Starting Here

[ZackiZen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
This guidance will help me investigate what I take myself to be and perhaps decompose that or make it clearer

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm constantly in my head. Even when typing this I'm in my head. I learned to navigate life through my head. This created some sort of momentum where I'm constantly hypnotized and driven towards thought, after thought, after thought. Even when I "snap back" and acknowledge that I was absorbed in thought, there's a very brief moment of "nothingness" but that recognition and acknowledgment are very quickly conceptualized, and there I am again, in thought.

I feel like my "obsession with thought" is my biggest hindrance. This seem to be caused both by habit, and by getting used to figuring things out with thought. But I understand this cannot be grasped by thought. I know this for certain because I occasionally have a direct experience of it. Occasionally, it feels like some sort of gap appears that feels very not-tense. Although usually, the recognition of it is soon hijacked by thought.

Sorry for the lengthy response.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A way to navigate my relationship with thought. I expect to be able to directly look into what I am, prior to thinking about it. It feels like I have a very vague sense of what that is. Perhaps I need more help with sitting in that gap, before the mind chatters picks up again.

Maybe I'm looking at this the whole thing the wrong way too. I remain open to any help I can get.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I picked up meditation for a period of time. Mostly mindfulness meditation. It helped me feel relaxed throughout the day, but I quickly lost interest in that. It felt like I'm only relaxed when meditating/post meditation. Outside of that, the rambling and identification go on.

In terms of seeking; I was introduced to "this" through a couple of intense psychedelic experiences. Those experiences fueled my interest. I was able to see how fragile the world I take to be real is. It was at first shocking, but one thing kept me grounded throughout those rides, and that is "being here". Things only seemed to not feel right when I thought about them. When I didn't and tried to stay present, they seemed "just things". Which was very interesting to me at the time. I starting read a couple of books, never finished any. I also listen to podcasts occasionally, featuring non-duality teacher and guides. I watch few people talking about this on YouTube too. The most that seemed to "get to me deeply" were Paul Hedderman and maybe Angelo Dillulo.

Inquiry: I think I don't get it. I either cannot find the answers, or the answers seem so obvious that I cannot reply in an authentic/genuine way. Inquiring fuels my thought and the mind activity. I might be doing this wrong, when I ask questions, it's either I legitimately can't answer, or I don't know what to say?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Nikinutter]

Hello Zakizen,

My name is Nic and I'd be happy to be your guide on this journey. How would you like me to refer to you?
I am very familiar with being "constantly in my head". It can be a difficult place to be when attempting to inquire into the self because it can indeed get in the way of seeing what has always been here.

But I understand this cannot be grasped by thought. I know this for certain because I occasionally have a direct experience of it. Occasionally, it feels like some sort of gap appears that feels very not-tense. Although usually, the recognition of it is soon hijacked by thought.

You are correct, this can't be known through logic or thought. You mentioned direct experience, what is your understanding and experience of this? LU is focused on seeing through the illusion of a separate self through direct experience so I'd like to start with what you understand about this so I know how to best point.

Are you ready to get started?

Warmly, Nic

[ZackiZen]

Hello,

Sincere apologies for the late reply.
Please refer to me as "K".

Direct experience: my understanding of direct experience is the experience of life as it is moment to moment. In a way it's the way everything is prior to my cognitive and conceptualization. It's direct because it's experienced in a spontaneous and direct manner.
My experience of it: I'm not entirely sure how to answer this if I'm being honest. On one hand it feels like I'm constantly experiencing direct experience (because there's only here now in a way?) But at the same time I sometimes feel extremely hypnotized that I'm not feeling as "present" as I'd like to be.
Nonetheless, I have experienced moments I could refer to as a direct experience. Moments where everything seemed so unfiltered and so undevied. And moments where the sensation/experience/feeling pierced right through me, without having the chance to first cognize or even recognize it.

I'm definitely ready to start. Please accept my apologies again for the late reply. I really appreciate that you reached out to help.

Yours,
Khalil

[Nikinutter]

I'm definitely ready to start. Please accept my apologies again for the late reply. I really appreciate that you reached out to help.

Nice to meet you K! And no worries at all. Sometimes people don't get the initial response because they haven't subscribed to the thread, so I wanted to reach out to ensure that you knew that was offering to guide you. So let's get started..

my understanding of direct experience is the experience of life as it is moment to moment. In a way it's the way everything is prior to my cognitive and conceptualization.

Correct, it's just life happening without thoughts labeling and spinning stories based on our past experiences.
So many of us believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind). This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.
So, for practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing.

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on direct experience to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience.

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?

Can you be 100% sure?

When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to direct experience EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.

With that said, one of the things that veils direct experience is the phenomena of labeling. Let’s use direct experience with seeing and hearing for a start.

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)
What are you are hearing? (without labels.)
How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be? How does "me" shows up at experience? What is "me" made off? And where exactly is it ? In the room?
Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

I forward to hearing from you!

