Remembering

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien,
Yes, The I feels like the default position but more and more it is seen through:-))

You have pointed to the wound/trauma before. Now I can see what you mean. "I am not worthy/good enough/am fundamentally flawed....too flawed to get this" is a common story, so looking at this for what it is -thoughts, helps.

When there is hopelessness then in that very moment it is believed that there is an actual, real Catherine present, whom all these experiences happening to, and this person now feels hopeless.

More and more it is seen that this is not true, there is no actual Catherine. This is just story #1002879000000 arising as part of everything.

How long do you usually guide people on this forum? Questions about how long your support will be here arise.
With gratitude and love.

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien, I thought I had sent a reply to your post but I can't see it here. Sorry. I have been watching my emails waiting for you to respond but it must be my turn!
Re your last post
Thank you, that is very helpful. Helpful to know that it can take years and that work can be done and that the work helps and matters.
And to look for the one who feels the hopelessness. Right now, "I feel so tired and disheartened" and the question arises 'Where is this one who feels this?' after checking the answer comes "no where, there is no one here/there", then "who did the checking?" This question is answered by silence and spaciousness. This process goes on alot.

People say I should be satisfied with being able to check and reliably see that there is no one here, that that is about as good as it gets for most people, and that getting all tied up in knots, going crazy looking for more is unnecessary. But it seems that this is not a possibility. No rest can be found in this. When it is seen that there is no one here there is a clarity, peace and rest. When the I asserts itself there is frustration and suffering - so why would it ever be enough just to be able to touch in to the truth? How could it be ok just to stop there? I guess one could say that the recognition reveals that we are never not in No Self' so then it doesn't matter, just to have the understanding is enough.But that's not the case here. There is a sense of wanting to get to the bottom of things, to do whatever it takes to wake up and stay awake. So many people have woken up it has to be possible here too. So far it seems that working and looking can get you only so far, then to go 'all the way' a moment of Grace is needed, that that is not something that can be forced...but it is all Grace right? It's not as if "I' can get myself (with your help) only so far and then God takes over. Right? The whole thing is Grace!!! It is all just an unfoldment, an unfolding. What a mind bending thing this is!
Vivien, There is such a fire burning here, when it is unquestioned and is burning in 'me' it feels intolerable. When questioned it is seen that it is just burning, burning, burning in the vastness. Then is can burn all it wants, it's fine.
And then...

to work on the emotional trauma/wound that is being triggered.

Ok, I have been trying to notice that. Old stories, patterns, defences, victim stories, fear stories etc that seem to solidify the sense of separation.
Do you have a time limit for guiding Vivien? Is there an average length of time you stay with people? I would very much like to continue and it feels like we could be here a while. Much love to you. Thank you for your guidance and wisdom and clear pointing.
xxx C

[Vivien]

Hi Catherine,

Sorry for my late reply.

Hi Vivien, I thought I had sent a reply to your post but I can't see it here. Sorry. I have been watching my emails waiting for you to respond but it must be my turn!

No, it was my turn, but I forgot to reply :)

People say I should be satisfied with being able to check and reliably see that there is no one here, that that is about as good as it gets for most people, and that getting all tied up in knots, going crazy looking for more is unnecessary.

Well, this is not how I see it. I've also heard this from some people, especially in LU groups, but I cannot agree. Seeing that there is no personal self is just the beginning, just the first step. It's not an end.

When the I asserts itself there is frustration and suffering - so why would it ever be enough just to be able to touch in to the truth? How could it be ok just to stop there? I guess one could say that the recognition reveals that we are never not in No Self' so then it doesn't matter, just to have the understanding is enough.But that's not the case here. There is a sense of wanting to get to the bottom of things, to do whatever it takes to wake up and stay awake.

Yes, I agree.

but it is all Grace right? It's not as if "I' can get myself (with your help) only so far and then God takes over. Right? The whole thing is Grace!!!

As long as the personal self manifests and are believed in, there could be a desire to go forward, or go deeper. So it will seem like that I'm doing it... but then a sudden shift in perception happens, and it's seen that there is no one inside the body doing anything. But the next moment the person manifests as if it were a real entity, and then it's still doing it. It still want to go forward.

This yo-yoing, or flip-flopping can happen quite quickly and many (even hundred) times a day, depending on the gravity of the default setting, OR what is being triggered in any moment. The more painful baggage the seeming person carries, the more often the personal I will be triggered into manifestation.

Many people stop here, with the fist step, and eventually hanging onto a conceptualized idea of there being no personal self. Since only a very few lucky ones' (the lottery winners') sense of self dissipates completely; and although many seekers wish for this, if it happens, it is often quite unsettling and even frightening to loose all sense of self so suddenly. So the gradual dissolution is more gentle.

