Did all ready happened

[Indivindi]

hei hei Rali...

How does it feel to see what actually is?

That’s what it is: is an experience of seeing, hearing, thinking, tasting, smelling, feeling.
It is interesting that these experiences are the foundation of what people, environment at the end of the day life itself appear or is happening. Life is happening and is always going ON. Senses are always ON even if we close eyes, cover ears, staying in non-gravitation space, drinking water that is supposed to be tasteless. And thoughts appearing and thinking is always ON. Until this point that is what it is.
It's really nice to see that, to clear it out. getting through all the mind mess/labels (thoughts). Somehow might be easier...need more time to let it be. And reflect in daily life...
I think if there is anything else to question about...But when thinking is happening about that that's it no where to goes on, nothing to strep off it become logic or silly to hunt the ghosts on if you realize what it is :)

Pear:
Feeling the coldness of Pear while I took it from the refrigerator (sensation). Seeing what I took out of the refrigerator is brownish Pear (color). The texture of fruit skin I am feeling is a bit rough (sensation).
I bit it and it was very juicy (sensation) and because it was fully ripe tasting it was sweet, a tasteful pear (taste).
It has that scent known as pear scent (smell). Thinking about what to do with the scrap, as there isn’t any basket nearby and it’s organic scrap so better not to leave it in some basket for days to degrade and become smelly (thoughts). Holding it with my fingers is sticky because of the sugar and juiciness in it (sensation).

Can the awareness of the blackness be separated from the blackness? Do you see a border where the awareness ends and the blackness begin? Are there two things - awareness and blackness – or just THIS/ what IS?

I cover my eyes, observe. Yes, blackness is there. Sound is also there. Thoughts are also there. Smell is also there. Sensation is also there. Blackness (color) is also there.
Experiences are there, there isn’t any one as a separate entity to experience that. So awareness is just a label that that experience of seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling and thinking are there/here. Awareness is thought too.
All experiences are happening simultaneously. As one thing, if we don’t make division about it there aren't border lines. This is just THIS/ what IS.
Life IS. There is no me that is doing it, controlling it…it’s all labeling in mind - thinking (thought). But now you can see it’s just experiences happening, life is manifesting…happening.
Experience happening no doer of them, no - thinker, interpreter, enjoyer, controller, worker, cooker, reader, watcher, skier, swimmer, yogi, batman, policeman, male, female, Slovene, Bulgarian, negro, asian, indian or white man, green and purple men…etc. None of that here.

Everything is happening by itself. Even if I decide so and stand up now, it isn’t me that is standing up but standing up just happened. I could label it I did it as this was my will. So even labeling isn't mine, it just happens to happen. As there isn't me here. So life is manifested through what we label bio-organism (body). And we were taught that this is my body, my little finger and that how thoughts become conditioned with self-identification on anything that is just happening. Programing happened. Whether there is that false I recognition or no false I recognition (which is the other side of the same coin). I could understand that non-self it is .
And just knowing that what it is, IS.
And there is no one to know.
And knowing is just thinking happening (thought).

And there goes all explanations about dualism, awareness... is so damn complex but so easy to understand if you peel everything to the point of DE. To the point what there is.
And if you want now you can see how everything is building up into what is not – illusion – maya – label measurement. (thoughts/thinking/words/labels).
There isn't anyone doing this experiment with you. There isn't even you.
This is just happening. "Somehow by the two of us." ahahaha
Yours and mine happening colliding. It happened to happen.

I might happen conclusion too soon? (thoughts)
Thinking is happening.
:)


PS: There is a cold sensation all over my body as I switch off the heating, days ago. (feeling is happening) My comp is in an underground room where there is also this big stove for heating. (color/seeing). There is all kinds of different stuff here in this room (all colors/seeing). Still experience the smell of yesterday's scent stick burning (smell/smelling).

PSS: Is there a hand movement happening? What is movement...hmmm...
just a combination of dynamic color and sensation.

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

Experiences are there, there isn’t any one as a separate entity to experience that. So awareness is just a label that that experience of seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling and thinking are there/here. Awareness is thought too.
All experiences are happening simultaneously. As one thing, if we don’t make division about it there aren't border lines. This is just THIS/ what IS.
Life IS. There is no me that is doing it, controlling it…it’s all labeling in mind - thinking (thought). But now you can see it’s just experiences happening, life is manifesting…happening.
Experience happening no doer of them, no - thinker, interpreter, enjoyer, controller, worker, cooker, reader, watcher, skier, swimmer, yogi, batman, policeman, male, female, Slovene, Bulgarian, negro, asian, indian or white man, green and purple men…etc. None of that here.

I enjoyed reading that! Awesome looking!

So life is manifested through what we label bio-organism (body). And we were taught that this is my body, my little finger and that how thoughts become conditioned with self-identification on anything that is just happening

Let’s explore a bit more “body”
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Hei, hei Rali...
I missed you :) for a day :)
I checked a bit of poppyseed threats from the past on the forum. I notice many people just vanish at some point and become thin-transparent air. Out of process...never goes/comes to the end. A thought occurred to me perhaps you vanish too.
:)

Let’s explore a bit more “body”
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cool drink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:

a. Your fingers are feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labeled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

Yes, fingers feel cold first/palm/skin, then labeling appears. With closed eyes you can connect to the layer/surface where sensation is triggered. And that’s thought connection, thinking happening – label.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

With eyes closed it’s hard to know the size of the body. It’s evidently a thought process, labeling in numbers based on memory information while you were measured externally.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Again you can measure it by thinking about it, you can feel the outer shape described by thought, but no there isn’t weight or volume possible to evaluate.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Those two words sound so same to me. Shape could be 2D. Form is more a clay molding expression in 3D.
When you look in the mirror it is 2D, a different combination of color creating an image of the body.
When I look at my hand typing it appears 3D – form…but is it really a form? As eyes are just ON, a window for brain/mind interpretation with labeling. Thought. Thinking.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

It’s just a sensation. Border is completely wiped out. I notice that many times when I lay down on the couch with stretched and crossed legs at the ankle area. And then after a while I can’t figure out which leg is on top of the other leg. Like completely losing division for sensation. As there aren’t borders.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

There is no me, no owner. So it’s just a body label for what is seen. Colors happening.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Not really. Just different conditions of experience. You can close your eyes and thoughts create a sort of insideless. Open eyes and experience happens sort of outside. But in both cases thought prevails. And thought is a thought with closed or open eyes. Even in a so-called dream state. No actual border either.
"Tonight I dream that whenever there is division/label here comes illusion - then it is no more "just this what it IS".

