What's with this "I"

[Alexandr]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I mean by this is that "I" is nothing more than a fiction that our minds have established. I am the designation of a state of consciousness that requires identification and belonging to something, although in fact it does not need it. I am a thought that arises as a defensive reaction.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for like-minded people, people who have freed themselves from an imaginary self. People who will help me free myself, guide me and dispel my misconceptions. I'm looking for like-minded people and support.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I feel like I'm close to understanding myself, but I need to make sure of it. I expect help with self-awareness. I need someone to accompany me, who will show me that I have understood everything correctly, and help me get rid of the imaginary "me

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have no experience of spiritual practices

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Alexandr!! Is this how you wish to be addressed?

Welcome! My name is Janine. I’d be happy to guide.

As I read your post I was struck by

I need someone to accompany me, who will show me that I have understood everything correctly, and help me get rid of the imaginary "me

If you are ready to begin, consider that this LU process is about Direct Experience, what is presently seen, heard, sensed tactilely, tasted, smelled, or thought (without excess narrative). We are not concerned so much with concepts or conclusions, which may be helpful, until they are not. Throughout the investigation, I will be offering questions, typed in blue. Please respond to every question. You can use the quote function to “capture” the question (or anything else that prompts your reply) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s), and then post your response.


Before I continue, I invite you to consider the following:
Can I post daily? This keeps momentum. If you cannot post, or need more time, kindly post that! And I’ll do the same.
Can I set aside all other “spiritual” related resources - books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. Here, we will be LOOKING DIRECTLY at what presents. Preconceived ideas and concepts, even the seemingly helpful ones quickly act as ropes that bind, weaving a web of complexity. SEEING is simple. Let’s stick to that!
Can I be COMPLETELY authentic and transparent? Censoring what we SEE when LOOKING DIRECTLY at what presents, in the form of narratives, piling thought upon thought over the simplicity of what is greatly distracts. Please report simply and directly from experience in the moment.


Also, please review the following links.
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditionshttp://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

It is highly recommended to copy and paste your posts from a separate Word document, lest your work disappear into the abyss due to a system glitch!

If you feel well with the suggestions and the content of the links, and wish to continue, I have a question for you!!

Cheers!
Janine

[Alexandr]

Hi, Janine. Thank you for agreeing to help me. So, here are the answers to the questions you asked me.

Can I post daily?

Yes, I think I can, I work at the computer every day.

Can I set aside all other “spiritual” related resources

Definitely "yes", I do not study any resources related to spirituality at all.

Can I be COMPLETELY authentic and transparent?

Lately I've been trying to notice it in myself. I think that everything that surrounds us and what happens happens by itself, and we cannot influence it. But sometimes the feeling of it disappears.

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Alexandr!

My pleasure!

Can I be COMPLETELY authentic and transparent?

Lately I've been trying to notice it in myself. I think that everything that surrounds us and what happens happens by itself, and we cannot influence it. But sometimes the feeling of it disappears.

Is it possible for Reality to play “hide and seek?” This does not require an answer, only a willingness to write from your Direct Experience, without adulteration. Clear?

I feel like I'm close to understanding myself, but I need to make sure of it. I expect help with self-awareness. I need someone to accompany me, who will show me that I have understood everything correctly, and help me get rid of the imaginary "me.”

Please take each question, one at a time. Close your eyes and feel into the question. Then reply from Stillness.

Why do you wish to “get rid of the imaginary me?”

In other words, what do you expect to feel once you see past the illusion of a separate self?

How would life be different without a “me” running the show?

Would anything be added to or subtracted from the Direct Experience of Now?

If you had to choose between understanding and liberation, which would you choose?

Cheers!
Janine

[Alexandr]

Hello Janine!
I apologize in advance, because English is not my native language, and I am resorting to the help of an interpreter, and perhaps I somehow misinterpreted some question.
So, here are the answers to the questions you sent me.

Why do you wish to “get rid of the imaginary me?”

I think it's to worry less. So that the thoughts that arise in my head do not affect my life.

In other words, what do you expect to feel once you see past the illusion of a separate self?

I expect to feel freedom, and not be a hostage of my thoughts. To learn not to be distracted by the thoughts that arise in my mind in the context of "I".

How would life be different without a “me” running the show?

I don't think it will change radically. It will just make it easier for me to live with the realization that I am nothing more than a thought that arises in my mind.

Would anything be added to or subtracted from the Direct Experience of Now?

