Starting Here

[ZackiZen]

Hello, Nic,

I hope you're well.

Apologies for the late reply. I've been trying to kind of see what's going on these last couple of days.

I'll be responding to your questions first:
In my experience, I don't seem to be the thinker of thoughts because they just appear without any "heads-up". They appear moment to moment but I notice a quick "selfing" that's happening as soon as thought arises, claiming the thought is their own if that makes sense.. this happens so quickly that It appears I'm the thinker of the thoughts.

On the other hand, I can imagine things when I want to? Like for instance I can picture an image on my head at will.


I'd also like to share something. I'm noticing that these last couple of days, ever since that "taste" that I told you about happened, I find myself trying to compare my current present experience to that "taste" that I had.. I also find myself trying to grasp what's going on.. trying to "hold it" as if I want to understand it.. this generates some sort of frustration and also redirects my interest towards thought. Any ideas?

Talk to you soon.
Yours
K,

[Nikinutter]

Hello again!

I hope you're well.

I'm am thank you for asking.

Apologies for the late reply. I've been trying to kind of see what's going on these last couple of days.

No worries at all.

In my experience, I don't seem to be the thinker of thoughts because they just appear without any "heads-up". They appear moment to moment but I notice a quick "selfing" that's happening as soon as thought arises, claiming the thought is their own if that makes sense.. this happens so quickly that It appears I'm the thinker of the thoughts.

Correct, thoughts arise out of no where and disappear just the same way. And then the selfing...happens to us all, which isn't a problem. It's the noticing of it happening in real time where the illusion drops away.

On the other hand, I can imagine things when I want to? Like for instance I can picture an image on my head at will.

Yes, the mind is pretty cool. If I tell you to picture yourself walking along the beach you've probably imagined that as you read my words.

I'd also like to share something. I'm noticing that these last couple of days, ever since that "taste" that I told you about happened, I find myself trying to compare my current present experience to that "taste" that I had.. I also find myself trying to grasp what's going on.. trying to "hold it" as if I want to understand it.. this generates some sort of frustration and also redirects my interest towards thought. Any ideas?

Yes, this would generate frustration at not being able to will it to happen again. The experience you had was in a moment of NOT thinking. You were resting in direct experience just letting life flow while washing your hands. Did thinking give you that experience? Did you"try" to make it happen? Remember, thoughts just get in the way and take us out of the now. If you can label something or imagine something you're thinking. If you're trying to make something happen you're thinking. What was it about the experience "starting from right here right now everytime" while washing your hands that felt like an understanding? Don't think, go to direct experience only. Look there and let me know if anything comes up.

Warmly, Nic

[ZackiZen]

Hello Nic,

I don't think I was thinking at the time that experience happened. It didn't feel like I made it happen either. It just happened, out of nowhere kind of.

It felt like it made sense on a deep level. Not like made sense in my mind the way I would understand an idea or a concept.. but It just felt very direct and real? I'm not sure the term "felt understood" fits here because at that moment there was ONLY THAT? So It's like there's nothing that's misunderstood or nothing that's understood. I hope this makes sense.

I have a couple of questions/insights to share.. thank you for helping me address them.

If "thinking takes out of the moment", how come we should let it be anyways? Isn't that contradictory in a sense? Also, when you say "Notice", what kind of noticing are you referring to? Because usually to me, noticing is in the form of another thought "oh there's a thought." Am I missing something here..?

I'd like to also add; today it came to me that to be fully engaged in the present moment, I need to be able to completely give up many things in my mind, and to also fully trust this very present moment. How do improve these..?

One last thing, sometimes it feels like I'm being internally guided, or some of my questions are being very naturally answered from within when I ask them. For instance, when I mentioned the last point about fully trusting the present moment, something instantly appeared within me saying something like "As you should, this has always been with you and it's the only thing you ever had, why wouldn't you trust it?" Something like that. Is this just another thought pattern? Or is it something else? If yes, how do I distinguish between the two?

Thank you.
Yours,
K,

[Nikinutter]

Hi K,

It felt like it made sense on a deep level. Not like made sense in my mind the way I would understand an idea or a concept.. but It just felt very direct and real? I'm not sure the term "felt understood" fits here because at that moment there was ONLY THAT? So It's like there's nothing that's misunderstood or nothing that's understood. I hope this makes sense.

This makes perfect sense :)

If "thinking takes out of the moment", how come we should let it be anyways? Isn't that contradictory in a sense? Also, when you say "Notice", what kind of noticing are you referring to? Because usually to me, noticing is in the form of another thought "oh there's a thought." Am I missing something here..?

There is a difference between thinking I thought and just noticing a thought.
You can look at the sun and just appreciate the color, shape and warmth. This is noticing.
Or you can look at the sun and label it as a sun and think about what the temperature must be, the location of it in the sky and what that means to what time of day it is etc. This is thinking. You see the difference? Noticing keeps you in the experience and thinking takes you out of it.

