Overly intellectual but willing to look

[Gravitas]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand by this the realisation that there is no person which the thoughts keep talking about though I'm lead to believe these thoughts are not going to stop either. I expect part of the solidness of thoughts, feelings, decisions, sensations to lift when I see there's noone directing them.

What are you looking for at LU? If I'm to answer honsetly then I'm not sure my motivations aren't a breach of terms & conditions here. Life feels heavy and exhausting, there's often anxiety which keeps me from living fully. I feel stuck in the same loop. Tried different things but nothing sticks.

What I hope for at LU is to break out of that loop. I don't expect to suddenly gain an ability to just flow effortlessly with life or to be free from the feeling of insufficiency that's constantly here but I would very much like to get started on a path that I believe to lead in that direction.

Fundamentally what I would like is to feel OK. I can kind of see how my anxieties or shame try to do the same thing for me - make sure I'm OK. I've been able to dissolve a couple of those by deeply feeling into them but I probably accumulate new ones as well. I expect seeing no self to loosen this up and speed me along. Maybe remove the urgency? Not sure.

I have some general hopes and dreams about my life which are about worldly achievement or the life I lead. I'm frustrated that I don't lead that life because of self sabotage - I don't believe anything else is stopping me. At the same time I feel an apprehension that liberation will just turn these tendencies off. I think that would be sad if I shut off without expressing myself in the world.

Part of what I hope for is to be better able to help my friends who are suffering. Part of that hope is a desire for specialness but that's getting looser lately.

Part of what I fear is that others will see I'm a bad person. I fear that I will just tell them how that is the case when I look at myself clearly though honestly I don't see how that would be worse than the current state.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect better course correction when I inquire in the wrong direction and for someone to cut through my bullshit when I get lost in it. There's lots of uncertainty in me.

I think the central message of no self is understood pretty clearly just from what I've read in half the gatecrashers book. At the same time I can't honestly say that I see that I don't exist. It DOES feel like there is a me putting together these sentences. Picking out thoughts from a pool of possible thoughts. I feel like there is a decider that makes decisions. I expect a guide would be able to point me more precisely at what I'm missing here or maybe just to give me the conviction to stay with the question.

I think it's possible that I have seen through self but just haven't admitted that to... myself? It feels unlikely though.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I became interested in meditation half a year ago. I've been trying to do the jhanas but only got light piti. That was enough to convince me this isn't hocus pocus though so I got hooked. Regrettably it's all been rather intellectual than experiential. I read TMI and did some breathing meditation though the biggest obstacle is lack of consistency. I've watched non-duality or fetter work content on youtube but it hasn't clicked for me how basic the no-self insight is until I've found this forum.

I've also taken mushrooms a couple of months back and that was an important experience because I learned I'm quite disconnected from the physical body and up in my head in my day to day. It wasn't a good trip, it was quite disconcerting. At the end of it I was really unsure of wtf is going on. Each thought seemed false or wrong and I was acutely aware of the tsunami of thoughts and perceptions that was going on for hours. My imagination and memories were obviously also just thoughts and not real. An overlay over the senses. I was unsure of what I am and I was discussing this with my girlfriend. Asked her if I was her. She recognized this as true and said she was also me. There was fear and it was easier to ask and have her answer even though I knew the answers. Then I had the feeling of seeing the room we were in for the first time. Everything was empty. Thoughts that were unbearable quieted down and my energy came back. I was surprised how in that state habits still existed but I just saw them as habits.

And some time later I felt a huge relief that I do in fact exist... not sure what to make of this experience. I'm not looking to recreate an experience but it did startle me. It was obvious how everything has been an illusion. At the same time the reality of the world was almost identical to that illusion. It would be less freaky to wake up in an alien spaceship.

As I was coming down I felt thoughts come back online and intellectualize the experience away. Give it false names. I guess that's my normal state - I'm identified with thoughts and don't even see it. I have a fear I blocked the possibility of insight off by creating a rich conceptual landscape around it.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My goodness! That's a lot. But I hear you. I get it.

I strongly suggest you use The Work of Byron Katie *with a facilitator* to get through some of this suffering you are doing. There is a free helpline under Do the Work or Resources somewhere.

It can be hard to see there is no self if you're believing fear & doubt thoughts. Fear & expectations get in the way.

There is a Direct Looking process for fear.

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=jHXuuyyVtp7c-1R2

And this one:

https://youtu.be/fSTT8nc8cvQ?si=Alcukpbi7SUlXpfi

The only thought we question here is the imagination of a "self." But if other thoughts & fears are being believed this can be difficult.