I think it's self-sufficient on its own, and it's impossible to add or subtract anything. But, I think that based on the experience of the present, I would like to get rid of the anger that arises when the imaginary "I" is angry. In other words, it will just get rid of what is not some external factor, but what is in my thoughts.

If you had to choose between understanding and liberation, which would you choose?

I think I would choose liberation, although I don't know if it's possible. I still understand that a lot of my life depends on an imaginary "me". The "I" ignites with the same anger when I get angry, and goes away when I start to think that it's nothing more than a thought, but I don't always manage to come to terms with the fact that these are just unpleasant thoughts, although I understand it.

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Alexandr!!

No worries about your English! You’re doing great!

It will just make it easier for me to live with the realization that I am nothing more than a thought that arises in my mind.

If you are nothing more than a thought arising in mind, what is left when the thought recedes?
What is there prior to the thought?
What is there during the thought?

I would like to get rid of the anger that arises when the imaginary "I" is angry.

Push/pull. Want this. Don’t want that. What is this mechanism that refuses to allow everything to be simply and exactly as it is? Close your eyes and feel into “I would like to get rid of anger.” Describe the felt sense of the demand in the body.
Now imagine the flow of a thunderstorm. Gentle rumbling. Darkening sky. Energy gathering. Momentum rising. Then, startling crashes of sound, bright flashes of light. Pouring rain... The rain softens. Gentle tapping. Darkness gives way to brightening sky. Thunder, a dull and distant rumble. Patches of blue appear. Sunlight glistens upon the landscape.
Do you like thunderstorms?
Is there a “best part” of the storm?
Is a thunderstorm a “problem,” something “gone wrong,” a “should not be?”

In other words, it will just get rid of what is not some external factor, but what is in my thoughts.

What is the difference between an “internal” and “external” experience? Feel into the words “internal” and “external.” Close your eyes. Tune into a sound.
LOOK. Is the sound “out there” and apart from you?
Do you see any dividing line between yourself and the sound?
Can you describe the sound without labeling the source?
Without the need for a label, can you touch the depth of the sound?
When you do this, is this an “internal” or “external” experience?

I still understand that a lot of my life depends on an imaginary "me". The "I" ignites with the same anger when I get angry, and goes away when I start to think that it's nothing more than a thought, but I don't always manage to come to terms with the fact that these are just unpleasant thoughts, although I understand it.

Who chooses? LOOK. Is there a choice in anger arising?
A choice in a sense of “I” entangling with anger?
A choice in starting to think “It’s nothing more than a thought”?
Who manages and reconciles and “comes to terms?” LOOK to see if you can find this chooser. Please tell me what you find.

Love and good cheer!
Janine

[Alexandr]

Hi Janine, I've been thinking about your questions, and here's what I've got.

If you are nothing more than a thought arising in mind, what is left when the thought recedes?
After the thought disappears, everything will remain the same. And if I think in the context of me, then my body and mind will remain.

What is there prior to the thought?
Sometimes some kind of external situation, and sometimes thoughts themselves are born in the head, so to speak, out of nowhere.

What is there during the thought?
I find it difficult to answer this question, but I will try to assume that this is how consciousness reacts to an experience that is happening at the moment or happened in the past.

Do you like thunderstorms?
I probably don't like the storm itself, it's too loud and windy.
Is there a “best part” of the storm?
I think the thunderstorm itself is beautiful by nature, with numerous thunderbolts and its power.
And even after a thunderstorm, the air is fresh and discharged.
Is a thunderstorm a “problem,” something “gone wrong,” a “should not be?”
I think not, the storm arises on its own and also ends on its own.

What is the difference between an “internal” and “external” experience? Feel into the words “internal” and “external.” Close your eyes. Tune into a sound.
LOOK.

Is the sound “out there” and apart from you?
Yes, it seems that the sound is somewhere out there, separate from me. But I can clearly feel it in my head, in my ears.
Do you see any dividing line between yourself and the sound?
No, there is nothing like that.
Can you describe the sound without labeling the source?
Звук может быть тихим, едва слышным. Или громким, заполняющим все пространство.
Without the need for a label, can you touch the depth of the sound?
I think not, you need to use a label to describe the sound.
When you do this, is this an “internal” or “external” experience?
When am I trying to feel the depth of a sound and assign a label to describe it? The sound itself is an external experience. The name describing it is something inside of me that helps me understand the depth of the sound.