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Label body refers to experience happening by 5 senses and thought. If my observation in my previous question 3. was correct then actual experience of the body is thought.

Can the 'body' do things?

I would say NO, the body can’t do things. Things are happening …puff this flash of thought appears suddenly… It's all like in the movie matrix.

There isn’t me, there is just a thought about this body, things happening as they want…what a misery of a life as platform/phenomena :P like there is nothing existing, never was just an illusion of everything. dream


hmmm... let's go on...I would love to get to the bottom of it. :)
Thanks for your pointing's.

indi





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I would like to point out something, that perhaps is not meant to be a part of this LU conversation. Perhaps it is off topic. But perhaps it is a point to discuss. I’m trying to look at the points below through this LU process now…to settle with them in the right context. I write it in a simple old way of looking.

I have this state of agitation regularly in me for the second half of my life. At least I spotted it more after my 25 years of life shifted drastically. These states come and they go - flow. But at the moment this one is most inconvenient while constantly seeing things that need to be done and things that thinking is planning. But execution always takes time. And that overflow of thoughts makes me uncomfortable as I know I have to do one thing at the time. And knowing what else is on the list makes me frustrated. Sort of rush/pursuite/pushy feeling...inside dictator. As I can’t do all the things at the same time. I figured out that I must do things one by thing. One thing as a step. Finish then others. Sometimes I can’t choose which thing to do first. Then some kind of priorities are set up. Finishing then starting the next thing. Many times this way of thought puts me in an empathic, almost depressed way about things. I lost all the good will also for the things I love to do. This inside rat race is constantly pushing me for execution. So I lose all pleasure and happy moments of life. On the other side I notice how I should chill down the tempo, stop planning...am I really planning? Or is happening forcing me to plan and being overflowed with to do list...

So these fast mood swifts happen all the time. I just can’t cut the leash and free myself from that bad feeling. And actually I see myself. I would like to be just lazy some time and enjoy laziness.
You know to go with the flow, without constant stressing out... Nop it doesn’t work like that. Thinking is always interrupting what it is. Mood shifts. I would like to stop doing these things. And then all this confusion that I am not the doer, then happening happens that is a confusion. And I am tired of it… all those ups and downs. Those days are less and less in my life…but somehow things just go somewhere, I don’t have control nor will to control it, but it appears I am not satisfied.

I tried so many things in life that occur on my life path, things happened, really dynamic life. I don’t know actually why I am living. This life is and it seems I just don’t have any more interest in it. I feel like I would just like to lose whatever is left of me. Sort of not living and let things just happen unconsciously. Without myself experiencing anything. Just to let go of the flow of life. And that is someone speaking that actually has everything. No worries about working to survive, I haven't worked for almost a decade, but I still do many things, have all the 24h/day, no worries where to sleep, eat, to be cold. On top of it many things that I possess but sometimes I think they actually possess me. I would give them away but no I will keep them just in case or for some reason.

Despite all the good and not so nice things that happened, I experienced a variety from all kinds of fields in life.
but … ever since I feel this boredom. Since I was a small kid. People say that I have everything and that I am not thankful. How can you be bored? This whole life thing is boring… After a while or some time really fast new things become so boring. I lack interest, I am not enthusiastic, I lose most of my wishes, if I think about what I wish I don’t find anything interesting…like I am full of walls/blockages/filtering. Life itself is limiting me so I don't expect and dream to mislead myself.
On the other side I still happen/do a lot of things.
Mostly I feel like a tedious/dull observer. Waiting for something that even I don’t know what it should be. Without even knowing what I wish.

I throw away my medals, successes, titles, achievements decades ago, false virtual social network identifications, but it seems that until there is "I" persistent life doesn't have to have non-meaning.
Just to be life…what it is.
Flow – Flux.

Perhaps that is what I am looking after in my life. And also this is a view on your question “what do I expect about LU”. A hidden gem that pops out today and is covered with everything that is not.

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

I didn’t realise I was gone for that long :)

Yes, fingers feel cold first/palm/skin, then labeling appears. With closed eyes you can connect to the layer/surface where sensation is triggered. And that’s thought connection, thinking happening – label.

Yes! Do sensations have a location? OR the location is a label? LOOK!

When you look in the mirror it is 2D, a different combination of color creating an image of the body.
When I look at my hand typing it appears 3D – form…but is it really a form? As eyes are just ON, a window for brain/mind interpretation with labeling. Thought. Thinking.

How are “2D” and “3D” experienced in DE? What are “eyes”, “mind” and “brain” in DE? How are they experienced? Yes, there is seeing and thinking, but what suggests that “eyes” and “brain” are doing it? You reported there were no eyes observing the “blackness”, so look now for this “brain” and describe please how it is producing the thoughts. What makes thinking appear?
You say : “When you look in the mirror it is 2D, a different combination of color creating an image of the body.” Is there any connection between the sensations “body” and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is? Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours? Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. You say the hand appears to be “3D”. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Can the 'body' do things?

I would say NO, the body can’t do things. Things are happening …puff this flash of thought appears suddenly… It's all like in the movie matrix.

Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ (‘doing’) be found?

