<no subject>

[Totege]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There might be a filter between how between the sensate reality and my moment to moment experience. Somehow this has to do with some illusion about the self and how it's adding some layer to my perception, obscuring the real moment to moment sensations.

What are you looking for at LU?
Inspiration and perspective in the form of many archived threads.

Technique, guidance and motivation from the guided conversation. First hand experience is invaluable and the fact that strangers on the internet are willing to do this for some other stranger is quite heartwarming. I am looking forward to interact with a guide and practice the techniques, ponder the questions and make an effort to try and take or give what will be given or asked for.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance by interacting with someone who has been through the process and possess first hand experience and realizations.

My hope is that with this help and guidance I'll be able to directly experience no-self.
I'm grateful for the opportunity and ready to do the practice

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
It started maybe one year ago, when I started meditating and doing grounding practices such as some breath work and stretching.

I had some experiences/sensations/perception shift that challenged my held beliefs. I started exploring this unknown territory, both in practice but also with intellectual knowledge seeking.

Joined a class of Tai Chi, started doing some gentle sitted session observing my mind and body or trying to relax or concentrate, but this left me with more questions than answer.

So here I am, maintaining these practices, with a quite hands off attitude, letting things happen on their own.

I have a very different day to day experience from this one year ago. Some evolution is expected I guess, even without any specific exercise. but all these practices made me more sensitive to sensations, thoughts and emotions. There's more of everything, even inside the body now, in my head, spine hands. Strange sensations

I have no idea where this is leading, but concerning this post and answers, I can say for sure that both my practice and intellectual inquiry gave me a strong sense that something is fundamentally misunderstood in my day to day, moment to moment experience. Sometimes when I am very "calm" inside, I can take some distance with the mind and sensations, get a sense of this no-self thing. Watch as things happens unprompted. But most of the time I can't. And most of what I get I only get intellectually.

Maybe here I'll find the techniques and guidance to be able to just experience pure senses, currently hidden under a big pile of conditionings and false belief ?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi Totege
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Totege]

Pleasure to meet you Rali,
Is that how you want me to call you ?

I am happy and grateful to have you as a guide.
I'll do my best to follow all the guidelines, especially the important part as I understand It : not relying on imagination, thoughts or memory but direct observations.

Daily interactions are fine with me, consistent efforts will help maintain and deepen any practice or endeavour.

is that what you want me to call you?

You can call me Totege, or Tom. Either are fine for me.

What time zone are in?

I am in GMT+1. So it's currently 10:30 am here as I am writing this. I think I'm ok with everything so far, we can start as soon as you want.

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

Is that how you want me to call you ?

Rali is fine :)

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I am in GMT+1. So it's currently 10:30 am here as I am writing this.

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

I think I'm ok with everything so far, we can start as soon as you want.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Totege]

Good evening,

I'll do my best to answer, please let me know if the angle with which I'm answering is not the desired one.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

This is a strange question, I can't really answer because I don't think I've realized it yet, so I can't know what will be different ? I can form hypothesis but this would mean nothing.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Once again, very hard for me to formulate an answer, I expect that this will somehow change my perception of raw sensations ? Maybe my perspective on those and the way I identify with it ? Once again I don't have any expectations, I feel there's something there, something real. That maybe I got a glimpse of due to the clarity that sometimes arise when I meditate. I guess it's quite fair to say that I expect some sort of realization or insights. Maybe something akin to experiential knowledge born of the inquiry and practices ?

3. What do you want not to happen?

That's not the way I think. If anything happen it'll likely be too late to want it not to happen. There's no point in worrying about what might happen or not, I'll deal with it as it comes if it come.

4. What are you hoping for?

No idea, to be honest I'm not hoping for anything. I am giving this a try, without very specific expectations, hope or fear. None of these are driving this.

5. What is missing

From my understanding I would say that I am curious, I believe that its possible to realize and that there is something behind the "no-self" you talk about.
And I'm curious about it, I want to understand by experiencing, direct interactions with someone who possess experiential knowledge is very precious, unfathomably so.