I'm not sure if I understood these questions correctly, but I'll try to answer them the way I understood them.
Who chooses? LOOK. Is there a choice in anger arising?
No, anger arises by itself.
A choice in a sense of “I” entangling with anger?
No, it happens by itself.
A choice in starting to think “It’s nothing more than a thought”?
It arises by itself in my head, consciousness.
Who manages and reconciles and “comes to terms?” LOOK to see if you can find this chooser. Please tell me what you find.
It is still difficult for me to realize this, but it seems that it arises without the participation of the “I”. My mind, or consciousness, does this.

But the identification with the “I” is still present somewhere inside. The brain protects this "I" because it has lived with it for too long.

[JanineJanaki]

Hi Alexandr!!

I've been thinking about your questions, and here's what I've got.

In this investigation, I ask that you largely put thought aside, in favor of Direct Experience. Later in the post, there will be exercise that perhaps clarifies “Direct Experience.” The questions are not to be contemplated for the purposes of this approach. Simply, read the questions and type the first thing that comes to mind. Do not ruminate.

After the thought disappears, everything will remain the same. And if I think in the context of me, then my body and mind will remain.

I see that you are using future tense here. Is this intended? And if so, how can you possibly know what will happen in the future? You may find that the only certainty is in the Direct Experience, not the thoughts that are plastered on, afterward.

Sometimes some kind of external situation, and sometimes thoughts themselves are born in the head, so to speak, out of nowhere.

LOOK at your current situation. Where you are right Now. What you are doing. How your mind state feels. Describe your “situation” in a few words.
And now, drop all of that. Feel into the moment. LOOK closer. Describe your Direct Experience of Now without the imposition of a “situation.”
Is there a difference between the experience of Now and the experience of a situation?
Which feels more true?

I find it difficult to answer this question, but I will try to assume that this is how consciousness reacts to an experience that is happening at the moment or happened in the past.

Assumption is another thought. We are not so interested in thought. Mind will endeavor to “figure it out,” and that’s ok. But we’re not interested in mind chatter. The mind volleys between past and future so rapidly that the only thing that is real is nearly missed. Forget about the volley. Come to Now.

Do you like thunderstorms?

I probably don't like the storm itself, it's too loud and windy.

Just a preference. Another thought. No big deal!

Is a thunderstorm a “problem,” something “gone wrong,” a “should not be?”

I think not, the storm arises on its own and also ends on its own.

Just like anger?

Without the need for a label, can you touch the depth of the sound?

I think not, you need to use a label to describe the sound.

Yes, but do you need a label to fully hear the sound? Does any label remotely convey the depth of what is heard?

When you do this, is this an “internal” or “external” experience?

When am I trying to feel the depth of a sound and assign a label to describe it? The sound itself is an external experience. The name describing it is something inside of me that helps me understand the depth of the sound.

Is an “external experience” EVER possible?
Does an experience occur “out there” with the source of the sound, or is it an internal perception, on part of “the observer”?
And yet you report,

Do you see any dividing line between yourself and the sound?

No, there is nothing like that.

So what’s the difference between “external” and “internal” without the thought, the belief in it?
Is there really any empirical evidence for “external” or “internal” if a dividing line cannot be located?

It is still difficult for me to realize this, but it seems that it arises without the participation of the “I”. My mind, or consciousness, does this.

Yes, the mind!
Does the mind create anger?
Consider that what we know as emotions are labels (thoughts) plus the raw sensations in the body. From there, the stories may begin… or we can begin to pay more attention to the Direct Experience of the raw sensations. Aware of the thought stream, but more interested in sensation.

Try this exercise:
FIRST IMAGINE getting a piece of fruit (that you have in stock) and cutting into slices.
With the slices in mind, notice the color, shape, and texture. Smell the fruit and take note of the scent. Place one of the slices upon your tongue. Take time to imagine slowly consuming. Please describe your experience.
AND NOW, ACTUALLY, retrieve the fruit and slice. Observe the color, shape, and texture. Smell the fruit. Place a piece on the tongue and slowly consume. Describe this experience.
How close does thought (imagining) come to the actual Direct Experience of seeing, smelling, and tasting?

Cheers!!
Janine

[Alexandr]

Hi, Janine! I need time to think about it.

[JanineJanaki]

No worries Alexandr!!

Peace and much love,
Janine

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Alexandr!

I need time to think about it.