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

I would like to point out something, that perhaps is not meant to be a part of this LU conversation. Perhaps it is off topic. But perhaps it is a point to discuss. I’m trying to look at the points below through this LU process now…to settle with them in the right context. I write it in a simple old way of looking.
…

Thanks for letting me know of this. We’ll come back to this once we lay the “foundations” .
Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Hi Rali

Do sensations have a location? OR the location is a label? LOOK!

Not really mind/thought made focus on some point/location. So location is a label.

How are “2D” and “3D” experienced in DE? What are “eyes”, “mind” and “brain” in DE?

2D & 3D is experienced with seeing. (color)
“Eyes”, “mind” and “brain” in DE are labels. (thought)

How are they experienced? Yes, there is seeing and thinking, but what suggests that “eyes” and “brain” are doing it?

It’s assumed that eyes and brains are doing it. That’s not DE. So it’s thinking that they are doing it. So it’s labeling again.

You reported there were no eyes observing the “blackness”, so look now for this “brain” and describe please how it is producing the thoughts. What makes thinking appear?

Sorry….I am not 100% on this one about blackness from our previous writings. Before I continue I need a clarification. I can’t get it and I see how I complicate it. 

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Indi, a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
It’s just founding blackness. There is nowhere me, myself and I.
No mentioning of an eye in my answer.
I still understand that with closed eyes blackness is seen. Seeing blackness is an experience of black color. I didn't realize that blackness is supposed to be just there. I don't have that realization with looking, that would be an assumption form myself.
A. Taking light away from the eye. Eye is always ON. So if I stay in the room without any light with open eyes blackness is there. So blackness is always here and only disappears when light is present. So in that case I could understand that eyes actually don't witness the blackness. So eyes only work when there is light. They don’t perceive blackness. So blackness is just here.

3) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
You can look but nothing can be found. No subject, no identity, person, no one there/here in blackness.


B. So if there is no identity/person that is seeing/witnessing the blackness it means there is no one to see with the eyes and there isn’t seeing of blackness at all. So what is it? Blackness it’s just IS.

I have a challenge to follow the red line. The understanding of DE is just piling up. Most of it I got. But as now I want to understand things we are pointing out and sometimes it seems I don't understand it right or can't experience it in the way you are questioning? I LOOK but I can't see. I don't know how to look different or deeper...And then I drag that missing or misunderstood part with me and I feel something is not right.

I will answer the rest of your question after I clear that out about blackness. Thank you for understanding.
All the best, indi

PS:
I have a challenge to follow the red line. To me it would be helpful to have a short notice/follow up (a few sentences) about what we figured out with the previous post in your next pointing questioner.
As I said, I could lose the big picture...as I am struggling at the moment to get it right.
I am trying to do this follow up by myself but to me it seems I just use my way of thinking/knowledge/memory that is interpreting things in its own/different way as they are.
This would be really helpful.
Or I also think this is not the pointing DE process and it won't work out as it is just becoming a memorizing/knowledge way of understanding instead of direct experiencing what is all about.

You call it.

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

Not really mind/thought made focus on some point/location. So location is a label.

What exactly is “focus”? Where is this “point”? Where is the reference point for "left", "right", "up" or "down"?

2D & 3D is experienced with seeing. (color)

So “2D” and “3D” are labels for colour, right?

Sorry….I am not 100% on this one about blackness from our previous writings. Before I continue I need a clarification. I can’t get it and I see how I complicate it. 

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Indi, a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
It’s just founding blackness. There is nowhere me, myself and I.
No mentioning of an eye in my answer.

My bad! So can you see “eyes”? What do they look like? Do you see eyes looking at the “blackness”?

I still understand that with closed eyes blackness is seen. Seeing blackness is an experience of black color. I didn't realize that blackness is supposed to be just there. I don't have that realization with looking, that would be an assumption form myself.
A. Taking light away from the eye. Eye is always ON. So if I stay in the room without any light with open eyes blackness is there. So blackness is always here and only disappears when light is present. So in that case I could understand that eyes actually don't witness the blackness. So eyes only work when there is light. They don’t perceive blackness. So blackness is just here.

Is that story (scientific or made up) actually supported by DE? We defined “blackness” not as black colour but whatever is seen with eyes closed. We constrained the experience to just colour (no objects).
So how is it known that “eyes only work when there is light”? Is that anything experienced in DE? What is “light” in DE?
Let’s repeat the experiment with eyes opened
Again, address this very simply - the 'seeing' sense only for the moment.
With eyes open, a world of objects appears . . . a room . . . a computer screen etc.
What you can specifically see isn't of interest here, and whatever it is, I am simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'.
This might be a little more tricky, but give it some consideration.
1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?
3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Indi be found that is seeing/witnessing 'what can be seen'?
Is “what can be seen” seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er (a pair of eyes), be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

I have a challenge to follow the red line. To me it would be helpful to have a short notice/follow up (a few sentences) about what we figured out with the previous post in your next pointing questioner.
As I said, I could lose the big picture...as I am struggling at the moment to get it right.
I am trying to do this follow up by myself but to me it seems I just use my way of thinking/knowledge/memory that is interpreting things in its own/different way as they are.
This would be really helpful.
Or I also think this is not the pointing DE process and it won't work out as it is just becoming a memorizing/knowledge way of understanding instead of direct experiencing what is all about.

You can’t lose the big picture because all of the pointing is towards the big picture. I’m just pointing to it from different angles. The recap that you want should come from you, otherwise, if it’s not your recap, it becomes a new set of beliefs that you are learning. So if you want you can show me where you are by a short summary of what you’ve seen (realised) and it has sunk in. It will help me to see where further pointing is needed ( like with eyes).
Is that OK with you?

Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Jay Rali jay…

What exactly is “focus”? Where is this “point”? Where is the reference point for "left", "right", "up" or "down"?

Focus is thought (thinking). As there isn't a reference point (no identity that I could find) there can’t be points in any direction/location.