I did my best to answer quite honestly. I'm not used to write this long in English so I might be a bit rusty, it'll get better with time.

Best,
Tom

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Totege]

Good evening Rali,

Thanks you for your answer.

When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult [...] Is that OK with you?

I find this bit about expectations interesting, and while I understand that expectations are limiting because we have the tendency to overlook anything outside of their scope, I still have a hard time labeling them as outright hindrances. what is the right attitude then if not a healthy dose of expectations in line with reality ?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

This is an exercise I experienced with a bit before. And to be honest it's quite unsettling. Life is living itself quite ok when I give up any sense of agency be it mental or physical. It's quite disturbing because I feel like I'm an automaton. As if free will was just an illusion due to limited view. and if I could zoom out enough I'd see that everything I do isn't really a choice. It's all a question of perspective, relatively to my scale I feel like I am but when I start zooming out I'm not doing anything.
Thoughts are coming wether I like it or not. Same for body sensations, feeling, any perceptions of the senses. I look and I don't see a me.
It's mostly intellectually that I understand that because when I just stop labelling my experience and stay quite still just focusing on what is arising in my senses I get very peaceful and it becomes very pleasant, the most pleasant thing in the world. Might sound strange but this is really a peculiar pure feeling.
I always come to some kind of dichotomy on one side there is this state of just experiencing and not labelling anything, "I" am very less in the sense that there is no labelling, and to be honest when I just pause and observe thoughts feelings and body I don't have the words to describe it, it's not possible to just sum it by labelling.
But there's also the intellectual mind trying to understand and inquiring, trying to find something explaining the sense of not existing, it is a very strange exercise because I am unable to grasp onto anything with this method it's just finding nothing and nothing. I cant find a self so I'm either going down wondering what then, why and about the implications of this.
This is just exacerbating the things I've been slowly starting to unearth these last months.
And to be honest I don't feel qualified to talk about it because the ramifications are quite extremes.
I hesitated to talk about it today because it's only one day, but I've been doing that for a few days prior to that and what I wrote above is just the culmination of my raw thoughts on the subject. Of course I could write something more structured but I think you'd lose some of the pristine feeling first draft often convey.

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

I find this bit about expectations interesting, and while I understand that expectations are limiting because we have the tendency to overlook anything outside of their scope, I still have a hard time labelling them as outright hindrances. what is the right attitude then if not a healthy dose of expectations in line with reality?

In my guiding experience, having a “beginner’s mind” helps the most. Expectations are like a script how it is supposed to go and what is supposed to happen/felt when you reach “the goal”, but this script is not necessarily correct. Thus, it will be best if you let go of all expectations and approach this as “unknown territory”. Is this OK?

Of course I could write something more structured but I think you'd lose some of the pristine feeling first draft often convey.

This is perfect – reporting things as they show, not premeditating your answers. Thank you for your honest answer! It gives me an idea where to begin. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

So there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Totege]

Good evening Rali,

I'm sorry I didn't write back yesterday. It was a busy day. I read your post, tried to apply what you said about directly experiencing things with the senses only. Only seeing etc.

It's hard. I always default to labelling what I see. I look at a tree and I see a "tree".

But it's been interesting and this is something I'm doing when I have a moment of calm in-between moments of life. It's centering in a sense

Thus, it will be best if you let go of all expectations and approach this as “unknown territory”. Is this OK?

Yes it's ok for me. I'll do my best to let go of the analytic mind and just seeing, hearing, tasting etc.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

I agree on that yes.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Concerning that part, it's what I'm trying to say when I say labelling. Whenever I pay attention I only notice how I'm labelling, very often I label fast then my mind do not focus anymore on the thing. I don't know apple or whatever it's supposed to refer to. Only the concept and the mechanism to label things.

I don't know if it makes sense. I'm going to continue on this and maybe come back with more tomorrow.

Have a good day,
Best
Tom

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

Concerning that part, it's what I'm trying to say when I say labelling. Whenever I pay attention I only notice how I'm labelling, very often I label fast then my mind do not focus anymore on the thing. I don't know apple or whatever it's supposed to refer to. Only the concept and the mechanism to label things.