There are processes out there for questioning our untrue thoughts & beliefs.. My favorite is The Work of Byron Katie.

Here's a snippet about fears:

https://youtu.be/Hl5qtoT2524?si=cZFMiDNvhR7kZ3wu

You can find many videos of her guiding people to question fears on Youtube. Her web site is www.thework.com

Please look at these & see if you can let some of the fear go.

Now, as far as LU goes, here is my usual introduction:

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Oh and please read my signature quote. Tape it to your mirror, your forehead, your girlfriend. ;)

Loving,

[Gravitas]

Hi Stacy,

Thank you for volunteering your time and attention!

I gladly agree to your requirements and will write honestly, try to look plainly at reality, put aside other teachings and post a minimum of once a day.

Sorry for writing that confused mess. I think I have aspergers and there's a strong need to communicate completely, not to leave out anything important. You can tell me if I should be more succinct :)

Thank you for the resources you provided. I haven't checked out Byron Katie yet but I will look into it. I see how the process of directly looking at fear can untie it and I will apply this when it arises. Since I posted I have read more of the resources here and I've been going to sleep and waking up for the past 2 days with the question "where is I" on my mind. The fear related to that looking which was very visceral has mostly gone away now as I've said out loud what no-self means. I think maybe I got that nothing really changes and that I cannot lose anything that isn't there. I'm actually a bit worried that without the fear of no-self I've lost an important guidepost which would have shown me the truth that is being protected lol.

There are other fears related to my work and other obligations which I'm avoiding which are strong. Not sure how relevant those are to our goals.

I'm in UTC+1 and I guess I got the nickname Gravitas :D it was meant as a Culture series joke as there was really a distinct lack of gravitas.

Your questions:

How will life change?

Life won't change, life already is. What will change is the beliefs about life and the programming I accrued. Slowly untrue beliefs will loosen up and fall away.

How will you change?

The person I'm identifying with will cease to be a convincing character. I hope this will eventually bring a fuller expression of this unique personality and stop the cycle of suffering.

What will be different?

The beliefs will change and identification will lose it's grip.

What is missing?

I'm missing the "aha". It's not obvious to me that there is no "I". I've understood what it means, I'm on board with it, I'm convinced that it's most likely true and when I look for a solid "I" I can't find one but this is not felt to the bone. I'm not convinced that the looking is adequate or complete, that the self really couldn't be hiding somewhere I haven't looked. Yesterday it resonated very much when I read that if there really were a self then it should be as obvious as there being a table or a hand and I'm not missing anything. Still this has not fully clicked. The feelings of a doer and observer are convincing.

Thank you again!
Love

[Anastacia42]

Thank you. Your expectations are mostly reasonable.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up, story that we believed.


Concise is good. We are looking past words and thinking into what is. I'll be explaining that shortly.

Loving,

[Gravitas]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up, story that we believed.

Honestly not much is coming up. There is a tingling in the fingers and lower legs that I'm unable to name as a feeling. The thoughts come that it is impossible for a character in a story to be writing the story, even if the story says that he believes so.

[Anastacia42]

That's fine. That question just checks for fears.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:



Colored Socks



There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.



Here is an example to illustrate the difference:



If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:



• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.



• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.



For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.



Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that



We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..



Direct or Actual Experience is



Seeing

Hearing

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)


Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[Gravitas]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I'm clear about what you mean by direct experience. Seeing vs knowing. I will try to put aside knowledge and look only in the sense fields which you listed in green.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Now practice that here:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Gravitas]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Looking at the wall = image
Feeling the body rest on the bed = sensation
Hearing the lawnmower out the window = sound
Seeing the cat walk by = image
Thinking about what the cat wants = thought
Tasting the toothpaste in my mouth = taste

Each label is itself a thought

[Gravitas]

Should I write more of these? That would be post factum. I've been noticing these throughout the day in different settings.

[Gravitas]

Just came back from a walk where I noted percepts several times per second. Let me write down some of them

Foot in boot = sensation
Trees sway = image
Bird chirp = sound
Wind on ears = sensation
Kids playing noises = sound
Car driving past = sound then image
Birch scent = smell
Bright sky = image
Squinting = sensation

So that's like a couple of seconds of my walk.

I have a feeling like I'm only naming a quarter of the perceptions - the most salient ones. I also do it late. Like a second or so after they already happened. I only note the most obvious thoughts as thoughts. Every label I give really is a thought. There's mental chatter and mental images which are thoughts.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Yes you've got the idea. I try to truly once a day also.

Here's the next step:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Are you still here? Please reply to that next pointer I posted?

Loving,