Stream Entry

[Nicholas]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I see/experience the world as a little cell inside my brain, that would represent the 'self'. Also called "soul". From here I control this body and experience life.
LU states that this cell doesn't exists, there's nothing. no 'self'.
I sort of understand the point that LU makes, it's just that I have a REALLY hard time experiencing that concept.

What are you looking for at LU? I want to achieve Stream Entry, what you call Liberation.

3 reasons for this:

1) For a long time I had this theory that I actually don't have any control in life. I'm not controlling the body nor the mind. It happens by itself. How? by law of cause and effect.

For example, let's say I decide to play with my cat. Did I consciously take that decision? Nope. It happened unconsciously. Patterns emerged. A bunch of cells in my brain made some connections and determined that I want to play with my cat.

It's a bit hard to put into words. But basically, all decisions that I think I'm making were already predetermined based on patterns in my brain.
So, there's no actual choice. Why I'm writing this, right now, at this moment in time? it was already predetermined. It was bound to happen.

Sort of like when Morpheus says "What happened, happened and couldn't have happened any other way".

But it's just a theory. When it comes to experience... I feel I'm taking the decisions here. Lifting my arm, producing a thought... who did that? me.

2) Thinking that we have control is what creates inner conflict. I'm under the impression that I'm controlling this body, this mind, all the time.
So I become angry, mad, sad, because things aren't the way I want to.

And I think that's the problem.

I'm not controlling anything. Everything is just as it is.

Understanding... SEEING that... I think it would help me be a little bit more at peace with my life.

3) I'm a truth seeker. I want to know who is behind the curtains. I apply this to everything in life. I'm a skeptic, I want to know the truth, even if it hurts.

There's no self? excellent, I want to deeply understand and see that reality.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Well... I think a guided conversation is an excellent way to get Liberated if you have trouble doing it on your own. Maybe someone can help me asking the right questions, showing me WHERE I have to look.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I meditated for a couple months, also read some books on buddhism. I tend to visit meditation and streamentry subreddits.
When I read about stream entry I became interested... and then I heard about Liberation Unleashed and here I am. I want to know how deep the rabbit hole goes.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Nicholas]

While waiting for a guide I'm doing the 7 steps of the book and the other exercises from the quotes.

I actually had a small shift, I don't know what caused it... but I have to admit it is interesting...

Shift 1
“there are no wrong choices”

It happened suddenly a few days ago, I don't know how or when exactly because I realized it after the fact. I feel lighter. Like I've been liberated from something, something small though. I feel like it doesn't matter what kind of choices I make, I can't take whatever choice I want, it's all the same... there are no wrong decisions.

Whatever choice I make, it was going to happen anyway.

Any choice was already predetermined even before the need to make a choice based on different options.

I really feel like something inside me changed, something has been released... opened

[Nicholas]

I can't take whatever choice I want, it's all the same... there are no wrong decisions.

I can (typo)

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

My name is Alan and I'm very happy to guide in your exploration here if you are !

I'm intrigued by what you wrote in your second post in particular.


You finished that post in saying ......

I really feel like something inside me changed, something has been released... opened

Please tell me more about this change - what has been released, what has opened?




How does it feel now compared to "before"?




And is Nicholas the name you would like me to use?



I am Downunder as some call it on the east coast of Australia
What time zone are you in?



With love from Downunder


Alan

[Nicholas]

My name is Alan and I'm very happy to guide in your exploration here if you are !

Hi Alan nice to meet you! My best friend is also called Alan haha nice! Coincidence?

Please tell me more about this change - what has been released, what has opened?

IT IS strange. I feel like some (keyword here) weight has been lifted from my shoulders. Also feel a tiny bit more... happy? at peace? content with life? Accepting of how naturally things go?

How does it feel now compared to "before"?

A bit easier to make choices, because it really doesn't matter what choices I make or how much I care about it.
Before this I used to become angry by "things I done" but now... I mean there was no other way.

There is less overthinking.

And is Nicholas the name you would like me to use?

It's my second name. It's perfect.

What time zone are you in?

GMT-3

With love from Downunder

send you a hug

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

My best friend is also called Alan haha nice! Coincidence?

Like so many "coincidences" in life we'll never know how and why but a joy to notice them 😊

And noting what you say here .....

