interpretation. it's like that audio trick where the subtitle changes the actual experience of hearing from hearing an incomprehensible sound to hearing comprehensible words. it's like a mind trick, and I can't override it even by knowing it's a trick. and you might say that it's not necessary to destroy the illusion, and that the point is that the illusion doesn't belong to anyone, but the issue is, it seems that the sensation that feels like a self is a result of the same mechanism of the illusion. and if knowing the illusion as illusion is all that is necessary to see through self, could that be just an intellectual understanding?

Without any reference to “me or my” does it still communicate the jist of what you were saying?

No, I was trying to refer to a distinct body, using "me or my" is a way of pointing that, I can also use impersonal language in a third person.

What is it that gets entangled with that content?

The assumed impression of self, when there is no entanglement there is what feels like an impersonal noticing,

Thank you.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ramiz,

Thanks Jon, I'm open to share anything that would feel relevant.

Happy you feel that way.

and you might say that it's not necessary to destroy the illusion, and that the point is that the illusion doesn't belong to anyone, but the issue is, it seems that the sensation that feels like a self is a result of the same mechanism of the illusion. and if knowing the illusion as illusion is all that is necessary to see through self, could that be just an intellectual understanding?

That’s so interesting. That the illusion doesn’t belong to anyone. It’s quite beautiful, put like that.

But yes, the impression at various intervals, can be that there is a victim of selfhood, thought of as “me” or
“I”.

Have you noticed that there is then the idea that something is “wrong”? That something needs changing? Like “the illusion needs destroying”?

That might be true if there really were a discreet entity.

Yes, intellectual understanding without really seeing that there never was a self is not deep enough. But it is also possible to miss the subtlety of it. The reasoning mind can reason right past simple clarity in the quest for some kind of ultimate realisation.

No, I was trying to refer to a distinct body, using "me or my" is a way of pointing that, I can also use impersonal language in a third person.

Ok. I suggest that you imagine that you are inside a “distinct body” that is interpreted as “me”. Is there that perception?

Love

Jon