Warmly, Nic

[ZackiZen]

Hello Nic,

I'll try to address your questions from my direct experience as the moment as I am responding to this thread, although I'm not entirely sure I'm able to successfully name things without referring to labels.

- I'm seeing hands holding a phone, and actively typing on a phone screen.
- I'm hearing people chatter.
- I'm not sure how I can answer this question. It doesn't feel like I need to conceive myself at all because it feels very intuitive to recognize myself. In experience, it just shows up as a feeling of "me". Not sure how else to describe the feeling. At this very moment, it feels like it's only made out of that feeling of "me". As for where it is, it doesn't seem to be anywhere specific, it just feels like it's "here".
It feels like it resides "here".

[Nikinutter]

Hello again K,

I'm seeing hands holding a phone, and actively typing on a phone screen.
I'm hearing people chatter.

You see how you are adding an "I" to all of your experiences? Interesting isn't it? Get curious about that.
The exercise is really about recognizing our perpetual use of labels and that they are truly not needed. In fact it only serves to make us feel like the subject of our experience rather than just part of experience.
Rather than "I'm seeing hands holding a phone, and actively typing on a phone screen" are you able to just see this happening?
"I'm hearing people chatter" Just hearing, nothing more. Hearing is happening.
Try this throughout your day. Notice yourself pouring coffee, the smell, the sensation of warmth, the taste. No labels or descriptions in your mind. Just pure experience. When you're hearing, no matter if it's a dog barking or people talking, just notice the sound happening. Do this with taste, sensations, smells and thoughts. Just noticing with no labels. Let me know if anything shifts for you.

I'm not sure how I can answer this question. It doesn't feel like I need to conceive myself at all because it feels very intuitive to recognize myself. In experience, it just shows up as a feeling of "me". Not sure how else to describe the feeling. At this very moment, it feels like it's only made out of that feeling of "me". As for where it is, it doesn't seem to be anywhere specific, it just feels like it's "here".
It feels like it resides "here".

When you say it is "here" are you referring to somewhere in your body? If so where do you feel "you" are located? In the chest areas? Behind the eyes? What does that feel like? Please try to describe the "feeling" of you and we'll go from there.

Warmly Nic

[ZackiZen]

I've been trying to move towards the senses lately. I've been trying to shift my attention towards the senses and to allow it to rest there. However, my attention is soon shifted towards thought. It would be thoughts like "ah now I'm doing this right." Or thoughts like "hmm why am I thinking about this again?" Or "I should fall back into the senses" or anything in between. What I've come to realise is that these thoughts get sneakier and more subtle the more I identify them. For instance, a thought appears while my attention is on looking at something > I'm hypnotized by the thought and giving it my full attention > I realize that I'm drawn into the thought > I sometimes get back to what I'm doing, other times that realization is followed by a thought "oh I was absorbed in thought".. can you see the pattern I'm trying to explain?


What would you suggest doing here?

Thank you.
Yours, K

[ZackiZen]

Addressing the last set of questions:
I would say the feeling of me is most present in the head maybe? I'm honestly not even sure because it doesn't seem to reside anywhere specific. It seems like I'm just taking it for granted for some reason.

[Nikinutter]

Hi K,

For instance, a thought appears while my attention is on looking at something > I'm hypnotized by the thought and giving it my full attention > I realize that I'm drawn into the thought > I sometimes get back to what I'm doing, other times that realization is followed by a thought "oh I was absorbed in thought".. can you see the pattern I'm trying to explain?
What would you suggest doing here?

Yes I can see. Let me give you a couple pointers to consider.
1) When one is "trying" to do something that's all mind related. There is nothing to "try to do". Direct experience is always here and available, it never goes anywhere because it just is life happening. Make sense?
2) The idea is not to stop thoughts, that is an impossible task, it's just to notice thoughts happening. You are doing that but with a story attached to it of "oh I was absorbed in thought" which is just another thought. And around in circles it goes.
As with just noticing the senses without labels, it's no different with thought. So, rather than "I was observed in thought" it's just thoughts arising and floating away. See if you can rest there and let me know how it goes.

I would say the feeling of me is most present in the head maybe? I'm honestly not even sure because it doesn't seem to reside anywhere specific. It seems like I'm just taking it for granted for some reason.

Ok not being able to find a location is great. Now consider these questions
Does the body experience sensations and thought? or
Is the ‘body’ just another thought label for sensations?

Warmly, Nic

[ZackiZen]

Hello Nic,

I think it does make sense. So what you are saying is that there's only X thing happening (whether it is seeing, hearing, etc..) but it appears that I'm doing it or that I'm trying to do it because the thought says so and I'm believing it? I would agree with this. Prior to the thought appearing there's only happening. Once the thought appears and I'm drawn into and believe it, suddenly it's an action I'm doing... what's the matter here?