IT IS strange. I feel like some (keyword here) weight has been lifted from my shoulders. Also feel a tiny bit more... happy? at peace? content with life? Accepting of how naturally things go?

A bit easier to make choices, because it really doesn't matter what choices I make or how much I care about it.
Before this I used to become angry by "things I done" but now... I mean there was no other way.

There is less overthinking.

It is so often the case that we know something is different with these "shifts" but it's beyond language to describe it.



Now let's jump right in here. First of all a couple of things that come from what you write in your introduction

Can you tell me what you mean when you use the word "predetermined?"



How do you know things are predetermined?



As a result of embarking on this investigation here at LU do you have any particular expectations about...
How this investigation might / could / should unfold?



How life will change?



How your experience might compare to others?



Something you are expecting / want to happen that will convince you that you are "awake"?



And one more thing for today. Let the following statement really sink in.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story, a figment of the imagination.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement in red?





I see you have gotten the quote function worked out. Great ! I will use a blue font for questions (as you can see above) As you've done above Nicholas please respond to each individually.


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Those are a lot of questions. Is there a problem if I take 3-4 days to answer them in a notepad? taking the time with each one?

I will ping here everyday noting my progress... is that ok? I don't want to rush this process... even if I wanted to... I just can't, I'm not able.

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

Thank you for your honest response. I completely understand you wanting to take the time to respond.
In fact it is so much better not to rush things but to really come at this at a pace that feels "right" for both of us.

I don't want to rush this process... even if I wanted to... I just can't, I'm not able.

Please let me know if there is any sense of overwhelm at all and we can adjust things accordingly.

I will ping here everyday noting my progress... is that ok?

That's great Nicholas. Keeping me in the picture as to where you are up to works well.


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Just send your questions and I will answer them at my pace :)

So far I have to answer the last 2 questions. I'm still working on it.

Talk to you tomorrow!

[Alless]

😊😊😊

[Nicholas]

Hi! Alan, got the answers.

1) Can you tell me what you mean when you use the word "predetermined?"

predetermined means things have only ONE end and only ONE destiny. We can't change that, we are under the illusion that we are under control over things, over our body... over our mind. It's all an illusion.

We are victims of circumstances.

2) How do you know things are predetermined?

Because every effect has a cause. All the time. In nature this is obvious, but then in regards to humans?

We think we have free choice. Let's say you are given the choice between a red and a blue ball. Let's say I tell you "the choice has already been made before I ever presented you these balls".

What would you think? that's impossible. Ok, the choice has been made, how about I really think about this huh? red ball? no! blue ball!...
doesn't matter, your brain patterns are already leaning into a choice. All of this doubting, thinking... was bound to happen.

(this is all neat and clean, but if you ask me I still feel I'm taking decisions here. This is beautiful in theory but in practice based on EXPERIENCE I only believe it to be like... 30% true. So I'm still not there.)

In other words, I know things are predetermined but I still feel like I have some control here. I don't see things happening on their own.

As a result of embarking on this investigation here at LU do you have any particular expectations about...
3) How this investigation might / could / should unfold?

It will happen slowly, shift by shift until complete. The questions asked here are very deep and my brain is like "huh what is this" so it takes time to process everything.

4) How life will change?

I don't know, I can't know that. But there will be some kind of change, it's impossible not to. Even small.

5)How your experience might compare to others?

I think it will happen slowly, it won't be a sudden complete shift. Piece by piece the illusion will disappear.

6) Something you are expecting / want to happen that will convince you that you are "awake"?

As I understand... being "awake" is a change in perception. We see life as being separate from everything, we see life from a "self" viewpoint. There is a ME and then there's the rest of the world.

Once you are awake, that self disappears, there's no more ME. There is no more separation (there never was one).

I know my perception will change but I have NO IDEA how will that feel, I can't imagine that change in perception, I can't imagine how does it feel to live being awake. I don't think it can be explained, only experienced.

In other words... once it happens... I will know.

And one more thing for today. Let the following statement really sink in.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story, a figment of the imagination.

7) What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement in red?

looks interesting. after all, it's what all meditators are after, or well... mostly the buddhist ones. this is stream entry. the first path of the four.

it also feels... strange. there's no self? then what is this that I feel? this feeling of being alive? that's the self.
who is controlling this body and brain? the self.

so how come there is no self? that's not possible.

that's how I feel... I read the entirety of liberation unleashed book and also gatecrashers.

on an intellectual level I understand the notion of "no self". but on an experiential level... I don't see it, I don't feel it, I can't perceive it, I don't get it.

so that's why I'm here.

