The Freedom of no Self

[aloshan]

What is found?

I lied about my knee clicking after I was hurt.

There was a deep sensation in the pit of my stomach and the center of my chest. A contraction towards the center of my body, a curling in of the body. It felt heavy in the center. It felt like parts of my body were misaligned.

Do you see that?

Yes, I see the difference between labeling sensation - adding a story to it, and the bare sensation itself.

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. Now let's bring it together.

Don't you remember the apple exercise?
How is "self" any different?

This one:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Oops ignore the first 2 bits.

[aloshan]

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

they seem to describe experience only. The color, taste, touch, sound, smell - these are all experiences. In sight, there seems to be only the seeing, in taste, there seems to be only tasting, in touch there seems to be only sensation, in sound there seems to only be hearing and in smell there seems to only be odor. In thought there seems to only be labels, descriptions of experience.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

I cannot know for sure if an apple is really here, I can only know for sure that there is the experience of what the mind has labelled "apple" occurring. I could be dreaming about an apple, but the experience of an apple still exists

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, only experience can be found in actual experience

[Anastacia42]

Yes.

Do you SEE this or only think it?

How does it FEEL to see no apple?

[aloshan]

Do you SEE this or only think it?

I directly see that none of experience contains anything but experience itself

How does it FEEL to see no apple?

I'm not sure if I understand this question, can you restate it?

[Anastacia42]

There is no "apple." Just like no spoon.

https://youtu.be/Ph02o6K2aoo?si=m7tezrGXM9xeb3F8

Meditate on it.

Loving,

[aloshan]

Yes, there is no evidence for an existence of a "thing" with its own identity as an "apple"

[Anastacia42]

Right, but that's still *thinking* See my sig quote



Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.


Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..


Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing

Hearing

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.





How does it FEEL to SEE there no separate "self?"

[aloshan]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I am clear on this

How does it FEEL to SEE there no separate "self?"

It feels freeing, all problems instantly end, all plans for the future instantly ceases, all regrets of the past mean nothing.

[Anastacia42]

There you go!

Hang out there. Let it deepen.

[aloshan]

Hang out there. Let it deepen.

Thank you

[aloshan]

Hang out there. Let it deepen.

I have hung out here, there is no self to be found anywhere, however there is an attempt by the mind to make awareness into a self and the reasoning is such - "well ofcourse you cant find the self, it is the one which is observing and looking, just as you cant bite your own teeth and you cant use your eyes to see itself, so too can the self never be seen as it is the one which is looking out".

therefore you cannot experience it, but this is not enough to say conclusively that there is no self

I feel like the mind is trying to wriggle out of seeing this clearly, its looking for something, anything to place its identity on and its used the above logic to do so. The logic seems sound though, I cannot refute it.

Can you help me pull apart the above sentence to determine why its untrue?

[Anastacia42]

Logic is of no use here. See my signature quote.

Check your gut.

Tight? If so, you're lying.

Loose, relaxed? That's truth.

Don't believe me. Check known lies & truths.

Loving

[aloshan]

I have a chonric body condition that causes spasms so its hard to always refer to body

my mind fired back with "how can I trust direct experience to be true, what if there is a self outside of experience"

anyway, have overcome this issue now. Its not about developing another belief in no self. The answer was that we can't possibly know if there is a controller/self outside of experience but that's not the belief. The belief is there is something *in experience* that seems to be a self.

its irrelevant if there is or isnt a permanent thing controlling everything outside of experience. I just need to clear the belief that there is a self IN experience that is an agent or controller. That is the beleif and one that is demonstrably untrue. there is no controller here in experience at all, and no need to posit one,all of experience is just happening without a me or I.