Seeking more than an intellectual understanding

[solstice]

I get the impression you think it is a bad thing to be coming up empty, it's not.

Sorry that was not what I intended, seeing the emptiness is the point of the looking right?

Try seeing if you can find the story behind the thought.

Could you expand on this please?
Would the story behind the thought be something like "I am not good enough" or "I deserve this", my thoughts are generally quite negative 🙃 (and victimising) so those are the only examples I can come up with right now. Perhaps these are due to being so removed from the true nature due to my sticky self, or maybe that is just another story I am telling myself as I type this.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

No it does not choose, it is no more than the outcome of the random initial state of each of those things being played out based on the physical laws of how they interact.


Once again the following questions are hurting my brain, in a good way hahaha

Can you find anywhere where "Solstice" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

Not really. Related to the stories(?) above there are some deep desires which feel like they influence "choices" made in life, however I am not sure if it is Solstice that drives those, when I started typing this I thought it was but now I am much less certain. It is funny, the idea of not being in control is both terrifying and relieving at the same time.

Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

What to wear:
The main influences are temperature & activities. If activities don't involve seeing people who I want to look good for then whatever is most suited for the temperature and activities will be chosen (ie old clothes if working out). If the activities will have me be seen by others who I want to impress, more care will be taken to look stylish, sometimes it will take me some time as I can be quite indecisive. As for where preferences come/came from I am not entirely sure, mostly from past experiences? Most of my preferences are just what I like because they are enjoyable in a sensory way (from food to music etc). While some are probably at least in part influenced by other people, both positively and negatively correlated to what those other people's preferences are.

Can anything be found for which "Solstice" is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Hmm once again not really, if I/solstice is a thought/chain(s) of thoughts it is definitely the most distracting from direct experience, so would you say it is responsible for taking awareness away from what is really occurring?
It is weird it feels as though solstice is responsible for everything and nothing at the same time. I suppose this makes sense as you are trying to get me to see the latter whilst the self is trying to hold on and prove it's importance.

"I" thoughts seem to be just echoes of past experiences trying to retroactively give meaning to past experiences or proactively influence future experiences. However in saying that it is still easier to write this down than it is to truly feel it when the thoughts still feel as though they have so much control. As I type this my internal monologue speaks the words but it lags behind, or sometimes tries to speed ahead as if to prove it is in control.

sorry for rambling lol, thanks for the questions :)

[jrm72]

Afternoon Solstice,

Try seeing if you can find the story behind the thought.
Could you expand on this please?

Yes, this needs more explanation -

We have a sensation in DE, be it a sight, sound, etc or a thought.
We then turn that into a feeling by adding a story, like we see a blue moving object which we label car.
We might then add all sorts of stories - the car appears dirty and damaged the driver is obviously poor and a bad driver.
Or the car appears new and expensive, so the driver earns too much money and is arrogant.

We weave stories about everything, none of which are true on so many levels.

For example, my story about you saying 'I'm coming up with nothing', which I assumed you meant was bad.
Completely wrong story on my part.

As a trivial example, what is your story about why chameleons change colour? (Google it 🤣)

It's a thought, combined or not, with other DE, triggers a feeling.
And a feeling is a sensation plus a story.

See through the stories.


❤️🖖

[solstice]

As a trivial example, what is your story about why chameleons change colour? (Google it 🤣)

My story is they do it to blend to help them hunt and hide from predators. Maybe also something to do with mating, but that is more of a gut guess.

Just googled it lol, guess my gut was the most right 😂 and my thoughts which were so certain they were right were wrong!

It's a thought, combined or not, with other DE, triggers a feeling.
And a feeling is a sensation plus a story.

By sensation do you mean in the body? How does a story trigger a feeling and how do I become more cognisant of these before getting sucked in?

[jrm72]

Evening Solstice,

Let's take a metaphorical step back and work our way through this.

Whatever DE actually is, can we say that it comes first?

So the senses come first,

Seeing happens
Hearing happens
Tasting happens
Smelling happens
Touching happens
Thoughts happen

As another story - how many senses do you think you have. (Google awaits)


❤️🖖

[solstice]

Whatever DE actually is, can we say that it comes first?

Yes, reread your last post and it makes more sense now. Had just woken up when I first read it 😂

As another story - how many senses do you think you have. (Google awaits)

The 5 everyone knows, plus some scientists consider others such as sense of balance, no clue how many all up.
After googling it looks like even the scientists can't agree lol

So a story is a thought told about some DE (which can also be a thought), and when we combine the DE and the thought about the DE it is a feeling.

So would some feelings, be a thought about a thought about a thought x1000?

[jrm72]

Morning Solstice,

So would some feelings, be a thought about a thought about a thought x1000?

Yes.


Now, the eyes are a part of the system that creates seeing.
The nose is a part of the system that creates smelling
etc.
The brain is a part of all the other systems and it creates thoughts (well that's what my story says).
But just as I open my eyes and see, because thats what appears to happen.
Thoughts occur (where from? Well in DE I'll probably never know. I can have loads of stories about it though) and they just happen.

So DE happens.
We then interpret our DE, so the stories kick in so fast we don't even notice.
And remember, no story is true, and what I mean by that is no story is actual reality.

As an exercise -

Look straight ahead, there will be things in your peripheral vision that have no labels attached to them yet.
As you start to think about them, labels will appear (red smudge, light area, unknown something, I guess that might be the edge if the table, etc).
Now slowly turn your head or move your eyes. You're looking (pun intended) for the point where the labels snap in.
Oh, that's a bottle or it's the kettle etc (you can probably tell I'm sitting in our kitchen right now).