But this gradual dissolution rarely happens on its own, meaning without the doing of the seeming self. Most of the times further inquiry is needed, as long as any sense of self is left.

There is a big difference between seeing that there is no personal self, and the full dissolution of the sense of self.

t's not as if "I' can get myself (with your help) only so far and then God takes over. Right?

Well, a helping God or Grace appears only, because in a personal self is in manifest. God can there be only if there is someone separate from it. When the sense of self is completely gone, God is gone with it :) Or... we could say that there will be no distinction between God and I... since they are being one and the same.

Do you have a time limit for guiding Vivien? Is there an average length of time you stay with people? I would very much like to continue and it feels like we could be here a while.

Well, I've never put a time limit for any client, either the conversation was over (at any length), or the client left. There were some that I guided half a year or even longer.

But now I don't guide officially, so I don't have a timeline. Please don't worry about the time, since you are the only person I'm guiding, and this is not too taxing for me, (as long as you are OK with me skipping a few days here and there :)

Ok, I have been trying to notice that. Old stories, patterns, defences, victim stories, fear stories etc that seem to solidify the sense of separation.

Please focus on these. This could be your "next step". This is so crucial. Any time a familiar pattern shows up, look and search for the one who is hurt, who is angry, who is defending, etc.

So not just simply for a me, but for the "one that is angry, or feeling this or that".

Look and see again and again that the person who is hurt, who had that experience in childhood, etc. is simply not there. Doesn't matter how often or how much it shows up, look again and again and SEE it's absence.

Also notice the effect of the seeing of its absence on the body. In the moment when it's seen, usually there is a wave of relaxation. Sometimes just for a moment, (since the sense of self is in manifest again), but that's all right. Then just look and SEE it again.

Thank you for your guidance and wisdom and clear pointing.

You are most welcome :)

[Catherine1]

Dear Vivien,
I am happy to hear that there is no time limit on our relationship! Great! It is such a luxury to have access to you and to have such personal , direct guidance - until, I guess, it is not personal at all ;-))

This yo-yoing, or flip-flopping can happen quite quickly and many (even hundred) times a day, depending on the gravity of the default setting, OR what is being triggered in any moment. The more painful baggage the seeming person carries, the more often the personal I will be triggered into manifestation.

Therapy looks different now. I work as a psychotherapist in a small drug and alcohol /PTSD residential Rehab in Pottsville NSW. I use Byron Katie's work as much as possible with the clients but they are a long way from accepting Non Duality and it feels as though therapy is just papering over the cracks. Lately, looking at old hurts that trigger a 'me' is done by noticing the pristine non existence of me as a little girl, the radiant non existence of my mother/father etc. Revisiting my siblings' suicides and noticing that all that time, all those seeming struggles were not happening to a 'me' and was not inflicted by a 'them'. It was life unfolding, neither good nor bad, not right or wrong, and this brings a real and complete healing, a truth, not a half baked understanding or a rearranging/reframing of the situations. Continued looking seems needed for full resolution but at last there is a sense of some reconciliation with the fundamental truth of no self. It's like going back and erasing the lines of the past until just emptiness and no thing ness is understood.

And full 'Reconciliation' is what this whole thing is about for 'me'.

Yes, it is happening countless times a day. So the gradual dissolution is more gentle.

Its taken a long time to accept but settling in to the 'gradual path' is a blessing and there is gratitude for not waiting for the big HAPPENING anymore.

There is a big difference between seeing that there is no personal self, and the full dissolution of the sense of self.

Right, and your last post was reassuring because there is a lot of emphasis ( in the Spiritual/Non Dual Marketplace) on the moment where 'it all shifts and there is no looking back for ever after', You telling me that it can take years was very helpful. Of course there is a wanting of that but knowing that that is not the only road to Rome is a relief.

There is a big difference between seeing that there is no personal self, and the full dissolution of the sense of self.

Yes, that is clearly seen and known. The full dissolution of the sense of self is the reconciliation that is sought here. I can't imagine stopping before the sense of self is completely dissolved. And then there is a feeling of deepening and deepening that clarity. That is the pathless path.

Or... we could say that there will be no distinction between God and I... since they are being one and the same.

Hmmm, right. And this is no separation between anything. So exquisite.

In the moment when it's seen, usually there is a wave of relaxation.

That's right, no tension, no conflict, complete, whole, clear.

Many people stop here, with the fist step, and eventually hanging onto a conceptualized idea of there being no personal self.

Well, the drive doesn't seem to be slowing down, its as though no stone can be left unturned, no stopping until the way is smooth and consistent, lived, known and I guess, embodied (although I'm not sure what that means).

