If there is no personal self, what is there?

[Kellycampb]

Wooooof, thank you for saying that. Okay, I’m feeling encourage! Let’s dive in.

Why do you expect that it to feel different?…Clear?? 

Oh, wow. Right. That makes sense. I guess it wouldn’t be any different. Just my awareness of it would be the only change, not the “experience” of the thing itself. I think that’s clear. Am I receiving what you’re asking me to?

Your answers present a mixed picture (looking and guessing) and I presume that you did answer them on the go (not doing all and then writing your observations). There are a lot of contradictions because of that.

I think you’re picking up on my confusion in general. My brain is a bit split these days and I’m never quite sure which version is in the lead… I did sit with these and this is where it landed for me.

So can a thought (i.e. “brain”) think and create patterns?

Ok…. Split again. My impulse is “no.” But, my brain, lol, I’m aware this is the issue, is telling me yes.

Can you train a thought to do things? Can thoughts do anything but “describe” what is happening?

No. Thoughts cannot do anything. They simply exist as a thought.

And what is this that trains the thoughts if there is no thinker and no “brain” (just more thoughts)

… I don’t know! I’m observing.. nothing. Nothing controls the thoughts or the brain. It just is.

How do you train them exactly (no assumptions please, just look and report!)? You cannot access the thoughts but you can choose and train them to come in a certain order and with certain content (happy/unhappy)?

You can’t train them largely because they don’t exist. They seem to exist by the nature of more thoughts themselves. But this second part, this is hard… I have had the experience of “training” thought to do patterned things… But how does that align with the inquiry we’re on???

a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

I’m looking.. and, no. I don’t identify a thinker, or an I. Which is surprising.

Why don’t you have control all the time? Why chose to have negative thoughts at all if it is in your control? If happiness is in your control why don’t you just think happy thoughts?

I don’t have direct answers here. Just the awareness that I have no reason or explanation or response.

simply there happy thoughts, and there are unhappy thoughts? And there are also thoughts saying how you are choosing to have these thoughts? LOOK! How are you choosing to have any kind of thoughts exactly?

The thoughts create the thoughts that then think they can control the thoughts, but its just another thought. Dizzying!

If different thoughts appear to replace others, then how is it your doing? It is just how thoughts are appearing, is it not? Is it possible that thoughts are just appearing in that “sequence” randomly and only another thought says that there is a sequence?

I guess it’s mot my doing. It’s just thoughts appearing as more thoughts? Even the “sequencing” is a thought…

Now when you look at this, do you find thought 27 has any knowledge of any of the other thoughts, let alone them all? It seems that way, but when we look closely, what is found?

No, they’re not directly tied, or conscious. They’re pieced apart and seemingly randomly placed to then cause the next one. Each is triggered to create more, but it’s not conscious.

 Is there a traffic cop directing thoughts or not? Or thought stream appears on its own?

No :) Thought - Thought.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

I think you’re picking up on my confusion in general. My brain is a bit split these days and I’m never quite sure which version is in the lead… I did sit with these and this is where it landed for me.

Well, the dilemma around the "brain" represents the two sources of “information” – learned stuff vs direct experience. For a long time the learned stuff was the only source so it makes sense that there will be some resistance to disregarding it completely and focusing on DE :)

Ok…. Split again. My impulse is “no.” But, my brain, lol, I’m aware this is the issue, is telling me yes.

OK… This is why we agreed to try leaving all previous knowledge (scientific, spiritual, etc.) behind and have the attitude of beginner’s mind.
How does the “brain” says “yes”? Does it speak? There are thoughts there, but how is the "brain" experienced on its own, separately? What in your DE reveals that the brain produces thoughts? Do you see a brain puffing thoughts? Or there are simply only thoughts appearing and the "brain'/'mind' is another label for thoughts?