So “2D” and “3D” are labels for colour, right?

Yes they are just labels for color.

So can you see “eyes”? What do they look like? Do you see eyes looking at the “blackness”?

I can’t see eyes. Eye can’t see itself. They are labels/objects not part of DE. There aren’t any you that could see how eyes are looking at the blackness.

Is that story (scientific or made up) actually supported by DE?

It’s part of a scientific explanation I stumbled upon. A part is from thinking (thoughts).
But none of it is supported by DE. So we keep experience constrained to color without object. Experience of any 5 senses without an object. Got it.

So how is it known that “eyes only work when there is light”? Is that anything experienced in DE? What is “light” in DE?

Light is labeled in DE for colour. You can’t experience working of eye in DE. In DE you can’t see if the eye is working or not. With DE you can’t determine anything else about the eye except that it is an object/label/word/thought. I attached ideas round the eyes about it, which are thoughts – labels. Not DE.

1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?

Yes, what is experienced is the seeing sense in the moment. That’s what can be seen.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?

Nothing else, just that which can be seen.

3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?

No person/witness/subject could be found.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Indi be found that is seeing/witnessing 'what can be seen'?

None of it can see or witness what can be seen.

Is “what can be seen” seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?

If there would be an entity inside then it would be seen as through the windows. As there is no entity this isn't the case. It’s more like windscreen view.

Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. What do you find?

I don’t find anything, no one that is observing. Like a film is rolling on the big screen in a theatre by itself for the sake of itself. Just rolling…happening...appearing.

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er (a pair of eyes), be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

No observer/entity/witness-er/subject/see-er. A pair of eyes are not the observer, can't be an entity. Concept/idea/thought indeed. On every corner of our lives.

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You reported there were no eyes observing the “blackness”, so look now for this “brain” and describe please how it is producing the thoughts. What makes thinking appear?

No one here could be identified as a user of the brain. Brain isn’t producing anything. Concept/idea/thought. We can’t know the doing of the brain as there isn’t any entity here that is experiencing thinking or brain object. Brain is the label.

You say : “When you look in the mirror it is 2D, a different combination of color creating an image of the body.”
Is there any connection between the sensation “body” and the image in the mirror?

No connection between the sensations “body” and the image in the mirror”.

Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

What can be seen/appear in the mirror is just a thought labeling those colors.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

You can’t suggest anything. With DE it is clear that what is seen are colors and there are thoughts/labels about an image which is a thinking experience. As here is no subject it is not possible to identify anything as “my reflection in mirror”.

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?

No. Colors grouped in a way, labels/descriptions/identification of image, thought divides it into things/objects.

Or are there only colours?

Yes, colors only.

Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Knowledge is there assuming (not DE) that there must be legs. Knowledge is a label for thoughts.
In DE only thoughts and mental images suggest that there must be legs.

Move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and the image of movement in the mirror?

No connection between the sensations “hand” and the image of movement in the mirror”.

Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. You say the hand appears to be “3D”. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Just thoughts assuming it as 3D (in DE 3D is label for colors)… No connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’.
There is no one to feel sensation or movement of image hand.
Sensation is direct experience that just is.

Can the 'body' do things?
I would say NO, the body can’t do things. Things are happening …puff this flash of thought appears suddenly… It's all like in the movie matrix.
Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

There is only sensation.
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Walking is a label for sensation. Thought.

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Yes.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Body is just a label for color. Labels are words, words are thoughts, thoughts about the body (thinking).

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ (‘doing’) be found?

Can’t be found. No one here to do it. Walking is a thought suggestion for movement. Label walking is word, word is thought. So ‘I am’ thinking that I am walking but “LOOKING” with DE there IS just a sensation. ???is that so???

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labeled ‘room’ and sensations appearing without any location?

There is an image that is labeled ‘room’ and sensation appearing without any location. Because there isn’t a space labeled room and there isn’t a reference point/subject here that can’t be ‘going through the room’ doing it.
So there are colors (seeing) which is image labeled as a ‘room’. So there isn’t room, what it is just the experience of seeing without see-er.
And as there isn’t room/space (label) there isn’t walking (label- thought suggestion) through space. It is just a sensation appearing.



Is then the same with sound, taste, and smell as in a case of color, sensation and thought?
Is my assumption in place that there is a DE pattern/some relation between 5 senses ‘how this what it is just IS’?

…pattern seems to be Concept/idea/thought again…
Life is a set full of labeling, happening things without anyone to do it. A DE that is totally messed up/covered DE until is set up to the foundation perception?

Thank you for clarification part, what is next… B)
Read you…
indi

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

Very good!

Is then the same with sound, taste, and smell as in a case of color, sensation and thought?

You can repeat the seeing exercise with the rest of the senses and look if there are inherent smell-er, feel-er, listener, or taster. Look respectively also for a pair of ears, tongue, skin, or nose :)

…pattern seems to be Concept/idea/thought again…
Life is a set full of labeling, happening things without anyone to do it. A DE that is totally messed up/covered DE until is set up to the foundation perception?

Yes! The “world” is built on concepts and ideas, describing experience. All there is, is just THIS – seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, and thinking, with no smell-er, taste-r, seer, listener, feel-er, and thinker. These last are “added”/created by language. Language is helpful for communication, but beyond that, what it talks about is empty of inherent existence. Thus, emptiness in the Buddhist sense simply means that something is empty of self-nature. Just like a school is a thing that doesn't exist, it is empty of school-essence. Labels are pointing to experience but do not exist inherently. Clear?

Is my assumption in place that there is a DE pattern/some relation between 5 senses ‘how this what it is just IS’?

Don't ask me, look for yourself. let's explore the senses a bit further:
1. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”. Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.
Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

2. Close your eyes and allow a thought or a series of thoughts to appear. Continue to pay attention to thoughts as they appear for a few more seconds. With your eyes still closed, listen to whatever sound is present for several moments. Now, go back and forth between thoughts and the sound.
Does the sound appear in a different “place” to thoughts?
Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct?

