Interested in exploring self/no-self

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

I picked the math lie, as they are the easiest to deal with.

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

Interestingly, I can feel sensations begin before I actually choose a specific lie. The sensations begin right after the intent to lie is registered.
Intent to tell the truth: (unpleasant) inward sinking. I can't localize it well. Somewhere in the torso.
Intent to lie: (pleasant) lifting openness somewhere in the torso.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.
Do you see that?

Yes, although I don't understand how/why inward sinking is unpleasant vs lifting openness being pleasant.

Thanks,
Sergey

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I want to be sure that I understand your answers.
When you tell the truth is unpleasant
When you lie it feels pleasant

Did I understood correctily?


Can you answer again using also words that describe physical sensation?
You can find some here:
https://sensoryhealth.org/sites/default ... n_List.pdf

Describe sensation factually and neutrally: hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

Example:
"I live in china" (lie)
Tension behind the head.

"I love my son" (true)
Warm and expansion in the torso and smile.



I am not playing with worlds here. Learning to feel the body factually starts with learning to describe(and feel) the sensation in a neutrally and precise way. This allows thought and interpretation to be less and less "mix up" with sensations.
As emotion is a mix of sensation and thought this can reduce drastically emotional reactivity and increase your body's sensitivity.

[OfTheField]

Hello David,

I want to be sure that I understand your answers.
When you tell the truth is unpleasant
When you lie it feels pleasant

Did I understood correctily?

I got them mixed up - my apologies! The truth is pleasant and the lie is unpleasant.

Can you answer again using also words that describe physical sensation?

1 + 1 = 3 (lie)
Downward clenching in the chest.

1 + 1 = 2 (truth)
Shimmering expansion in the chest.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Now try to use this labeling for your sensation for a day or two.
When there is emotion instead of calling it rage, fear, boredom, etc...
Try to simply use descriptive terms.

For example, if there is rage:
Heat in the spin, tension in the hands.

You can ask yourself:
How do I know that I feel this emotion without using thought?

The purpose is not to describe and let go of the emotion.
But to allow the sensation to be present in a factual and "neutral" way. Like a scientific.

Tell me how it went.

[OfTheField]

Hello David,

I tried this exercise. In general, my emotions appear in the stomach and chest. However, when I look here at the PDF with feeling and sensations, I struggle to find the ones that fit. The lie vs truth was easier because there was a direct comparison of A vs B and I noted the difference. When experiencing emotions from the day-to-day, it's very hard for me to find the right words for them.

Thanks,
Sergey

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

That is ok. The important part is being able to feel without labeling.

You say that the emotions appear in the stomach and chest. An emotion is a sensation+thought.
Focus and sensing and leave thought aside at the moment.

Try to feel emotion/sensation from that gap:

Finding the Gap
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

This exercise is very similar to how I meditate daily.

In general it goes like this:

(1) I notice that a thought is happening.
(2) It ends usually as soon as I notice it, like it is cut by a sword. Sometimes it continues after I notice it, but almost like it is a play: the content of the thought is fully known to me before its continuation, and it continues just for form's sake.
(3) There is some gap between 0 and and 5 seconds.
(4) Attention will go somewhere else for reasons I cannot discern.
(5) A thought will begin again.

Thanks,
Sergey

[Windaway]

Great,

From this grap find what "feel like me"?
What do you find?

In this gap can you find a separate self?

If you don't find one, how does it feel in the body to realize it?

[OfTheField]

From this grap find what "feel like me"?
What do you find?

In this gap can you find a separate self?

I did not find a separate self. I just found the searching intention itself.

If you don't find one, how does it feel in the body to realize it?

I did not notice a special feeling when no self was found!

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I understand that you don't find a separate self. But is there a sense of me? If yes tell me more about that.

Ps: please try to answer each questions separately.

[OfTheField]

Hello David,

I understand that you don't find a separate self. But is there a sense of me? If yes tell me more about that.

I repeated the exercise and tried to look from the gap to what "feels like me". It was pretty unclear. I think the search brought up an unpleasant tight/jittery chest feeling and a weak thought "OK, here is me I guess."

Ps: please try to answer each questions separately.

Yes, thanks for the reminder.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I repeated the exercise and tried to look from the gap to what "feels like me". It was pretty unclear. I think the search brought up an unpleasant tight/jittery chest feeling and a weak thought "OK, here is me I guess."

Are you able to stay with this unpleasant thight/jittery and the thought?

"hold" then in your awareness for as long as you can without strain. Stay curious and see what happens.

If the "sens of me" change or disappear search it again and stay with what is there.



Also the point to meditation is to "find the gap". But at some point you have to notice that there is no gap.
There is no gap between thoughts. There awareness within which appear thoughts from time to time.
When you see that clearly meditation is not an activity is what is here constantly.
Can you relate to this?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Are you able to stay with this unpleasant thight/jittery and the thought?

I tried to stay with it. A few things happened:
- The unpleasant feeling got worse and went down into my upper stomach.
- The thought of me got louder, and then I had an aversion to it. A strong desire for it to go away and leave me alone.
- I kept returning to the chest/stomach sensations, and they shifted around. Each time, it died down somewhat, and then I returned to it. This repeated 3 or 4 times.

Also the point to meditation is to "find the gap". But at some point you have to notice that there is no gap.
There is no gap between thoughts. There awareness within which appear thoughts from time to time.
When you see that clearly meditation is not an activity is what is here constantly.
Can you relate to this?

I can somewhat relate to this. I don't "know" what happens during the gap because it is a gap of knowing itself. Sometimes after the gap is over and knowing returns, I can look back and see that there was something in the gap. But sometimes my memory doesn't work and the gap remains a mystery. For those, I have no idea if something happened or not.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I tried to stay with it. A few things happened:
- The unpleasant feeling got worse and went down into my upper stomach.
- The thought of me got louder, and then I had an aversion to it. A strong desire for it to go away and leave me alone.
- I kept returning to the chest/stomach sensations, and they shifted around. Each time, it died down somewhat, and then I returned to it. This repeated 3 or 4 times.

That great, keep looking without intention.

I can somewhat relate to this. I don't "know" what happens during the gap because it is a gap of knowing itself. Sometimes after the gap is over and knowing returns, I can look back and see that there was something in the gap. But sometimes my memory doesn't work and the gap remains a mystery. For those, I have no idea if something happened or not.

You can not look back at anything because there is only here and now. Time IS thought.

Try this:
Time Exercise

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Apologies for the delay.

You can not look back at anything because there is only here and now. Time IS thought.

My language referred to having the thought of memory. But there was no memory formed. It seems to me memories can be formed when there is attention of some kind.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

No.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No. Now is not experienced as changing. Change simply occurs.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

I don't know. It's experienced as "moving" at the rate that the mind is able to measure differences between the present experience and some memory.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

I don't know. It doesn't seem to have a discrete existence and thus no discernible length.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

I can't tell.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

I can't tell.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Mostly memory and (somewhat) inference that the memory is likely shared by others. This is opposed to inner thoughts which are distinguished by others not having them when I do.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

The construction of an inference using memory and experience. In short: a set of thoughts labeled as "this happened before" and other thoughts labeled "this will/may happen later."