Noticing a thought is just recognizing that you are having one and letting it pass away the same way it came. Thinking is attaching to it in some way. You can notice the feeling of thirst and get a glass of water or you can notice the feeling of thirst and start thinking about when the last time you had something to drink was, or think about what you want water, coffee, beer etc. and how that night taste.
Make sense?

I'd like to also add; today it came to me that to be fully engaged in the present moment, I need to be able to completely give up many things in my mind, and to also fully trust this very present moment. How do improve these..?

You can improve this by doing what you're doing; notice when you're thinking and let go of the thought. It's really simple but we make it so complicated!

One last thing, sometimes it feels like I'm being internally guided, or some of my questions are being very naturally answered from within when I ask them. For instance, when I mentioned the last point about fully trusting the present moment, something instantly appeared within me saying something like "As you should, this has always been with you and it's the only thing you ever had, why wouldn't you trust it?" Something like that. Is this just another thought pattern? Or is it something else? If yes, how do I distinguish between the two?

We do well to listen to those internal guides because you're correct, this has always been with you. It can be tricky to see the difference at times. Let's look at the content of thoughts and see if they have any substance.

If you were in a desert, dying of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts), or would you need to drink ‘real’ water?
Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you two options:
(1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) in my right hand there is a bottle of water.
Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?
So, can the label ‘water’, which is the actual experience of thought, quench your thirst?
Labels are ‘real’ as appearing thoughts but its ‘content’, what the label/thought is ABOUT is not ‘real’ and is NOT the actual experience of ‘content’.

Let me know how that goes.

Warmly Nic

[Nikinutter]

Hi K,

Just checking in. How are things going with you? Catch me up when you get a chance.

Nic

[ZackiZen]

Hello, Nic,

Apologies I'm replying late. I usually need a couple of days to really see how things go through and to try to touch in my actual experience. Plus, I'm mostly busy with life chores usually and I can rarely find a bit of time for myself. Please let me know if you'd like me to be more reactive and I'll try to figure something out.

I'd like to address the first part first; I think I can see the difference between thought and noticing. Noticing feels rather direct and intuitive? It's like, it just happens. Thought feels a bit more "forced"? This being said, I notice that the more I'm aware of thoughts, the more subtle and sneaky they get. So inevitably I eventually fall back into thought. What do you think of this?

As for the last analogy, I would naturally pick the water. But I'm not entirely sure how this translates into the experience of thought. If the content of thought isn't "real", why do I catch myself believing it?

Talk to you soon.

[ZackiZen]

Hello again, Nic,

I just wanted to share a quick something that's becoming kind of clear.

It appears to me that I'm taking the "Now" and "Here" as a concept. In other words, I'm trying to fixate on the now as a point in time, and the here as a location in space. This appears to me to be missing the point because well... This is still in the mind.

How do I open up more to this immediacy that's available at all time, rather than keep chasing the concept of a now and here?

Thank you kindly.

[Nikinutter]

Hi K,

Apologies I'm replying late. I usually need a couple of days to really see how things go through and to try to touch in my actual experience. Plus, I'm mostly busy with life chores usually and I can rarely find a bit of time for myself. Please let me know if you'd like me to be more reactive and I'll try to figure something out.

No worries at all. I just like to check in, especially with those who post more regularly. Sometimes people don't want guidance anymore or just disappear for what ever reason. It's good for me to know where the people I'm guiding are at so I know if I have space to help someone else. Please take your time, no rushing these things.

I'd like to address the first part first; I think I can see the difference between thought and noticing. Noticing feels rather direct and intuitive? It's like, it just happens. Thought feels a bit more "forced"?

Yes, there is nothing forced in noticing, everything is just happening without effort. Thinking can definitely feel forced like you're trying to make something happen.

This being said, I notice that the more I'm aware of thoughts, the more subtle and sneaky they get. So inevitably I eventually fall back into thought. What do you think of this?

They can be sneaky! But, do not worry about getting back into thought. We are not trying to stop or rid ourselves of them but rather just notice them and our tendency to fixate on them. Noticing is direct experience.

As for the last analogy, I would naturally pick the water. But I'm not entirely sure how this translates into the experience of thought. If the content of thought isn't "real", why do I catch myself believing it?

Do you believe the content of thought is real?

It appears to me that I'm taking the "Now" and "Here" as a concept. In other words, I'm trying to fixate on the now as a point in time, and the here as a location in space. This appears to me to be missing the point because well... This is still in the mind.

Yes, this is still in the mind. You're trying to make something happen rather than simply doing. It's true as there is is here and now but you can't think it into being so. You have to experience it. It's tricky to notice so this is a great observation on your part. Let's explore this. When you focus on now as a point in time what do you find? Do you find the location of here? What is going on right before you start trying to find here and now? Really try to feel into the experience and find the sensations in the body.

How do I open up more to this immediacy that's available at all time, rather than keep chasing the concept of a now and here?