Now open your eyes and notice colours.
Do the colours appear in a different “place” to thoughts and sounds?
Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides thoughts, sounds and colours, or is that division a mental construct?

You can also do the above experiment with sensation and sound instead of thought and sound and see what you find. And taste and sound, smell and sound, thought and colour. There is a variety ways of doing this exercise to see whether or not there is an internal and external divide.

3.Without labels, are there 5 senses and thinking, or one indivisible seeing_tasting_hearing_sensing_smelling_thinking (THIS)? Can the senses be isolated without thought content?

Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Hi Rali
That was a really quick reply from you yesterday. :)

As I observe the rest of the senses and mental phenomena there isn’t source/subject/entity as inherent smell-er, feel-er, listener, or taster. It’s a major difference among things you read about it and understand it in comparison LOOKING for it and seeing it.

Clear?

Yes it’s clear what is happening while mental interruption takes over the inherent existence. And non-existing identity takes the course of non-control in life.
All kinds of things, mysteries, mysticism, business…mess :)

Let's explore the senses a bit further:

1. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”. Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.
Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

Good question. As I observe there is seeing, listening and sensation…while I am typing this answer with cold fingers (sensation) and listening to my last DJ set (sound) in my room (color). Appearing simultaneously somehow as separate happenings. There are many other senses too but it seems as if they aren’t ‘in perception’. As that there is filtering/selection.

2. Close your eyes and allow a thought or a series of thoughts to appear. Continue to pay attention to thoughts as they appear for a few more seconds. With your eyes still closed, listen to whatever sound is present for several moments. Now, go back and forth between thoughts and the sound.
Does the sound appear in a different “place” to thoughts? Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct?

Both appeared in the same ‘place’. And there aren't truly borders to be found between those two senses. It is a mental thing, yes somehow the thing what ‘mind’ (object label) is going on.

Now open your eyes and notice colours.
Do the colours appear in a different “place” to thoughts and sounds?
Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides thoughts, sounds and colours, or is that division a mental construct?

No line/wall/boundary that divides thoughts, sounds and colors, just that division as a mental construct. More you look, the more you see that sensations are omnipresent and that there is internal division of that external what it is.

3.Without labels, are there 5 senses and thinking, or one indivisible seeing_tasting_hearing_sensing_smelling_thinking (THIS)? Can the senses be isolated without thought content?

It is one indivisible seeing_tasting_hearing_sensing_smelling_thinking (THIS). When content about experience is attached (thoughts/labels/words) isolation of senses appears and division is here. No more of that, that it is.


Hmmm...
Cheers, indi

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

Yes it’s clear what is happening while mental interruption takes over the inherent existence. And non-existing identity takes the course of non-control in life.
All kinds of things, mysteries, mysticism, business…mess :)

Can you please explain further? I didn’t get what you were saying here.

More you look, the more you see that sensations are omnipresent and that there is internal division of that external what it is.

You mean “experience”? Remember “sensation” is a label for feeling. Yes, senses might be empty of inherent existence but still for the sake of communication during this inquiry it’s good to be clear with the labels :)

It is one indivisible seeing_tasting_hearing_sensing_smelling_thinking (THIS). When content about experience is attached (thoughts/labels/words) isolation of senses appears and division is here. No more of that, that it is.

Great! Let’s explore the thinking aspect of experience a bit more…

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?


Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Hi Rali
My weak side of English explanation…You were talking about division as a mental construct. And I said that it is clear what is happening while these mental constructs ‘interruptions’ in everyday life of an average person take over the inherent existence. I comment like there isn’t any entity in us that non-existing but still identifying ‘false ego’ takes over the course of non-controlling in life (as there isn’t any one that controls life, but most people try to control it, affirming that they are in control of their lives.
And I conclude that what a mess is on the market with all spiritual, religious, mystic, mysteries = all business, and most people just keep on going in circles looking and never finding what there is as their foundations are not built up from scratch. Or just piled down to the bottom of DE.

I just have this strong old program I am aware of but sometimes it just slips over. senses  sensations
Instead senses  sense organs. Also due to our Slovenian language which is in that case more advance… čuti  čutila.
More you look, the more you see that senses/experience are omnipresent and that there is internal division of that external what it is.
:)
--------------------------------------------
Back to the thinking aspect of experience…

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognizes the thought or is being aware of it?

No one I could find.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

I look, what I spotted is that thoughts are here and suddenly like a flow thoughts are in the mode of thinking. No particular border, shifter…

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I look at these phenomena, thoughts are just appearing.
I have the same feeling that mental constructs make us feel that that’s our thoughts, which we are thinking, that we are picking up topic of thoughts. Mental constructs make the whole thing as there is cause and reason.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

There isn’t me in control of thought/thinking flow as there isn’t me. I used to chant, and I might come to the point that you aren’t aware of thoughts but most of the time thoughts were just appearing whether you won’t or not so ‘called’ ‘stillness or control of the thought’. No go. I figured that out pretty fast. And was not buying it. But that was all in some different set of mind. Illusive as a regular spiritual man has it. Although I wasn’t regular at all as I was full of questions and most of the teachers didn’t like that kind of behavior. Forget about it, just some thoughts popping out here :)

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No way of selection…ahahaha… People wish and can try with a letter to Santa Claus. Teachers teach, but newer find anyone that would this happen to him, just pleasant thoughts.
Also what is pleasant or not. If there isn’t a point of center from where or to what, compare different thoughts how you can know anything. You can’t. It’s just a thought. No dualism.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

They just are and they change to something else. I ain’t choosing anything at all.
Today I try to read a book of Vedic tales, sort of easy reading for lying on the beach. I couldn’t stand any more how the content is packed full of mystic, unreal, non-explanatory situations of characters…I close the book. I had that feeling that this pointing process is starting to do the cuts on that topic to read too.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No. I can’t. Mental construct can tell this is thought that you pick up. But the more I see the DE more you see what this is and what it is not. More that you are aware of no self or non-self-phenomena more it is clear what that is what it is.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

