Need to stop going in circles on this, if this forum is a way out then I am pleading for help

[SeanS]

Please let me know your thoughts about that.

Thank you for that thorough description, that makes a lot of sense. It was difficult to really tell what the limits of this investigation is, what's related to it and what is outside the scope, because as you said it doesn't SEEM limited, but obviously there's a specific focus for LU.

It just wasn't really clear where that focus ends, with all the talk of shifts and "realizations that can't be lost" early on, even though little feels that consistent in experience. Seeing those separate steps (even if no description is perfect or firm) simplifies it. Regardless of any conflict, there is still no doubt that the separate self is only experienced in thought.

If this seems like a good stopping point for you then that's perfectly fine. As you said I'll continue to explore direct experience and any other illusions in it anyway, and if that first step still seems shaky then I'll keep checking it too.

But thank you so much for all of the support, guidance, patience and compassion throughout all of this! Really appreciate it and hope whatever path you're on too goes just where it needs to go, even right here! :)

For example, don’t your are more clear now than when you started?
At the same time, you feel that there is SO MUCH MORE to unravel right?

WHAT IS is literally infinite. So exploration never end even though it get clearer.
Is even stranger than that, the more clearer it gets, the more it feel that there is to “clean”.
That make sense to you?

Yes, that may just be it... it feels like rather than any "closure" of inquiry there's so much more to explore than before, and maybe that's part of what feeds the belief in doubt and confusion.

Aren’t you always here?
Aren’t you the one that never change?
What you are is inconceivable and unfindable. Nevertheless, here you are.

That... both fits, resonates, but also clarifies why it didn't quite feel right, why there's suspicion or doubt.

If I spent decades identifying one way (and still often do!) Only to suddenly notice it's an illusion, what makes it so sure that "I" am always here?
That I never change? That the one that knows is "me", or something new to identify with?

Just because it seems or feels that way at times? Just like how it seemed I am Sean acting through body and thoughts to change experience?
Nothing feels quite certain about an I or a Me and that's just fine. More to look for in direct experience.

You are nothing (not a thing) disguise in everything (every thing appearing)
Nothing defines you. But you do not need a definition, right?
You do no need intermediaries like, sense, perception, nor thoughts to be what you already ARE. Right?

Hahahah, that's perfect. Fully agree, no definition or intermediaries needed to just be. Everything already just IS anyway. Nothing and no one "making it happen".

Thank you.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

To cross the gate "officially" there is still some pointers that we need to explore if that alright with you. They are very interesting.

About your questions. All this process is about identification. Often we identify with more and more subtle things until it is seen clearly that all identification is made up.

At the same time all identification when is présente feel real in the moment.

Like a dream feels real in the moment and illusory the next.

We can get stuck easily when working with the "sense of me". Because often we have to much expectations and imagination about it.

I don't use much the "sense of me" approach. Because EVERYTHING IS YOU.

Like in a dream everything is me literally. So it is not wrong to identify with whatever I feel like. Even if I identify as a rock in my dream, it is true I am that rock.

The interesting question is not what I identify with but what this thing I am identifying with IS. What really matter is that I found out that the rock is not a rock. When this is seen the identification stop naturally. It stop in the sense that I understand I wasn't really identifying with a rock but with my own mind. Just like in a dream you ARE all the objects of the dream. But in a dream there are no objects.

There are no objects in waking state either.

So yes, off course you are Sean,
but Sean is not Sean...

Exploration

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?

[SeanS]

To cross the gate "officially" there is still some pointers that we need to explore if that alright with you. They are very interesting.

Definitely, always interested in more!
But feel free to put us back on track if I derail, or to point out anything outside the scope.

So yes, off course you are Sean,
but Sean is not Sean...

Ahhh, More about exploring what the thing we are identified with IS than just unidentifying with it... that's actually a lot clearer than any way ive heard it described before. Thank you for that too!

Palm Flipping Exercise
How is the movement controlled?

I believe we did this exercise before but can try again to see if I missed anything, or if something feels different.

I honestly don't know how or IF the movement is controlled. In direct experience it doesn't seem like it's controlled, but maybe that's missing some belief.

The word itself doesn't fit the feel of it - that even if there's reaction or influence of circumstance, it's not outright CONTROL. Like the hand moves when it's time to move, and it stops when it's time to stop. Nothing outright says what that time is. Theres both a sense that no "choice" is being made, but also that it's entirely free.

Does a thought control it?

No.
Theres often some sense of an alignment between thought and movement, but no direct control, no micromamagement. And even the alignment itself isn't really cause and effect, just a kind of anticipation or reflection, so no, a thought doesn't control it. Movement also happens without thought or any alignment at all, especially obvious in HOW it moves rather than IF it moves.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Way too often here the hand moves before the thoughts catch up. Makes no sense that a thought would make the decision, it can only narrate or describe it before or after, inaccurately.
If a "decision" is made I can't see it, can't track an accurate decision point.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Certainly no one and nothing, unless "the hand" counts but... that itself doesn't seem like a choice, just whatever is natural. Attempted it multiple times today, each time a "hand volunteered" without thought. It wasn't a choice, the exercise just started with one of them.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?