Direct experience requires no time at all. Direct experience is now. This instant. What is here? Sights, sounds, tactile sensations, smells, tastes (perceived in varying degrees of intensity) and the stream of thoughts. Typically, what is here, now, is distorted by the alluring stream of thoughts. Judgments and stories applied to make sense of “what we think we see.” It has been said that “knowledge is power,” and so we’re in the habit of going to mind, “thinking,” to find answers. Thinking may be helpful to solve a crossword puzzle, but to go beyond the illusion of a separate self… thinking is simply “not the right tool for the job!”

In this investigation, we LOOK closely, in the moment. What is actually here, when we overlook the noisy thought stream? Do you understand?

It is quite helpful to maintain momentum in the process, as years of “thought addiction” that might have made us feel imprisoned within an unhappy self, quickly draw us back into conditioned habits of mind. In this spirit, please complete the exercise about the experiences of imagining and then directly seeing, smelling, and tasting a piece of fruit.

What I mean by this is that "I" is nothing more than a fiction that our minds have established.

Curious, what makes you state this? Have you SEEN it?

Cheers!
Janine

[Alexandr]

Hi, Janine, I fell out of our dialogue a little bit, the reason for this is a lot of work, and to be honest, I've been feeling sad for the last few days, but now everything is fine)

LOOK at your current situation. Where you are right Now. What you are doing. How your mind state feels. Describe your “situation” in a few words.

Now I'm typing, looking at the monitor and thinking.

And now, drop all of that. Feel into the moment. LOOK closer. Describe your Direct Experience of Now without the imposition of a “situation.”
Is there a difference between the experience of Now and the experience of a situation?
Which feels more true?

If we discard this, it turns out that printing happens by itself. The vision also happens by itself. So is thinking.

Yes, but do you need a label to fully hear the sound? Does any label remotely convey the depth of what is heard?

No label is needed, and that's how it sounds by itself. I think there is no such label.

Is an “external experience” EVER possible?
Does an experience occur “out there” with the source of the sound, or is it an internal perception, on part of “the observer”?

It turns out that when I hear a sound, I try to put a label on it)) although this is not necessary)) I got it)) But what about internal and external experiences? It turns out that there is nothing like that, and in general, there is no internal or external? It's hard to accept)
It turns out that I want to label everything that happens to me - thinking, seeing, anger, joy, etc. Just because I believe in it.

Try this exercise:
FIRST IMAGINE getting a piece of fruit (that you have in stock) and cutting into slices.
With the slices in mind, notice the color, shape, and texture. Smell the fruit and take note of the scent. Place one of the slices upon your tongue. Take time to imagine slowly consuming. Please describe your experience.
AND NOW, ACTUALLY, retrieve the fruit and slice. Observe the color, shape, and texture. Smell the fruit. Place a piece on the tongue and slowly consume. Describe this experience.
How close does thought (imagining) come to the actual Direct Experience of seeing, smelling, and tasting?

I tried this exercise, and this is what I got. I did it with an apple. In my imagination, of course, they don't smell the same as in live form), but the taste, both in imagination and in reality, I had a very similar one. I felt sour))

[JanineJanaki]

Hi Alexandr!

I fell out of our dialogue a little bit, the reason for this is a lot of work, and to be honest, I've been feeling sad for the last few days, but now everything is fine)

No worries. It’s helpful to honor the tides of the body.

No label is needed, and that's how it sounds by itself. I think there is no such label.

Imagine the sound of a small stream.
Is there anyway possible to convey this sound without using the label, “small stream?”
Does any label do more than meekly point to a felt experience?

It turns out that when I hear a sound, I try to put a label on it))

AND

If we discard this, it turns out that printing happens by itself. The vision also happens by itself. So is thinking.

Which is it, thinking occurs by itself, or “I try to put a label on it”?
Are you aware of assigning labels, or do thoughts just arrive?

But what about internal and external experiences? It turns out that there is nothing like that, and in general, there is no internal or external? It's hard to accept)

“Seeing is believing” or “believing is seeing?”
Is it easier to accept a thought such as “It’s hard to accept” than it is to accept direct experience?

It turns out that I want to label everything that happens to me - thinking, seeing, anger, joy, etc. Just because I believe in it.

Do you truly want to label everything?
Is there a choice in this?
Can you choose your next thought?