You don’t have any control on the thoughts, no matter if you are a hard believer that you are picking them up, you’ll sooner or later realize that you don’t have any control over why and how thoughts are popping up. Once you know there isn’t anyone that is experiencing thoughts, the whole perception starts to shift. It’s actually unexplainable. It’s something that is noticed, like on the end of your tongue but you just can’t explain it with words. No cop, no traffic light and thought traffic/flow signs…

Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

They aren’t appearing and they aren’t going anywhere. They just are. Appearing is just a label for that, that thoughts are here.
They just appeared, no correlation. They move round/appear in their own paste. Mental construct is capable of denying that and saying I am the chooser. But we know there isn’t anyone to choose here. No cause and effect…All thoughts are independent packages…if people understand that as division they don’t understand that thoughts are still in flow. And any division is done only by mental constructs.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?

I ain't a fortune teller :) No way to predict thought flow.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

I don’t know what will be next, how to know which position will appear.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. Thoughts live their own life B)

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

Doesn’t last really long…I’ve been playing and looking into that quite a decent time…there might be a short gap and puff here come next thought.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

There isn’t cause and effect. Things just are. And it is the same with thoughts. ‘We’ could say ‘we can’ look at life from different ‘perspectives’. And one of those illusory everyday Joe perspectives explains that thoughts are running in some organized sequence and not just that, that I am thinking and that thoughts and results of thinking are mine. Spiritual schools go a step further and acknowledge that those thoughts aren’t yours, that there is false you but still most of the knowledge is in relationship subject to object. And they try to teach (business) people how to control their thoughts. And no one is successful in it for the rest of their life. Main reason is they don’t do the practice of controlling thoughts well enough, the right way, not enough time…more, more, more of the same running round the circle and life passes by.
Thoughts are flowing. Mostly flow round senses/experiences, but also totally out of the map.
Thoughts. What else to say.

Are thoughts 100% true?

You wish. :)
Some thoughts in communication are status-quo words…so we understand this is chair, car, banana…(labels). Mostly thoughts are one big mess. No sort so ever connected with DE reality…label on top of label…muddy water.
You can see that, this process is giving me sight to see that too. Although there isn’t anyone to observe that here.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

THIS. Would be shortest.
And this THIS is life, with DE looking are experience/senses+thoughts in the mix.
It’s not what I am, As there isn’t me/myself/I here nor you/her/him/them/… especially not dividing myself from what is this what it is.
It’s more This is what AM.
Or if I quote your quote on the bottom of your posts:
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti



that's just GR8
indi


PS: don't have anything against any teacher or teaching. I just notice if those people would be employed in companies they would soon become unemployed because of not good results :)
And also it isn't anything wrong with the world it's just everything as should be based on in what state civilization is, that is the results out there. So results are as they could be based on in what states we are. So no problems at all.

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

More you look, the more you see that senses/experience are omnipresent and that there is internal division of that external what it is.

Where exactly are “internal” and the “external”?

I look at these phenomena, thoughts are just appearing.
I have the same feeling that mental constructs make us feel that that’s our thoughts, which we are thinking, that we are picking up topic of thoughts. Mental constructs make the whole thing as there is cause and reason.

OK… To whom are thoughts appearing and confusing? Yes, cause and effect are an illusion, but what perceives the illusion? Just look, what is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are?
Is anything separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality? What is it that could be awake? What is it that awakening could happen TO? Is there someone separate form life, waiting to wake up to reality?
Is there someone who needs to let go of conceptualization? OR letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?

Can thoughts do anything (e.g. deceive, lie, confuse) but describe (correctly or not) what is happening?

Thoughts are flowing. Mostly flow round senses/experiences, but also totally out of the map.
Thoughts. What else to say.

I really like what you said. Great observation!

THIS. Would be shortest.

Yes indeed! :)

Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.

Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Hi Rali

Where exactly are “internal” and the “external”?

No where no borders. Part of the same this.

To whom are thoughts appearing and confusing?

To no one. Thought about thoughts.

Yes, cause and effect are an illusion, but what perceives the illusion?

No one.
Just thoughts happening (thinking)

Just look, what is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are?

Thoughts & Thinking makes division.

Is anything separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality?

Reality just is. No one to perceive it. So no one to separate and isolate or understand it too.

What is it that could be awake? What is it that awakening could happen TO?

Nothing can be awake. There is no one to happen to.

Is there someone separate form life, waiting to wake up to reality?

No

Is there someone who needs to let go of conceptualization? OR letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?

No one to let go of it. It can happen on its own. Yes there isn’t anything to understand by anyone.

Can thoughts do anything (e.g. deceive, lie, confuse) but describe (correctly or not) what is happening?

Thoughts are flowing. They can be whatever as present, past or in future but they are just thoughts and they can’t do anything except flowing as thinking. And time is a concept too. (thoughts)

Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions.
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?

It is happening. Don’t know how.

Does a thought control it?

Perhaps trigger it. Just intention that might or not happen.

Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?

No one to locate.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

In some cases senses/experience pull the movement of body parts. Dog barking and that sound pull attention/or triggers head to turn round.
Thought can’t turn head round. There can also be no movement of the head and just another thought appears that is opposite saying don’t turn head. But then again the head can turn round anyway. Can’t find a decision point.


2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

Seeing & thinking was happening. And qualities appearing
Yes, respective qualities appear, no choosing at all.

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They pop up while the experience of senses is going on.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

The sequence happened. Two activities that just appear in that order. No one to influence or controlling them/choosing.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

Curiosity arises (thought) to pick up the sour juice first…which are thoughts/labels. And then picking up happens. It could happen differently with the same thought but different picking up or no picking up at all could happen.