There is no problem with you skipping days. I actually hadn't seen your reply and was logging in to see if you're ok. There is a sense of you holding my hand, something I have longed for for years on this Way. I'm heeding your advice about 'triggers' being the 'next step'. I'll keep looking.......xxx

[Vivien]

Hi Catherine,

How things are going with triggers?
can you catch them and see them in real time?
Can you just observe an watch them, even if there is a reaction?

Are you what you are watching?

[Catherine1]

Dear Vivien,
Sorry for the delay in responding. My kids have gone to Melbourne and I was waiting till they left to respond

How things are going with triggers?

Actually feelings seem to be stronger lately which is good I guess - they don't go unnoticed! When feelings come I have been noticing the hook, then looking for the one who is hurt/angry etc, and there is nothing there. The feeling very quickly dissipates, so fast sometimes it make me laugh.

can you catch them and see them in real time?

It can take a few minutes if the feeling is strong but yes, there is a capacity to see, while the energy is strong, that it is just happening, happening to no one.

Can you just observe an watch them, even if there is a reaction?

This morning there was joy and it seemed harder to disidentify from this than anger in some ways. But yes, there is a sense of zooming out and suddenly it's not just me being angry, its that anger is arising within vastness. I'll look at this more.

Are you what you are watching?

No. Definetly not. Not that it is separate but it is the same as everything else. The feeling is happening within Awareness.

There are lots of thoughts about being frustrated with the process but when there is looking there is seeing so there is comfort in that.

Is our conversation private Vivien? Can other people on the forum see our messages? If so, is it ok to switch to emails?
x

[Catherine1]

More on this Vivien.....this morning thoughts arise about my son, in Melbourne being left on his own all day yesterday by his dad with no food not knowing when anyone was coming back. Let down by his dad yet again... familiar rage and powerlessness arise to familiar thresholds, more thoughts of what I want to do/say fuel the anger.

Awareness arrives. Who is feeling this? Short look under the hood reveals that the feelings are there, the thoughts were but they suddenly vanish, and then everything falls into place and the world continues on, as everything happening. Anger fades away.

Watching as the thoughts come, trigger feeling, triggering more thoughts. All centred on me and I.

When it is seen that no I or me is, then life goes on as everything, no interuption.

[Vivien]

This thread is public. Probably no one knows who you are, so you can write here, but if you don't feel comfortable writing about certain topics, then you can send a private message. Later, we can come back to this thread. It's much easier to communicate here.

[Catherine1]

Ok, let’s keep going here. No problem.

[Vivien]

All right. So is there anything that is bothering you and you can share it here? or not, feel free to write a private message :)

[Catherine1]

Hi Vivien,
It’s not that big a deal, we can keep going here. I often don’t see your reply (get an email notification) so sorry fir the delay in responding. I’m still bursting with fire- it doesn't diminish. Lately the entire focus is on catching ‘I’ thoughts and investigating. Reliably there is a sense of rightness, truth, openness, expansion, dissolution. It’s very quiet and there’s not much to say about it. There is gratitude but no one feeling it, sometime physical pain comes and then there is the opportunity to see that it is sensation happening but not to a me.
There is no end to the opportunities.
Love.

[Vivien]

well, if there isn't too much to say then you don't have to write every day either. Just when you feel like it, or something has come up. It's up to you. No pressure :)

[Catherine1]

Ok,
Thanks Vivien,
It's nice yo know you're there. It seems that there is not much to be done other than to keep looking and investigating I thoughts at the moment.
There is sure to be another wave of something at some point and we can talk then.
Much gratitude,
Catherine.

[Catherine1]

Dear Vivien,
I hope you're well.
I think about contacting you daily but there is very little to say.
There is an observing of life, noticing thought, and continuing to see through the sense of the separate self. There is no feeling of having achieved anything, there is just being, now. There is not really any seeking energy going on, there is more just noticing. Frequently throughout the day there is noticing the thoughts and stories running and being identified with and as, and then a little bit of reminding happens and the small self is seen through again and again and again, all throughout the day (and night sometimes too!)
That is all that is happening.
It is nice to listen to LU talks still but there is no need to.
Strong feelings and emotion are reminders to enquire "to whom is this feeling happening" and there is the beautiful understanding that it is arising all by itself, it's not a 'my feeling', it is not happening to 'me' it is just arising and falling.
There is gratitude for knowing you are still close by and for having had the benefit of your guidance so far.
I will stay in touch and perhaps come to Brisbane to have a session with you one day.
Let me know if you think anything here needs adjusting.
Much love,
Catherine.

[Vivien]

Hi Catherine,

Thank you for your updates. Well, I cannot really add anything to what you wrote. The process is unfolding already.

But if you are OK with that, I'd like to ask you some questions that will be shown to other guides to read it, to see if they have any input or comment. Are you OK with that?