So you don’t’ see the colour (red or green, or yellow, or a combination of these) of the “apple”, or when you eat a real (not picture) “apple”, you don’t have a taste (the sweetness, the juiciness, the sourness mixed with the sweetness), or smell (fruity), or sensations (when touching it – smooth, wet, warm or cold)?
I think you are overcomplicating things. DE is simple. It’s what you experience apart from the labelling – the raw experience. Labelling will not stop – it might change but it won’t stop (perceptions). So labelling is there , but what else is there? LOOK!

Love
Rali

[Totege]

Good evening,

So you don’t’ see the colour (red or green, or yellow, or a combination of these) of the “apple”, or when you eat a real (not picture) “apple”, you don’t have a taste (the sweetness, the juiciness, the sourness mixed with the sweetness), or smell (fruity), or sensations (when touching it – smooth, wet, warm or cold)?

I think I lacked a bit of clarity in my explanation. I do indeed feel all these things quite in depth and fully. Word never do a service to raw sensations. What I mean about labels is that I have trouble just sensing without labelling. That's what was bothering me a bit.

So whenever I pay attention to anything there is a great richness of Sensations or perceptions. But always shortly after accompanied by some labelling.

So labelling is there , but what else is there?

I don't know if these réflexions about labelling matters in our context but anyway. I'm still trying to pay attention but beside the perception of the sense and the reflexive labelling/ potential reflexive thoughts arising linked to this perception I don't see what I'm supposed to see ? I'll look longer and harder. I feel like you are trying to convey something, point to something specific, I might be missing something obvious, something that is there, or maybe the fact that there is nothing beside the trifecta : sensation, awareness and reflexive thoughts(on many levels, sublet such as non verbal labeling etc.)?

I'll look, and try looking better, thanks for the time you spend trying to point me towards something.

Best.
Tom



Best,
Tom

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

What I mean about labels is that I have trouble just sensing without labelling. That's what was bothering me a bit.

So whenever I pay attention to anything there is a great richness of Sensations or perceptions. But always shortly after accompanied by some labelling.

That is absolutely normal! We are not looking for special states (with no labelling or extra colours, etc.). We are looking at normal everyday stuff – observing what is here, how it is labelled/perceptions (correctly or not), what the labels say it is here but it is not.

I might be missing something obvious, something that is there, or maybe the fact that there is nothing beside the trifecta : sensation, awareness and reflexive thoughts(on many levels, sublet such as non verbal labeling etc.)?

You are actually not missing anything, you are adding stuff :))
First, I want to make clear that the label “sensation” here is used as in just feeling, not as the product of the senses (look at the definition of DE in the previous post). For the rest of the senses we have colour (seeing), taste (tasting), smell (smelling), sound (hearing) and thought (thinking), which together with sensation (feeling) form direct experience (DE). Language (concepts) is agreed upon meaning that we assign to experience (as we saw with “apple”), so it’s important to agree upon the meaning of the labels that we are using here (the DE labels).
Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the example above. Please write a few examples from your daily life written in the same format.
Please practice this before moving to the questions below!
So, back to your "trifecta : sensation, awareness and reflexive thoughts"... First of all thinking is part of DE (the arising of thought not its content) as it cannot be separated from the sensory information as you reported. But now you are adding to experiencing “awareness”. Can you please describe it with the 5 senses (the cup of coffee example)? How exactly is it separate from experiencing? Are there awareness, experiencing, experienced? Is awareness some kind of lonely witness, a container for experiences, or any entity of a kind? LOOK! Describe how it is experienced in DE! Is awareness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction?
Let’s examine this through seeing (one of the senses). In the seeing is there anything else but what is seen? Look at your screen right now. Is it outside of seeing somehow? Are seeing the screen (colour) and the screen (colour) two separate things? At which point the seeing becomes the colour (the screen)? Is there a seer? At which point seeing becomes the seer? Where are the outlines that differentiate the seer from seeing, and the colour (the seen) from seeing? Trace "back" seeing - where is seeing coming from? Is seeing the seen coming from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Could you show from where you are looking at the screen, and what is there? Is there a "you" or "awareness" in that direction? What do you see?
And back to awareness ... Are there awareness, being aware and aware-ed (object)? Is there anything else in being aware other than the "what is being aware of"? Is there awareness that is being aware? Also is there a difference between being aware and seeing (the verb) for example (without the lablelling)? LOOK the same way as you are looking at your socks and describe what is there in the raw (direct) experience!