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

This here likes electronic music sounds. Likes idea of playing with tracks and mixing it. This has been present for 3 decades now. There were times when life made a situation of running booking management and pr management for a marvelous club. Then this was gone. Crazy series of happenings occur. After it somehow the favor of electronic music persists. Few years later there were no events that gave opportunities for DJing publicly…so organizing new events started to happen. No big success in it, so after 6 years thoughts came to stop it happening. Radio Show continues and also DJ mixing. And decade goes round. Then it seems that this part will stop happening last November. But somehow an one event triggered that new track collection was downloaded again and with a different paste of happening DJing is going on. At home streaming.
Then thoughts came again for public performance and also frustration occurred as the whole business changed even more drastically. There aren’t clubs, booking interest, no will for new relationships, not really knowing how events and programs are managed those that are still going on. There could be done as it seems things happen in live cases and should give collaborations as result but it just doesn’t happen to be what is here. Just noticing what is happening that does not happen and it’s pathetic. Not supporting, it’s so strange and fake, just ass licking everywhere. It’s silly to have the idea/concept of doing anything…when you see that there isn’t any you, and that life is happening it’s flowing. But still what to do, no one to do it?
So here is DE…to look and flowing perception might happen…
So for the last three years while the bhakti process was happening only radio shows continued. Bhakti is disappearing after a trip to India experience, all kinds of experience reveals, realizations, reading out of the bhakti frame books…Just course of happenings that were going and are here at the moment, writing this post and happening DE. So DJing once again almost stops. Even that part which was an interesting experience, listening and mixing of tracks – happening 'doing' DJ sets.
There is still this thinking happening to playing electronic music for others. But thought also happens that is this frustration (not able to find location or interest on market just for playing this sound that is going on here) is actually expectation that ruins the part that is happen to be still interesting here– mixing tracks together, listening of particular tracks that are picked out from many that aren’t use.
So this is the last pillar of doing something that ‘I’ like if I skip man’s nature calling for intimacy toward the opposite gender. I look, am I really doing it? :)
So the biggest decision is that I stop expecting things to happen in my favor as public performance, because none of it is happening. I understand that it might happen or not at the end of the day. "But I keep looking for the ways to find that place or places where I could play my sound, I love and I enjoy it." I know who...if there is no one that is doing it that?
While looking at all that…who is strongly holding to this concept? No one…so why doesn't it just fall off, who/what is holding it? As there is no me I can’t do anything about it. So all these thoughts and these writings just are. This is what it is here going on. It's a part of THIS.

How did it come to be?

Event’s happened. One event follows another event. For no particular reason.

Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

Outcome is what it is. Speculation that something would be different is empty talk.
What it is, is just showing how things go its own way. That was the flow of events. Not related among sequences (even that appear like cause/effect when you wrongly identify yourself with me/I) but just in flow.

How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

None is in my control. Never was. Things are happening. And they are happening also now. ‘I’ don’t have the slightest idea where life will go on. It’s not my life as there isn’t me in it. But…but this feeling is so damn persistent that life happens to happen to me. These thoughts and thinking about it. Although while looking at what is happening on this matter it is so obvious what it is. No entity me/self/I that is present in it doing anything.

Otherwise according to thought I was in control of decision making. Decision is just a thought (label) describing what is happening/going to happen. A or B at the end of one event happened. With or without labeling. Also if none of A or B happened that none is still happening.


Greatings, indi

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

In some cases senses/experience pull the movement of body parts. Dog barking and that sound pull attention/or triggers head to turn round.
Thought can’t turn head round. There can also be no movement of the head and just another thought appears that is opposite saying don’t turn head. But then again the head can turn round anyway. Can’t find a decision point.

This report is a mixture of DE report and storytelling :)
Again, what is “body parts” moving in DE? You would agree that is sensations, right? What is “dog barking”? Just sound right? “Head turning” is label for sensations and maybe colours ?
You said earlier that cause and effect are an illusion. So how is it observed then that “senses/experience pull the movement of body parts”?

Does a thought control it?

Perhaps trigger it. Just intention that might or not happen.

What is “intention” and how is it different from general thoughts? How does thought trigger sensations when they can’t do anything but describe what is happening (give meaning to what is happening)? Can sensations understand thought content and do stuff accordingly? Again what defines where one sensation end and another start without thought content? Are there different sensations or just feeling "taking different values"?

Talking about cause and effect, here is a video that reveals a different cause and effect:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

Otherwise according to thought I was in control of decision making. Decision is just a thought (label) describing what is happening/going to happen. A or B at the end of one event happened. With or without labeling. Also if none of A or B happened that none is still happening.

I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language. What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect really exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Hi Rali
This report is a mixture of DE report and storytelling :)

Again, what is “body parts” moving in DE? You would agree that is sensations, right? What is “dog barking”? Just sound right? “Head turning” is label for sensations and maybe colours ?

It’s obvious. It’s just the way of answering that appears. It seems I am getting there to understand sensations about the body (label). Now it’s clearer. Perhaps you mentioned this previous in your conversation, but it just didn’t stick here.

I am thinking about it. About the whole way of answering, looking thing. There isn’t jet answering the way you prefer. You know I never ask and have debates about any of those questions in my life. Not even in my native language. So it’s quite a hard process going on here on this side. Even if it doesn't seem like that to you. I don’t have the vocabulary for making any of those answers/sentences. Those programs/knowledge/words/thoughts just don’t appear. I feel like a blank paper sheet. I look and I ask what am I looking for. Most of the time I can’t see what I am supposed to see. There isn’t anything to see then. I try harder to see like a hawk. And some things or topics occur to me. Others don’t. Then I ask how I should look? I don’t know how to look different or deeper. It’s easier when you manage once or if you have tips on it. It’s like when there is no knowing it’s hard to have a question about that. That 'that' is not known. Once you have some knowledge, questions are there. No problem to ask or to understand.