Now this point of snap happens with all our DE (including thoughts).
The easiest one I found to work with was sound. Sitting with eyes closed, hearing happens.
I am not trying to hear, when a sound happens hearing happens.
It's not that you are hearing, it's at that moment "you are hearing".
The thing that we call awareness is at the moment of hearing, hearing and nothing else.

So back to the thought about a thought about a thought -
What do you think (pun intended) about that now?
And not some feelings, all feelings?

You asked how all this becomes real, that is experiential rather than intellectual.
I can answer from my experience, but how do you think it will happen?


❤️🖖

[solstice]

So back to the thought about a thought about a thought -
What do you think (pun intended) about that now?
And not some feelings, all feelings?

I think I have lots of thought chains, I think they all probably had some initial DE ties to them when I was young but those have long been buried by the mountain of thoughts (however as you said this is just another story).
I think most feelings are probably caused by these thought chains if that is what you were asking, however some feelings do feel more closely linked to DE such as being in awe of something beautiful.

You asked how all this becomes real, that is experiential rather than intellectual.
I can answer from my experience, but how do you think it will happen?

I would imagine that as my awareness becomes stronger/sharper the gap between direct experience occurring and the stories being told will become more noticeable, until they become obviously distinct, making it easier to not get wrapped up in them. Is this close at all?

[jrm72]

Evening Solstice,

I would imagine that as my awareness becomes stronger/sharper the gap between direct experience occurring and the stories being told will become more noticeable, until they become obviously distinct, making it easier to not get wrapped up in them. Is this close at all?

Yes, gaps are your friend.

It's not so much noticing the gap, it's being the gap.
My story is now saying you will ask, how can I be the gap.
Hearing is usually easiest to work with - look for the gap between hearing a sound and being aware of that sound.


❤️🖖

[solstice]

It's not so much noticing the gap, it's being the gap.
My story is now saying you will ask, how can I be the gap.
Hearing is usually easiest to work with - look for the gap between hearing a sound and being aware of that sound.

Interesting, thank you I will try that!

[solstice]

Hearing is usually easiest to work with - look for the gap between hearing a sound and being aware of that sound.

I’m not sure if I’m doing this right. Should the gap be almost imperceptible at first?

[jrm72]

Morning Solstice,

You're doing it perfectly.
Think about the implications of what you're telling me.
Remember, it's what you experience that counts.

If there's no gap where you're looking, what does that mean?
Maybe the gap is somewhere else?

❤️🖖

[solstice]

If there's no gap where you're looking, what does that mean?
Maybe the gap is somewhere else?

I'm not sure I understand, could you elaborate please :)

[jrm72]

Morning solstice,

Yes, of course -

If you can find no separation between your awareness and hearing a sound then does this not show that awareness is not aware of hearing, but that awareness is hearing (and all the other senses).
So., it's not that you are aware of hearing etc, it's that you are hearing etc.
The you (Solstice or whichever other label you use) is just one thought among the many that appear. And thoughts are just one of the sensations that, along with all the other DE, is awareness.
Awareness is what is, what is - is awareness. There is nothing else, because that is everything.

What else can there be?


As to gaps - they appear between awareness and the content of thoughts (not the thoughts themselves).
So, DE happens, then incredibly quickly a label is added.

Here is where language gets difficult, for it's incorrect to say you hear a sound then add a label. It's more you are the sound (the DE), the sound is you. The heard, the hearing and the hearer are not 3 separate things, they are one.
The difficulty comes now, because you are thinking about this, but the thinking, the thinker and the thought are not separate.

A lot to take in.
Feel free to explore, reject, experience ❤️

[solstice]

If you can find no separation between your awareness and hearing a sound then does this not show that awareness is not aware of hearing, but that awareness is hearing (and all the other senses).

Okay cool this is what I thought you were pointing towards!

Here is where language gets difficult, for it's incorrect to say you hear a sound then add a label. It's more you are the sound (the DE), the sound is you. The heard, the hearing and the hearer are not 3 separate things, they are one.
The difficulty comes now, because you are thinking about this, but the thinking, the thinker and the thought are not separate.

Does everyone label everything? At least for sound I feel as though there is no label unless I focus on the sound after it has occurred, then the labelling seems to begin. Most often I do not do this intentional focusing so it feels as though there is no labelling? Or is the labelling just “deeper” (not the best word but best I can think of right now) and that is why it requires focus to be noticed?

[jrm72]

Morning Solstice,

Does everyone label everything? At least for sound I feel as though there is no label unless I focus on the sound after it has occurred, then the labelling seems to begin. Most often I do not do this intentional focusing so it feels as though there is no labelling? Or is the labelling just “deeper” (not the best word but best I can think of right now) and that is why it requires focus to be noticed?

I have no way of knowing if everyone labels everything, I would guess some don't. My experience is similar to yours in the sense that a label becomes attached when I attend to DE. So sounds are going on and then I attach a label "That's the wind blowing." But then I realise I wan't really aware of the wind until I labelled it. Sitting here now I find the gap between the awareness and labelling almost imperceptible. I can tell it's there, but only by the use of an intermediate label. What I mean by that is I become aware when the label "sound" gets attached to a sound, then a moment later a more detailed label gets attached ("it's the wind"). I will ask other guides if anyone is aware of any DE without attaching any label.

❤️🖖