By doing what you're doing and noticing when when your conceptualizing again. By noticing when you're trying to make something happen. The noticing is the experience, it is that which brings you back to reality.

Please try this exercise when you get a chance. I'm wondering if it helps clarify her and now.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all)
somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.
But is there an experience of the ’now’moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

[ZackiZen]

Hello Nic,

I'll try answering the questions in order: I have a tendency to "follow those thoughts, even if I know they're not real. Somehow they still interest me anyway, I think this is because they seem to be talking about me" I think that might be the root issue here.. The thing is, even when I try to notice these thoughts, it still feels like
there's a "Me noticing said thoughts.
When I focus on now as a point in time I just find this
what's happening right now. I don't find a location that's specifically here, but it still feels like "I'm here".
It feels like nothing is going on before I try to find the
"Here and now". Things are just happening, even thought..
No, in experience there seems to be no Now moving in time. There seem to be just this immediate moment every time. I'm aware that I'm conceptualizing the "Now" as something that moves through the line of time, I'm guessing it s out of habit. Even calling it "This moment seems to be in thought. In my direct experience there's just this? Not sure how else to point to it. It seems to be all happening in thought. But that's also happening now? Events happening after one another seems to be only true in thought too, in direct experience there' s only this current even?
The present moment doesn't seem to be moving. It seems to be always here. It feels like it begins now but also ends now? but this repeats each time? maybe it doesn't begin at all and it s just always here. The now never becomes the past in my experience. Its always fresh in a way. I have to go to thought to find the past, it doesn't seem to exist here.
I'm going to ask a huge favour, Nic. And I understand if you cannot go through with this. I still appreciate you and what you do for us here nonetheless.
Would it be to schedule to call? Even 30 minutes Would suffice.

Thank you.
Yours,
K,

[Nikinutter]

Hi K,

I have a tendency to "follow those thoughts, even if I know they're not real. Somehow they still interest me anyway, I think this is because they seem to be talking about me" I think that might be the root issue here..

Do you feel like you ARE your thoughts? What would happen to "you" if you lost all memory before now? Really feel into that.

The thing is, even when I try to notice these thoughts, it still feels like there's a "Me" noticing said thoughts.

When you look for a thought in direct experience what do you find? What is actually there?

It feels like nothing is going on before I try to find the
"Here and now". Things are just happening, even thought..

Yes, things do just happen including thought.

No, in experience there seems to be no Now moving in time. There seem to be just this immediate moment every time. I'm aware that I'm conceptualizing the "Now" as something that moves through the line of time, I'm guessing it s out of habit. Even calling it "This moment seems to be in thought. In my direct experience there's just this?

Correct, in direct experience there is just this. And I'll add direct experience is what's real. Your thoughts are not real.

Not sure how else to point to it. It seems to be all happening in thought. But that's also happening now? Events happening after one another seems to be only true in thought too, in direct experience there' s only this current even?
The present moment doesn't seem to be moving. It seems to be always here. It feels like it begins now but also ends now? but this repeats each time? maybe it doesn't begin at all and it s just always here. The now never becomes the past in my experience. Its always fresh in a way. I have to go to thought to find the past, it doesn't seem to exist here.

Correct, the past ONLY exists in memory which are just thoughts.

I'm going to ask a huge favour, Nic. And I understand if you cannot go through with this. I still appreciate you and what you do for us here nonetheless.
Would it be to schedule to call? Even 30 minutes Would suffice.

We could do that. I'm not sure how much help I'll be in the moment. I read what you write and think a bit before I can find what is important to point to. But, I'm willing to try and help.
What time zone are you in? I'm in Pacific standard time.
What do you have in mind in the way of a conversation?

Warmly, Nic

[ZackiZen]

Hello Nic,

Thank you for getting back to me. Thank you for taking all the time and effort to sit with me through this interaction.
And thank you to Liberation Unleashed for the opportunity.

I think I'm done with the seeking, Nic. I'll be spending my days looking to what's already available here and that's it. I'm kind of tired of all the conceptualizing, all the looking and all the digging. I seem to be going in circles.

Thank you dearly for this opportunity.
I wish you well.
Stay safe,
Yours. Khalil,

[Nikinutter]

Hi Khalil,

Truly it is not about seeking but resting in what is always available here and now, you've got this. And you're very welcome, I wish you all the best. If you ever feel like you want to chat again just reply here.

Take Care, Nic

[ZackiZen]

I might check in sometime in the future

In the meantime you stay safe and take care too
Much love

[ZackiZen]

Hello, Nic,

I hope you've been well.

I see it.
But it's so subtle. Soooo subtle. ... It feels so "primitive".. so primary to everything..

[Nikinutter]

Hey K!

So nice to hear from you. I am doing well, thank you for asking.

I see it.
But it's so subtle. Soooo subtle. ... It feels so "primitive".. so primary to everything

So....you want to explore this? I'm game if you are. Let me know.

Warmly, Nic