And that 'known' I understand it is crucial to realize by myself so it’s my experience not just understanding. But this here sometimes just doesn’t get it. Can’t see it. It can be so obvious in front of the nose, but for a blind man it’s not there, for someone that doesn’t know a thing about it, it also doesn’t exist. It might be there but can't be put in words. (yes I am constantly asking myself, who is the knower, where is that knowledge coming from, who is getting knowledge, why doesn’t that knowledge (thoughts/thinking) start to pops out in right way in the way things are, As there isn’t me how is that not changing, what persist it unchanged)

So to me it’s quite hard looking stripped down off everything. And all that creates tension/reaction on this side. As I can’t deliver what you would like or the way you would like to get it and just can’t break through. This is building up over the last week or so here. Tired that can’t move on or through the ‘gateless gate’ or whatever label is called. And being anchored becomes boring. Here and there, making a few steps on and again we change topics, or turn round questions and I am a few steps back and dull again for a new look.
Perhaps you expect that I would see all that is going on just with 5 senses by DE thinking. If you said so I would perhaps understand that. Yes it needs to be repeated a few times before it sinks in. But all that is mere speculation on my side.
Also I notice we can come to certain topics or questions and I can’t describe the difference among two things. Or don’t have an answer. Perhaps I know what something is not, but still can’t put the answer together to know what it is.
And I know that what you do here is a great thing. It’s great to me. I know that you must be patient too with all kinds of us in all kinds of states. And I am thankful. Even though I know that there isn’t any I/me here and you there too.


I keep using this way of conversation. I can’t do it another way, mostly I don't know how to express just speaking with 5 senses view (not jet) thought vocabulary. It would take too much time and energy to try to write down those thoughts/thinking for answers. You are someone that is doing that for quite some time. It's a piece of cake for you. In my seeing you are there and to you everything is so obvious. You are advanced. I am in the beginner stage. Advanced one should understand beginner and only the advanced one could come closer to the beginner as beginner can’t rise on the level until several steps are done. I know you are doing a good job there. And I struggle here as I am stuck not seeing through.

Then there is this word ‘I’ that I constantly use. I don’t know whether I should or not use it. Or you want me to avoid it. I use it for the sake of conversation. Whatever I would try to write without I would be just trying out talking in the way that is not here jet. It would be just a mere attempt to answer. And out of it even more misunderstanding will come out. I understand that there is no I. I experience through this process there is not I. Habit is an iron shirt we say in Slovene language. It’s not easy to redeem it.
And how then to speak in everyday life? Just some of the questions that pop up. And I understand I am not here for debating.
And all this off topic isn’t rebellion, just something that is on my back. And I hope it will help me to go on while you are just informed about it.

You said earlier that cause and effect are an illusion. So how is it observed then that “senses/experience pull the movement of body parts”?

Perhaps this is wrongly understanding my sentence as I am not profound in explaining those topics nor in my own language nor in English. And the result is this what it is. Mess appearing :)
As you said above, movement of the body is a sensation. No place for cause & effect. As body movement (object) = sensation in DE. Nothing to talk about.

As I understand sensation is the experience of the feeling. It just doesn’t occur to me what different type (label) of body sensations exist. Or to put some experience under some type of senses. Hearing is easy with sound. I am learning it on the fly. Learning to understand it right.

What is “intention” and how is it different from general thoughts?

It’s just another thought that is labeled in that manner. no difference

How does thought trigger sensations when they can’t do anything but describe what is happening (give meaning to what is happening)?

They can’t. They are just describing.

Can sensations understand thought content and do stuff accordingly?

No, no connection between two that would provide that.

Again what defines where one sensation ends and another starts without thought content?

Its flow no borders…only thought can describe a sort of separate sensations, make division.

Are there different sensations or just feeling "taking different values"?

It's a feeling taking different values.

Thanx for the video. I read about it in some books about how that is happening but it just slips away.
Slips away to whom? To no one. Then why doesn't it occur when it is in need? It just doesn’t. Thoughts runs their own show. So what to do about it? Nothing. No one to do anything.


What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”.

So, what makes the sensations to appear?

I can't find anything. So nothing.

What makes seeing to appear?

LOOK!
Nothing. It is.

Is there anything that causes anything to appear?

No

Do cause and effect really exist outside of thought content?

They don’t. Senses & thought…experiences exists…and all those words are labels again. And the word label is the label itself.

Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening.

Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

Things are happening. Whether they are described/explained/labeled or not.



Many people know me as a persistent character. Sometimes brutally persistent. I am wondering what that persistence is? It’s just something that is happening without any particular reason. It could be thoughts appearing, thinking happening and that continuum is labeled persistence. Or can be for example sensation happening, repairing HDMI cable…while most of the persistence in others would stop, this persistence here continued…and in many happenings result is that something is done. In the case of the HDMI cable all the small pins and metal framing manage to fit back together through very tiny holes…and HDMI cable starts to function again. But in between I look at several spots in several boxes if I have another cable. As I was sure that I have a spare one. But I couldn't find it and for the third time I returned to repairing an old cable. Trying and trying, cutting the rubber away and then finally pins fit back into the holes after many tries and sorting out small metal pins to be straight and whole holes casing into the metal framing. In between I thought about what happened to the spare HDMI I had and couldn’t find it. Then I remembered I gave it away with an old LCD TV to my friend a month ago so he could watch the laptop over TV.

So persistence is here to continue…
All the best, indi

PS: BTW
Pointing out questions is a method to DE.
I always read your post first from start to the end.
With a series of pointing out questions, each next question of yours is leading closer toward an answer.
So I could just shell out an answer and write it down, but I don’t.
Figuring out and knowing the answer doesn’t mean anything to me. I am trying to work out my own experience.
So it’s really hard to point out something without revealing it too much and that this will be still experienced before understanding by reader.