No, not at all. Nothing of the sort in direct experience.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,
I am sorry about this exercise. I forgot you already did it.

Here are the question we use to confirme you cross the gate.

The intent is to find out if there is any remaining identification with a separate self. Please keep the answer short.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

[SeanS]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. It appears in thought but it isn't real, never was, cannot be found in experience. Only in thoughts and unnoticed beliefs. Just another thought.

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

During exhaustion, thoughts and planning took over, building future ideas based on past memories. Connecting the two was the idea of self that experienced the past and will cause the future, attention bouncing between these thoughts until it was seen to all just be idle imagination, nothing corresponding with direct experience. Then there's just senses.

When a mistake happened recently, just some object dropped in a puddle, there was a momentary outburst of frustration, disappointment, self-blame... and in an instant it just vanished. What is there to blame for? Who is to blame? To what end? It was as if the world in which the object wasn't dropped was utterly destroyed, nonexistent. Nothing to compare "now" to. The discomfort passed without any grasping. No one to grasp it besides thoughts

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Feels like a relief. A lot of doubts and seeking came up recently but as soon as they are seen, everything becomes so simple, alive.
Both meditation and "normal" life have become less complex and confusing, life just happening. No need to "do" anything but be with it.
Past few days have been peaceful. Even with a lot of activity, there's barely any pressure.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

Uncertain. It was all kind of a mess, lots of highs and lows, storms of doubt and utter calm.
What probably pushed things the most was the inquiry about EXACTLY where the Self is experienced, where it has EVER been experienced, how its always just in thought.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

Just thoughts. Interpretations of the mind divorced from reality. Things simply happen, as far as can be seen. Interaction and reaction of everything to itself. Nobody "does it", thoughts just arise to misinterpret experience.

The body was aching. Thoughts came up with ideas about how "I" did this or that to make it so. The thoughts were noticed as just thoughts. Other sensations were noticed. The body moved, the aching stopped after a while, things just kept happening without anyone making them happen in experience.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Nothing in particular, as far as can be seen outside of thought.
There was indecision among family about where to go. Thoughts arose on their own, words were spoken, the body moved, "choices" happened but there was no sense of chooser, just movement. Just whatever came naturally, no different or separate to any of the senses. No resistance or pushing or pulling.

6) Anything to add?

Many thanks, to both you and the hidden guide reading over. Doubts will probably arise again sometime, and fade, and return... doesn't seem like it matters right now. Just thoughts and experience.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

I am waiting the confirmation of other guides that you crossed the non existance gate.

I will let you know.

There are facebook groupe, discussion in the forum and zoom meeting to support you deepening your exploration. You can find those informations on the forum.

I enjoy the zoom meetings organized by Vince. If you are interested let me know

I would love to keep this discussion alive (in a more casual format). If you feel the impulse, you can send me a private message.

Waiting for the confirmation.
Do you have any questions you want to ask ?

[SeanS]

.
Do you have any questions you want to ask ?

Hmmm.. there's still some curiosity about conceptual stuff, further inquiries, and things like your description of the path and how you prefer to deepen the exploration. But it's like that focus waxes and wanes too.

Mostly right now I'd love to know what this process feels like for you, how has your own experience changed? Or if there's some aspect or inquiry that are especially impactful for you, if you don't mind sharing of course!

Always interesting and useful to hear how someone else navigates this, what their best tools were. A lot of your explanations of unclear things were incredibly helpful and effective like that too.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

You have officially crossed the gateless gate.

Thank you for your beautiful answers! It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you through the gateless gate! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realization of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like. I will send you a PM with my detail and information.

"When the path to God end.
The path in God begins."

I also think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference. You can find information on the forum.

I recommend the Vince meetings:
________________________________________________
Meet up with Vince Shubert (For LU seekers & guides)
Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.
Meeting time:
Monday 6 am Sydney DAYLIGHT SAVING time – AEDT
One each Wednesday at 4pm (AEDT)
Saturday at 9pm (AEDT)
There is a Guide training one each Monday 5am Sydney DAYLIGHT SAVING time - AEDT
Please note that it's always the same time on the same link. Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
You can convert time zones here; https://www.worldtimebuddy.com
Click here to Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768...
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

[SeanS]

Thank you David, and everyone involved in LU!
It's funny how looking back so much of this process can seem absurd, incomprehensible, and full of intense emotions... and also totally natural, simple, easy and relaxing.

Regardless of what came up and whatever thoughts painted over it in the moment, it was really enjoyable, interesting and valuable - in large part thanks to your guidance. So thanks for being a part of it and supporting me through this.

Looking forward to checking out the zoom meetings and discussions when possible.

Still not sure about being a guide too, but curious to learn more about that as well and maybe try it out in time.