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

What I mean about labels is that I have trouble just sensing without labelling. That's what was bothering me a bit.

So whenever I pay attention to anything there is a great richness of Sensations or perceptions. But always shortly after accompanied by some labelling.

That is absolutely normal! We are not looking for special states (with no labelling or extra colours, etc.). We are looking at normal everyday stuff – observing what is here, how it is labelled/perceptions (correctly or not), what the labels say it is here but it is not.

I might be missing something obvious, something that is there, or maybe the fact that there is nothing beside the trifecta : sensation, awareness and reflexive thoughts(on many levels, sublet such as non verbal labeling etc.)?

You are actually not missing anything, you are adding stuff :))
First, I want to make clear that the label “sensation” here is used as in just feeling, not as the product of the senses (look at the definition of DE in the previous post). For the rest of the senses we have colour (seeing), taste (tasting), smell (smelling), sound (hearing) and thought (thinking), which together with sensation (feeling) form direct experience (DE). Language (concepts) is agreed upon meaning that we assign to experience (as we saw with “apple”), so it’s important to agree upon the meaning of the labels that we are using here (the DE labels).
Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the example above. Please write a few examples from your daily life written in the same format.
Please practice this before moving to the questions below!
So, back to your "trifecta : sensation, awareness and reflexive thoughts"... First of all thinking is part of DE (the arising of thought not its content) as it cannot be separated from the sensory information as you reported. But now you are adding to experiencing “awareness”. Can you please describe it with the 5 senses (the cup of coffee example)? How exactly is it separate from experiencing? Are there awareness, experiencing, experienced? Is awareness some kind of lonely witness, a container for experiences, or any entity of a kind? LOOK! Describe how it is experienced in DE! Is awareness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction?
Let’s examine this through seeing (one of the senses). In the seeing is there anything else but what is seen? Look at your screen right now. Is it outside of seeing somehow? Are seeing the screen (colour) and the screen (colour) two separate things? At which point the seeing becomes the colour (the screen)? Is there a seer? At which point seeing becomes the seer? Where are the outlines that differentiate the seer from seeing, and the colour (the seen) from seeing? Trace "back" seeing - where is seeing coming from? Is seeing the seen coming from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Could you show from where you are looking at the screen, and what is there? Is there a "you" or "awareness" in that direction? What do you see?
And back to awareness ... Are there awareness, being aware and aware-ed (object)? Is there anything else in being aware other than the "what is being aware of"? Is there awareness that is being aware? Also is there a difference between being aware and seeing (the verb) for example (without the lablelling)? LOOK the same way as you are looking at your socks and describe what is there in the raw (direct) experience!

Love
Rali

[Totege]

Hello,

Thanks you for the clarifying bit about experience and it's constituents. I'm going to practice this :

Code: Select all

Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing) Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling) Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling) Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting) Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing) Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

And ponder on what you told me, after some time I'll come back to your answer and read the rest.

I stopped reading at :

Please practice this before moving to the questions below!

.

I'll be back with another post every day, but I think going forward it might sometimes be short, except for when I make some progress or have any questions, is that's ok with you ?

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom
I meant this

Please practice this before moving to the questions below!

as in do it for a a couple of hours and then reply to the rest of the questions all in one reply.

I'll be back with another post every day, but I think going forward it might sometimes be short, except for when I make some progress or have any questions, is that's ok with you ?

You can give me just one example with the rest of the answers just to show me that you are doing it and keep the momemntum of looking going. That is just to master looking. Answering the questions (pointing) from me are a necessity with each answer, as this is where the real inquiry is happening, for which looking is needed. Is that clear?

Love
R