Who

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,


Good to hear from you. You’ve done some really good looking.

I have been doing to hand flipping exercise. I can see that there is no thought involved involved in it. Just today I 'thought' about stopping the flipping but didn't. So even when there is thought involved, it doesn't control anything.

Good.
Isn’t it like thought is kind of late to the party? Arriving after things are done, and claiming it did it?

I also recognise that thought 'covers' everything.

Yes.

Other observations have been how much Lisa is on autopilot. Showering, towelling off, cooking, dressing... all activities of daily living occur without thought or 'decisions' by Lisa. They are automatic. These behaviours is just functioning. I see this intellectually.

What do you mean – intellectually? How are observations intellectual? I’m not sure I get what you’re saying.

A 'trick' that came up for me is to hum. When I'm humming, words can't appear in Lisa's mind. There's no room for words when humming is happening.

Love it. :-)
Great you’re finding your own ways to outsmart thought.

The supposed problems start only after that plain brown paper mind package is opened, so to speak, and the content is labelled as negative/unwanted/not accepted.

Yes.

When at work, it's sometimes as quiet as a library. I LOVE it! I notice the silence and the stillness. A peace arises. A feeling of being rooted in something occurs.

That’s lovely!
Keep noticing this.

What is typing? It's happening in each and every moment faster than Lisa can keep up with. I just scratched my forehead. No thought involved. Autopilot. That behaviour has occurred thousands of times (stimulus - response).

Yes.

I already 'know' the answers, as I recognized that when I did it the first time, there was no decision maker at work.

I know you do, but we are not doing this for the answers. We are doing this simply for the fun of discovery – and also so that the observation carries over to other situations in daily life.

On the other hand, as you were doing the exercises earlier, that latest piece of worry which was yet to be shared may have been holding things back. There was a sort of half-hearted quality to it all before – was that also your impression?

Nothing wrong with repeating exercises, or even rereading one’s whole thread – from a new vantage point.

The intake via the senses, allows EVERYTHING. There is absolutely no choice/decision/control over what is or isn't seen, heard, smelled, tasted or touched. Awareness resists nothing. Only thought, or the mind, resists.

Yes.

I felt a bit deflated upon learning that I had engaged in all the LU exercises without a shift to be honest). No control. Yes. Thinks happen or they don't and both are fine. Yes.

Clearly I didn't internalize this or truly 'see' this as no apparent shift occurred.

Well, that’s the power of expectation – we expect something to happen, and when it doesn’t, there’s the feeling of deflation, disappointment, sadness – you name it.

What if expectations got the same treatment as other thought content next time they arrive? If they were not taken seriously?



That said, perhaps it’s time we talked about the old-fashioned spiritual idea of “surrender”? What comes up when you read this?




Thank you for your support.
You are welcome.

[LisaLisa]

Hello Lisa,

Good to hear from you. You’ve done some really good looking.

Aaaawwww… thanks!

I have been doing to hand flipping exercise. I can see that there is no thought involved involved in it. Just today I 'thought' about stopping the flipping but didn't. So even when there is thought involved, it doesn't control anything.
Good.
Isn’t it like thought is kind of late to the party? Arriving after things are done, and claiming it did it?

Yes. At times it's as if I’m going for a drive but looking out the back of the car. The view is of everything I’ve already passed.

Other observations have been how much Lisa is on autopilot. Showering, towelling off, cooking, dressing... all activities of daily living occur without thought or 'decisions' by Lisa. They are automatic. These behaviours is just functioning. I see this intellectually.
What do you mean – intellectually? How are observations intellectual? I’m not sure I get what you’re saying.

By intellectually I mean that there has been no accompanying emotion or feeling to this noticing. No apparent shift. (Has to do with expectations. I can see that).

I already 'know' the answers, as I recognized that when I did it the first time, there was no decision maker at work.
I know you do, but we are not doing this for the answers. We are doing this simply for the fun of discovery – and also so that the observation carries over to other situations in daily life.