I'm not so sure about the body. In direct experience I cannot seem to really identify it. Can you please elaborate on these questions? I'm not sure how to properly investigate in this regard.

Thank you,

[ZackiZen]

Hello, Nic,

Something just came into mind now and it felt "understood", even though I conceptually understood this a while ago...

I wanted to let you know so here I am. It has to do with something you mentioned earlier in our exchange, about starting from "RIGHT NOW RIGHT HERE EVERYTIME"...

I think I've felt this for the first time. I think for a second now this went deeply into me and somehow made sense. But it made sense in a different way.

It kind of came to me that up until this point I wasn't starting from right here right now everytime. I was in fact starting from the point I thought I reached in my mind (I hope this makes sense) or the progress I thought I made. Now I kind of understand this.. it's like every moment is an opportunity to start over??? And that's all that matters?

I'm not sure. I might be deluding myself here.. but I'm sure it felt understood on some kind of a deep level. It came to me while I was washing my hands.

Would love to hear from you soon.
Yours,
K

[Nikinutter]

Hi K,

I was trying to post a reply to your first one all day, but the forum was down for me. I'll take a look at you last post and get back in a bit.

I think it does make sense. So what you are saying is that there's only X thing happening (whether it is seeing, hearing, etc..) but it appears that I'm doing it or that I'm trying to do it because the thought says so and I'm believing it?

Yes. When you have a thought rather than just noticing it, it sounds like you're you're attaching the "self" to it which creates stories such as "I'm thinking again" or "I need to get back to direct experience."

I would agree with this. Prior to the thought appearing there's only happening. Once the thought appears and I'm drawn into and believe it, suddenly it's an action I'm doing... what's the matter here?

Exactly. There is nothing to do with a thought other than just notice it. And when you do create selfing statements just notice that as well. No judgment, just noticing.

I'm not so sure about the body. In direct experience I cannot seem to really identify it. Can you please elaborate on these questions? I'm not sure how to properly investigate in this regard.

Are"you" your body? What exactly is a body? Is that more clear?

Thank you for letting me know what's not clear so I can get a better picture of what doesn't work for you.

Warmly, Nic

[Nikinutter]

Something just came into mind now and it felt "understood", even though I conceptually understood this a while ago...

Isn't this interesting how this happens? That small shift where knowledge becomes known.

I wanted to let you know so here I am. It has to do with something you mentioned earlier in our exchange, about starting from "RIGHT NOW RIGHT HERE EVERYTIME"...
I think I've felt this for the first time. I think for a second now this went deeply into me and somehow made sense. But it made sense in a different way.

That's how it often happens, wonderful!

It kind of came to me that up until this point I wasn't starting from right here right now everytime. I was in fact starting from the point I thought I reached in my mind (I hope this makes sense) or the progress I thought I made. Now I kind of understand this.. it's like every moment is an opportunity to start over??? And that's all that matters?

Exactly. There is just now always. What brings us away is our thoughts about this feeling or that story etc...it's the recognition of that and coming back to the moment every time. That is what matters as you stated :)

I'm not sure. I might be deluding myself here.. but I'm sure it felt understood on some kind of a deep level. It came to me while I was washing my hands.

I don't think your deluding yourself at all. No one but you can know if a shift has happened but I sense in your tone and explanation of the experience that something definitely has. We can prod at this a bit though...

Let's look at this:
Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?
Can YOU think and choose a thought?

Look forward to hearing from you,
Nic

[Nikinutter]

Something just came into mind now and it felt "understood", even though I conceptually understood this a while ago...

Isn't this interesting how this happens? That small shift where knowledge becomes known.

I wanted to let you know so here I am. It has to do with something you mentioned earlier in our exchange, about starting from "RIGHT NOW RIGHT HERE EVERYTIME"...
I think I've felt this for the first time. I think for a second now this went deeply into me and somehow made sense. But it made sense in a different way.

That's how it often happens, wonderful!

It kind of came to me that up until this point I wasn't starting from right here right now everytime. I was in fact starting from the point I thought I reached in my mind (I hope this makes sense) or the progress I thought I made. Now I kind of understand this.. it's like every moment is an opportunity to start over??? And that's all that matters?

Exactly. There is just now always. What brings us away is our thoughts about this feeling or that story etc...it's the recognition of that and coming back to the moment every time. That is what matters as you stated :)

I'm not sure. I might be deluding myself here.. but I'm sure it felt understood on some kind of a deep level. It came to me while I was washing my hands.

I don't think your deluding yourself at all. No one but you can know if a shift has happened but I sense in your tone and explanation of the experience that something definitely has. We can prod at this a bit though...

Let's look at this:
Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?
Can YOU think and choose a thought?

Look forward to hearing from you,
Nic

[Nikinutter]

I've been having troubles with this forum freezing today, posting twice was not intentional!