Let’s examine “brain” the same way as the apple…

Taste labelled ‘brain’ is unknown :)
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘brain’ is known when seen in a picture.
Sensation labelled ‘brain’ is known (maybe when someone else’s brain is touched)
Smell labelled ‘brain’ is unknown (maybe if you smell someone else’s brain)
Sound labelled ‘brain’ is unknown
Thought about/of an ‘brain’ is known
However, is 'a brain’ actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘brain’ here, or just a thought ABOUT ‘brain’? Can ‘brain’ be found in actual experience?
I would add to reinforce ... How is it observed that the brain makes thoughts?

You can’t train them largely because they don’t exist. They seem to exist by the nature of more thoughts themselves. But this second part, this is hard… I have had the experience of “training” thought to do patterned things… But how does that align with the inquiry we’re on???

Is it possible that “this training” of “new patterns” is what we do here – just focusing on what is happening at the moment? Thoughts either reflect what is happening or regugitate old material. But does that mean that there is a trainer? Look! What could possibly be responsible for thoughts patterns? Or are they self-organised around the experience? And before you spin off being the focus-er, let explore focus too:
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
Is thought in control of attention?

I guess it’s mot my doing. It’s just thoughts appearing as more thoughts? Even the “sequencing” is a thought…

Great! But why “guess” when you can look???
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly
Are we still doing this???
Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

How does the “brain” says “yes”? Does it speak? There are thoughts there, but how is the "brain" experienced on its own, separately? What in your DE reveals that the brain produces thoughts? Do you see a brain puffing thoughts? Or there are simply only thoughts appearing and the "brain'/'mind' is another label for thoughts?

- It doesn’t “say” anything. The brain doesn’t even do. It triggers, thoughts appear. A “yes” or “no” appear as a thought experience.
- No voice. Thought is experienced as visual or sound.
- When I tap into the brain itself I feel only a weight, a space taken up by a physical something, being held by my neck and head.
- No puffing like the cartoons :)
- Yes, that’s a good day to put it. There are simply thoughts appearing and the “brain/mind” is another label for thoughts!

However, is 'a brain’ actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘brain’ here, or just a thought ABOUT ‘brain’? Can ‘brain’ be found in actual experience?

- A label, just a concept. In my experience anyway. If I was opening and touching brains, maybe it would be come a physical sensation, but for now, for me, it’s just an idea.
- Just a thought about “brain”
- No, no AE of brain

How is it observed that the brain makes thoughts?

Out of thin air.

Is it possible that “this training” of “new patterns” is what we do here – just focusing on what is happening at the moment? 

Yes, I can see that.

But does that mean that there is a trainer? 

Something is being trained by experience. Some kind of pattern. I’m not sure I experience a “trainer” being in charge or taking control.

What could possibly be responsible for thoughts patterns? Or are they self-organised around the experience? 

They’re self organized. The thing responds to itself.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

It moves by itself.

Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
Is thought in control of attention?

No, I don’t control it. It seemingly moves on it’s own. Thought seems to add attention and attention seems to add thought.

But why “guess” when you can look???

I’m not sure I’m fully getting “looking” yet.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

- A label, just a concept. In my experience anyway. If I was opening and touching brains, maybe it would be come a physical sensation, but for now, for me, it’s just an idea.
- Just a thought about “brain”
- No, no AE of brain

Excellent looking!!!

No, I don’t control it. It seemingly moves on it’s own. Thought seems to add attention and attention seems to add thought.

Now look, can the attention be separated from the thought? Is there a border that shows where the focus/attention stops and where the thought begins? You can repeat the looking with focus and seeing, or hearing…

- When I tap into the brain itself I feel only a weight, a space taken up by a physical something, being held by my neck and head.

Let’s explore sensations, body, head, neck…

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

I'm on an international flight and the wifi isn't working properly, so I'll need to wait till tomorrow to respond. I'll meditate on these prompts. Thank you!

[poppyseed]

Thank you for letting me know!
Safe flight!

[Kellycampb]

can the attention be separated from the thought? Is there a border that shows where the focus/attention stops and where the thought begins? You can repeat the looking with focus and seeing, or hearing…

Ok, yes I can see this. There is a border where thought intrudes on attention.