Very good point! Process oriented, as opposed to goal oriented, and recognizing the implications in daily life.

On the other hand, as you were doing the exercises earlier, that latest piece of worry which was yet to be shared may have been holding things back. There was a sort of half-hearted quality to it all before – was that also your impression?

This observation intrigued me. That certainly makes sense. I’m not sure. I engaged in the exercises with interest at the time as I recall. I would be interested to hear more of your perspective given your experience with guiding.

Nothing wrong with repeating exercises, or even rereading one’s whole thread – from a new vantage point.

On that note, I just finished the drinks exercise again:

Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

The qualities appeared completely on their own, by themselves.

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The preferences popped up completely by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?

Nope! This happened automatically.

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No again!

Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

Not at all.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

No, not at all. Lisa’s right hand reached out and just picked up the water instead of the ginger ale.

What if expectations got the same treatment as other thought content next time they arrive? If they were not taken seriously?

Thought is thought is thought. No labels. Simply thought. Yes.

That said, perhaps it’s time we talked about the old-fashioned spiritual idea of “surrender”? What comes up when you read this?

Surrender to me is the allowing of resistance to drop away. The concept of surrender seems only to be needed when suffering is experienced. So surrender it the allowing of whatever ’negative’ experience is appearing (labels include anxiety, grief, confusion, despair) to be exactly as it is. Surrender is also the deep recognition of not having control over anything and recognizing the insanity of not accepting what already is. Surrender means bringing awareness to the deeply habituated pattern of self-created suffering which results from the overlay of negative thought stories to my life situation in order to let go of them.

I'm very interested to hear your take on surrender, Magdalena.

I also plan to reread my thread.

Heartfelt thanks for your support and encouragement.

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

At times it's as if I’m going for a drive but looking out the back of the car. The view is of everything I’ve already passed.

LOL Yes.

By intellectually I mean that there has been no accompanying emotion or feeling to this noticing.

Is emotion or feeling absolutely necessary? Wouldn't that just be labels added on top of observation/seeing?

No apparent shift. (Has to do with expectations. I can see that).

Please stop looking for shifts with every exercise. LOL It’s like a child checking how long it is till the end of the lesson every five minutes. LOL

On that note, I just finished the drinks exercise again:

Good. Spot on. :-)

The concept of surrender seems only to be needed when suffering is experienced.

That is not what I had in mind. Rather, I was viewing what they call “surrender” as a readiness to embrace the process of discovery wherever it leads. Without conditions. Without expectations. Without trying to control things. Having seen the futility of these, once it becomes a natural attitude, it is no longer a concept. It's a relaxation that comes from seeing that we are not in control, and we just cannot be.

Surrender is also the deep recognition of not having control over anything and recognizing the insanity of not accepting what already is.

Yes.
Would you be ready for it now?
Remember, it’s OK if you’re not. No need to press or try and force anything.
All it takes now is an honest look.

Surrender means bringing awareness to the deeply habituated pattern of self-created suffering which results from the overlay of negative thought stories to my life situation in order to let go of them.

OMG Sounds too sophisticated for me to take it in right now. Sorry. ;-)

I also plan to reread my thread.

Good. Enjoy. Tell me what you find.

Heartfelt thanks for your support and encouragement.

You’re welcome, as always.

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

By intellectually I mean that there has been no accompanying emotion or feeling to this noticing.
Is emotion or feeling absolutely necessary? Wouldn't that just be labels added on top of observation/seeing?

Good point. No. Emotion or feeling is not absolutely necessary.

No apparent shift. (Has to do with expectations. I can see that).
Please stop looking for shifts with every exercise. LOL It’s like a child checking how long it is till the end of the lesson every five minutes. LOL

Noted. Thanks : )

Surrender is also the deep recognition of not having control over anything and recognizing the insanity of not accepting what already is.
Yes.
Would you be ready for it now?
Remember, it’s OK if you’re not. No need to press or try and force anything.
All it takes now is an honest look.