Let’s try an exercise.
Recall a recent time when you felt sad. See if you can capture a moment, a snippet in time.
In a paragraph describe the situation. Where you were. What you were doing. A brief summary of the content of your thoughts. How you were feeling, emotionally. Let your words take me to your experience.
And now, remove “the extras,” by typing, line by line, each sentence, omitting the subject (“I”) and excessive commentary.
For instance, the statement, “As I waited in the kitchen for the ham to finish cooking, I seethed about my mother-in-law’s insistence that our dog had been an angel when clearly she had bared all of her teeth!” could be reduced to:
Standing beside the oven. Feeling the heat from cooking. Hearing the hum of the oven. Smelling traces of spices in the air. Aware of the loud stream of thoughts and the tension in jaw and belly.

I tried this exercise, and this is what I got. I did it with an apple. In my imagination, of course, they don't smell the same as in live form), but the taste, both in imagination and in reality, I had a very similar one. I felt sour))

I’m not convinced! The mind is eager to efficiently conclude and summarize, thereby maintaining focus in the mental arena over the direct experience of the moment. In this investigation, we invite focus upon what is actually occurring, rather than mind chatter about it. Of course, we use words; without them, we could not have a conversation! But let’s redirect away from the thought stream. Please pick another food and do the exercise in its entirety again.
First, imagine sight, taste, smell, felt touch, and describe each of these arenas in a few words.
Then, actually place the item before you, after completing the first part. Look. Smell. Touch. Taste. Describe each of the arenas in a few words.
Finally, compare and describe the experiences of imagined versus actual!

Cheers!
Janine

[Alexandr]

Hi, Janine

Imagine the sound of a small stream.
Is there anyway possible to convey this sound without using the label, “small stream?”
Does any label do more than meekly point to a felt experience?

If you remove the label "little stream", then only the murmur will remain. Murmuring is also a shortcut to describe the sound. Everything must be labeled in order to understand what it is specifically, So that the brain recognizes it, a label is attached to everyone.

Which is it, thinking occurs by itself, or “I try to put a label on it”?

My thoughts arise in my head as a result of any events.

Are you aware of assigning labels, or do thoughts just arrive?

Thoughts come to mind on their own.

“Seeing is believing” or “believing is seeing?”
Is it easier to accept a thought such as “It’s hard to accept” than it is to accept direct experience?

Of course, the thought is much easier to accept than direct experience

Do you truly want to label everything?
Is there a choice in this?
Can you choose your next thought?

I just don't want to do it, it just happens by itself.
I have no choice in this matter.
Thoughts also arise by themselves in the head.

[Alexandr]

Let’s try an exercise.
Recall a recent time when you felt sad. See if you can capture a moment, a snippet in time.
In a paragraph describe the situation. Where you were. What you were doing. A brief summary of the content of your thoughts. How you were feeling, emotionally. Let your words take me to your experience.
And now, remove “the extras,” by typing, line by line, each sentence, omitting the subject (“I”) and excessive commentary.
For instance, the statement, “As I waited in the kitchen for the ham to finish cooking, I seethed about my mother-in-law’s insistence that our dog had been an angel when clearly she had bared all of her teeth!” could be reduced to:
Standing beside the oven. Feeling the heat from cooking. Hearing the hum of the oven. Smelling traces of spices in the air. Aware of the loud stream of thoughts and the tension in jaw and belly.

I was sitting at the computer, I was looking at the monitor and typing some text. My wife came up to me, we started discussing something, the conversation turned to raised tones. She started to prove something loudly to me, I started to prove it to her, we quarreled. I started to prove to her that we don't understand each other at all. I was very angry with her, I was upset that we had a fight again.…
Without the "I":
"To sit by the computer. To look at the monitor. To feel strong anger and frustration. To feel tension throughout the body."

First, imagine sight, taste, smell, felt touch, and describe each of these arenas in a few words.
Then, actually place the item before you, after completing the first part. Look. Smell. Touch. Taste. Describe each of the arenas in a few words.
Finally, compare and describe the experiences of imagined versus actual!

I imagined a banana. It's yellow. Soft, almost odorless. I'm cleaning it. I break off a piece and put it in my mouth. I'm chewing. He is very soft and gentle.

I took a banana. It is yellow, with black dots, and easy to clean. The smell of a banana is unmistakable, I broke off a piece and put it in my mouth. It's delicious and melts in your mouth. I take another bite, my jaws begin to chew it.
I can conclude that the real experience differs from the imaginary one in that my jaws actually moved when I chewed it. And the taste remained after I ate it. Otherwise, everything is very similar.