The can exercise…
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

The cold appears at thought in my mind. Then thoughts about the cold produce sensation in my fingers, a tightness in my stomach, and a concerned thought in my mind.

Chair exercise…
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Grouping these together because they’re all apart of the same realization. No. There’s no sense of this from inside the experience of the body sitting.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

This boundary is simply expressed by the pressure against the bench, the feeling of the ground on the bottom of my feet. But I am aware of having to define those areas of my body. “Oh, that’s feet.. that’s my bum…”

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

If I go deep enough, it’s a body. The my is a label I’ve attached to it.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

In my feeling experience, in DE, it leads me to feel that there is no inside or outside. There is a sensation of air on my skin, or cloth on the hairs of the body, but the experience of body remains the same inside, outside, and even around.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

My mind is at it’s limit here today. Body refers to physical experience. Actual experience of the body is heat, touching surfaces, materials, and sensations. The body can do… movements…. Experience emotions… send information to thoughts… That’s what I’ve got today. I’m aware there’s more depth but it’s not yet accessible to me.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly
Good efforts! I really appreciate your openness and determination in this inquiry!

Ok, yes I can see this. There is a border where thought intrudes on attention.

Really?? Please describe this border using the senses – can you touch it, smell it, taste is, hear it or see it??

The cold appears at thought in my mind. Then thoughts about the cold produce sensation in my fingers, a tightness in my stomach, and a concerned thought in my mind.

Can a thought produce a sensation? Think of “cold” now. Do you experience the same sensation as when touching the cold object? Compare the two sensations – the imaginary cold and real cold. Are they the same? Can a thought really do anything BUT describe what is happening? If that was possible we would be able to get wet just by thinking of a river :). LOOK carefully, is the thought “cold” necessary for the sensation to appear? Or the two of them (thought + sensation) appear simultaneously?
Also does the sensation have a location? You say the sensation is in your fingers… With eyes closed where exactly are your “fingers”? Are there two sensations – one of “fingers” and one of “cold” or one sensation labelled “cold fingers”? What is “tightness in my stomach” in DE? And finally:), can a thought be concerned or simply its content is about “being concerned”?

This boundary is simply expressed by the pressure against the bench, the feeling of the ground on the bottom of my feet. But I am aware of having to define those areas of my body. “Oh, that’s feet.. that’s my bum…”

Similarly… Are there two separate sensations – “pressure against the bench” AND “of the ground on the bottom of my feet” - OR one aka “bum on chair”??? Think of the apple exercise. Generally “bum” is a label referring to a sensation and colour, “chair” is a label also referring to colour. BUT when the “bum touches the chair” are their two sensations or one? FEEL!

My mind is at it’s limit here today. Body refers to physical experience. Actual experience of the body is heat, touching surfaces, materials, and sensations. The body can do… movements…. Experience emotions… send information to thoughts… That’s what I’ve got today. I’m aware there’s more depth but it’s not yet accessible to me.

What is “heat” in DE (seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, and/or thinking)?
Please describe “heat, touching surfaces, materials” as DE, using the cup of coffee example when I asked to break up daily activities in DE:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

The actual experience of “body” is a thought, which points to/describes sensations and colours (apple example). So can a word (letter combination)/label/thought move, do, feel, experience, send information to thoughts (how exactly)??

You can explore "body" as per the apple example:
Taste labelled ‘body’ is experienced :)
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘body’ is experienced
Sensation labelled ‘body’ is experienced
Smell labelled ‘body’ is experienced :)
Thought about/of an ‘body’ is experienced
However, is 'an body’ actually experienced? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘body’ here, or only sensations, colour, and a thought ABOUT ‘body’? Can ‘body’ be found in actual experience? Can a label move and do things?

Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

I've been very sick the last two days. If I am able to I will respond this afternoon. Apologies for the delay.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly
I hope you feel better soon! Thank you for letting me know!
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi kelly
I hope you are feeling much better!
Are you still intersted in this inquiry? It's been a while.
If you still are, please reread the whole thread and do the exercises before coming back. I feel the momemntum is a bit lost so you need to get it back

Love
Rali