Yes!

I also plan to reread my thread.
Good. Enjoy. Tell me what you find.

I will ; )

[Magdalena]

😊😊😊

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

Just touching base with you having finished rereading my LU dialogue with Lubo. Her pointing now makes much more sense.

Paying attention to noticing thought-stories+++

Being aware of thoughts (Before having the thought, “I need to pick that earring up off the floor” I first had to see the earring. Before having the thought, “I better turn off the lights” I first saw that the lights were on.)

It's all seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, tasting all by itself.

It seems more obvious how thought is not connected in any way to the doing. I can be engaged in any number of activities (driving, cooking, walking, laundry) and the thoughts are focused on something else completely. If the thoughts are irrelevant to the doing of the activity, obviously thought is irrelevant period and not the 'cause' of the activity/behaviour.

It's late here. That's it for now.

I hope you're well. Thank you.

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

I was also going to mention how helpful your pointing to noticing thought stories when feeling a 'negative' (agitated, annoyed, frustrated...) emotion has been. Yup! There's the thought story! Noticed. Hello thought story. I see you. The thought train rolls off the track.

Thank you.

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

Good observations.

It's all seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, tasting all by itself.

Yes.

I can be engaged in any number of activities (driving, cooking, walking, laundry)

Now for more fun. ;-)
Show me the one who is engaged in any activity.

Thank you.

You're welcome. Enjoy. ;-)

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

Show me the one who is engaged in any activity.

Well aren't you the tricky trickster :D I can't show you the one who is engaged in any activity. I can show you shape and colour that is labelled 'body.' I can show you sound that is labelled 'voice.' I can show you smell which is labelled 'body odour.'

Thank you, Magdalena

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

can't show you the one who is engaged in any activity. I can show you shape and colour that is labelled 'body.' I can show you sound that is labelled 'voice.' I can show you smell which is labelled 'body odour.'

So what is it you're showing me when you're showing me these?

[LisaLisa]

Good morning, Magdalena,

can't show you the one who is engaged in any activity. I can show you shape and colour that is labelled 'body.' I can show you sound that is labelled 'voice.' I can show you smell which is labelled 'body odour.'
So what is it you're showing me when you're showing me these?

I'm showing you the senses of seeing, hearing, smelling. In DE there are only the senses, and thinking (but not the content).

As for thinking, whether thoughts are about something or discursive, they are all just thoughts. Thoughts referencing other thoughts.

Thank you for your time.

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

I'm showing you the senses of seeing, hearing, smelling. In DE there are only the senses, and thinking (but not the content).

When you say you're showing an image, a sound, a smell etc., each with a certain label, aren't these the content (i.e. particular sensations) rather than "the senses"? I.e. what is perceived through the senses and then labelled?
Like if a reflection (or certain shapes and colours) is seen in the mirror and instantly gets labelled as "Lisa's body"? That makes it a visual sensation, right?

As for thinking, whether thoughts are about something or discursive, they are all just thoughts. Thoughts referencing other thoughts.

Is that LIsa's mind speaking, or Lisa's experience?


And so, if all that can be shown is sensations or thought content (thoughts are always "about something", aren't they?), where is the one engaged in various activities? In typing the answers? In thinking? In perceiving the thought stream?

Thank you for your time.

You're welcome. We have all the time in the world, don't we? ;-)

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

When you say you're showing an image, a sound, a smell etc., each with a certain label, aren't these the content (i.e. particular sensations) rather than "the senses"? I.e. what is perceived through the senses and then labelled?
Like if a reflection (or certain shapes and colours) is seen in the mirror and instantly gets labelled as "Lisa's body"? That makes it a visual sensation, right?

The seeing (colour and shape labelled body), hearing (sound labelled voice) and smell (odour labelled body odour) are what Lisa, and others, can verify, and each is the content of that particular sense which is then labelled. Yes. But there are no others. Right?