---

big hug

[Alless]

Thank you for your responses Nicholas

I know there is a lot in this post so as we have agreed, please take it at your pace

The responses here may seem blunt. But that's often what's required to interrupt entrenched thought patterns and cut through what is veiling the truth.
What reaction do you feel as you've read that responses may be blunt? (That first reaction felt without dressing it up at all)

It's all an illusion

That is a very definite statement you make.
How do you describe this illusion?




Is this something that you know from experience or is it something you have learned from others and accepted to be true?




Where did you go to find the answer to this?




I've read through your expectations. Instead of commenting specifically about what you wrote I will say this .....I ask that you do your best to lay them ALL aside !

The paradox here is that we come to this inquiry because of expectations and then we're asked to lay them aside ! Why is that? It is because they arise and exist in the realm of thought which is the domain of the illusion we are looking to see through.

Now while it is easier said than done, just do your best to leave them aside. The pointers that we will use help us do that.

And if we look honestly there is this over riding desire to "awaken." We even ask to lay that aside as it typically carries with it many assumptions about what it is.

The only valid expectation is the desire to see the truth of this that we call a "me." Once seen then other expectations will be touched. How they are touched is very individual and unique.

This notion of an "I" is the shakey (non existent) foundation on which so many of these expectations are built. This is what robs us of the peace we yearn for.

And another thing to be aware of. While we yearn to find the truth within us, it is every bit as important to find that which veils the truth. Becoming aware of what veils the truth is what this inquiry is all about. It's important to be acutely conscious of expectations and the thing to really be aware of is that expectations can cloud our investigation through having some preconceived notion about how we BELIEVE this will unfold. Expectations can seem to exert a power in and of themselves that add to the illusion we are subject to in the "conventional dualistic" way of living. The one certainty in this endeavour at LU is that what unfolds is never as we expect it to.

it's what all meditators are after, or well... mostly the buddhist ones. this is stream entry. the first path of the four.

Is this the truth and how do you know this is the truth?

on an intellectual level I understand the notion of "no self". but on an experiential level... I don't see it, I don't feel it, I can't perceive it, I don't get it.

so that's why I'm here.

Beautiful ! So let's dive in.


To find the truth of "no self" the approach here is to deconstruct the idea of the separate self. It is an unlearning, an undoing and for this reason the best way to approach this is to put aside everything you think you know or expect and just be with this exploration with an openness and a willingness to LOOK directly.
Do you feel anything within you that objects or resists laying aside everything you have learned or think or know or read or have been taught and just depend on your own authentic experience for the duration of this exploration ?




By applying the exercises and questions given throughout this exploration in your day to day living - not just sitting and pondering or imagining what we are exploring - but actually applying the ideas to your life and seeing them in action…actually doing the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out, you will then be able to LOOK and see that even though the separate self seems to appear over and over, the truth is that it actually can never be found. It is this continual ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that is the key. Eventually it won't matter that the sense of a separate self still appears...there is simply a knowing that it is a concept - a fictitious imaginary character. This exploration is not about getting rid of the separate self or getting rid of anything, but seeing that there was never a separate limited self to start with.

All that is asked is that you LOOK every day and LOOK diligently…not for anyone’s sake but for your own – for you to be 100% committed to yourself (as we have talked about already) in order to see through the idea of being the separate self. It is through this diligent LOOKING that realizations happen. On the flip side, being gentle with one self is also necessary. Many years of thinking one is a limited separate entity with ingrained beliefs and conditioning isn’t necessarily going to disappear overnight. So being gentle with yourself and having compassion for yourself is very necessary.
Is there anything we have covered so far that does not wit well with you at all?


So let us now look at one of the keys we will use in this exploration.


Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE for short)

So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.


What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?



Can you be 100% sure?



When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.


One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)



What are you are hearing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)



With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Alan, will be posting my progress day by day. thanks for your guidance.

hug

[Alless]

Thank you Nicholas !

[Nicholas]

I'm working on the answers. I don't know how long this is going to take. maybe a week? maybe less.
will keep updating everyday.

I just got to the "expectations" part.

Hug