All of this is indeed what is perceived through the senses and then labelled by the mind - covered over with thought (not the senses themselves).

The one who is engaged in any activity is an idea - a thought. Therefore Lisa can't show you the one who is engaged in any activity because there is no one engaged in any activity. Activity, or experiencing, is merely happening.

This whole apparently figuring out process is happening but there is no separate entity, other than an idea, involved. Thus, no individual which is confused or trying to gain clarity. That's all thought. The thinking is happening but happening to no one. That's the illusion. These words are appearing on the computer screen and there is typing. There's no one here doing anything. That's the illusion.

The idea of a 'me' is all thinking based on assumption.

I can think, "Flip your hand over" and the hand doesn't move. I can think, "Don't flip your hand over" and flip the hand. I can think, "Stop flipping your hand over" and the hand keeps flipping. I noticed each time how there was no volition in the choosing to drink exercise. I'm aware that while engaged in one activity that the mind is somewhere else completely, thinking about something totally unrelated to the activity itself. There's no connection whatsoever between the activity and the thinking most of the time. Most activity is repetitive and has been conditioned over decades. Like breathing, it's automatic.

All of that was thinking which, of course, you recognize is being done by nothing. The thinking that 'I' can't see through this illusion is merely the illusion, created by identification with thought content, appearing in nothing.

I keep telling myself :D

Thanks Magdalena

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

But there are no others. Right?

How can this statement be verified?
Please experiment with different strategies in daily life, and report on what results they bring - whether it's found to be accurate or not.

Always LOOK before answering – LOOK several times. Don’t go to what you’ve read or heard. It’s literally pointless – unless taken as what they call “pointers” AND verified by yourself.

The idea of a 'me' is all thinking based on assumption.

As above: how can this be tested in daily life? With what results? Take your time, experiment. Don't take anything for granted just because you've heard or read it.

All of that was thinking … . The thinking that 'I' can't see through this illusion is merely the illusion, created by identification with thought content, appearing in nothing.

As above: how can this be tested in daily life? With what results?

I keep telling myself :D

Keep telling yourself what??

Thanks Magdalena

Welcome, Lisa, you’re very welcome.

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

Thanks for your patience.

In DE there are 'others' - I can see, hear, touch, and smell 'others'

The comment "I keep telling myself" merely referenced these statements: "All of that was thinking which, of course, you recognize is being done by nothing. The thinking that 'I' can't see through this illusion is merely the illusion, created by identification with thought content, appearing in nothing."

I can see that I'm trying to understand this through thought rather than DE / looking. I'm trying to create a new belief instead of observing in the moment in order to see this for myself. I'm looking to thought content instead of DE.

The idea of a 'me' is all thinking based on assumption.
As above: how can this be tested in daily life? With what results? Take your time, experiment. Don't take anything for granted just because you've heard or read it.

During the night I woke with a full bladder (no decision or choice in that), got out of bed (this apparent decision or choice already made before the body took off the covers), walked to the bathroom (automatic), emptied my bladder (nothing done by 'me' - the body knows what to do) and returned to bed.

It just started snowing. No decision or choice was made to 'notice' the snow out the window, it just happened. No decision or choice to turn my head and stare out the window. It just happened. No decision or choice to tell my husband, "Look! It's snowing!" it just happened.

While reflecting on this, I took a drink of my coffee. It then occurred to me that I never made any conscious decision to take a sip of coffee.

I just sighed. It merely happened. No decision or choice made.

I just noticed that my hand was placed against my face. Not conscious of any thought or decision or 'reason' to have done that. It merely happened. And just happened again.

I looked up at the fire burning while taking a sip of my coffee. No 'reason' or decision or choice involved. It just happened this time.

Foot started tapping. The noticing of this happened after the movement of the foot.

It occurs to me that 'looking' is like seeing through the eyes of an infant - preverbal. No words, no thoughts, no labels. Simply seeing, simply hearing, simply smell, simply touch, simply taste.

Thank Magdalena