Questioning beliefs

[Brane]

thanks!

How does it feel to not find any sense of self? Does it remain purely intellectual, or have you gained deeper insights, perhaps with a sense of certainty about this realization? Please share your thoughts, as they will guide our further work. I apologize for not being able to communicate over the last couple of days. We will arrange a meeting soon.

Branimir

[TeaEnjoyer]

Hello Branimir,

I apologize for not being able to communicate over the last couple of days. We will arrange a meeting soon.

It’s no problem at all, I hope everything is allright and your son is feeling better. Looking forward to the meeting.

How does it feel to not find any sense of self? Does it remain purely intellectual, or have you gained deeper insights, perhaps with a sense of certainty about this realization?

Well, at certain points in the inquiry it felt like my beliefs were loosening, but there hasn’t been a shift. Definitely no certainty. So I would say things are still on the intellectual side.

Please share your thoughts, as they will guide our further work.

I can’t find a controlling entity that influences the thoughts, sensations, sounds, etc., but it still somehow feels like things are happening to me. With thoughts, even though I can’t see how I control them, even though I can’t see any point in which a “me” makes the decision to make them appear, still I feel like I can intentionally think about things that interest me, and things that need my attention. It feels like I am doing the thinking, even if I can’t find “me” or the mechanism by which I can control thoughts.

I wonder if it is a matter of intensity in my inquiry. As it is, I put aside some time for contemplation each day, and throughout the day I try to question my beliefs if I remember to. But I still waste time with distractions as well. I feel like I start to lose motivation or get irritable if I do too much inquiry and I fear if I give all my free time to questioning beliefs I’m gonna get depressed.

Not all the time, but sometimes in my more doubtful moments I have thoughts such as: “Of course you are not going to find a self when you look. It doesn’t mean it is not there. For example, the eye can’t see itself, nor the mechanism by which it does the seeing, but it still exists”. I realize this is on the intellectual side but I thought it is worth mentioning. It is not that I completely believe this thought, but it keeps coming up, almost as if it trying to make me doubt things. Other similar thoughts come up as well sometimes, like : “It is just too difficult to see the intricacies of how attention moves and how thoughts come up, you just don’t have the attention power necessary to have any insight from investigating these.” Again, not that I completely believe this thought, but I must be affected by it at some level because it keeps showing up.

It also feels like a cage sometimes. I am here, looking at thoughts and beliefs that make me believe I am a separate self. As I am looking I feel like a separate self is looking. If sensations come up that feel like they are associated with “me” I look into them, all the while feeling like a separate self is looking at the sensations. If I decide to look into the one looking, then it is still a separate self trying to find the one who is looking. Like an endless loop. If there is a negative thought, I didn’t choose to create that thought, but it feels like “I” have to deal with it. If I look at who is the one who has to deal with it I find nothing. But throughout all of this, it feels like a negative thought came up, then some separate self felt that it had to deal with that, so that separate self decided to look for itself, and the separate self couldn’t find anything. I can’t find a self anywhere yet anywhere I look I feel like I am looking.

[Brane]

Definitely no certainty. So I would say things are still on the intellectual side.

Okay, thanks for sharing.

I can’t find a controlling entity that influences the thoughts, sensations, sounds, etc., but it still somehow feels like things are happening to me.

Don't worry about that. The feeling that things are happening to you is part even of much deeper stages of non-duality. In some traditions they call it the "I am" sense, in the fetter model is the 8th fetter. It's rare or I would dare to say impossible for the selfing to drop away entirely with a single shift or insight.

still I feel like I can intentionally think about things that interest me, and things that need my attention

I see your point. However, decisions happen before the thought "I did that" emerges. You can notice this in every moment of your life. The body reacts instinctively; conscious thought isn't required. This pattern persists from the moment you wake up: you didn't choose to wake; it just happened. Similarly, thoughts arise spontaneously; they aren't consciously summoned. There is a reaction and then the thoughts are taking credit for that, right?

When you read this post right now, do you have to exert effort to read the text, or does reading simply happen when you observe it? Similarly, do you have to exert special effort to type the answer, or does typing somehow happen? My point is that the body simply knows what to do because it has learned to do that. The body, with its complexity, is incredibly intelligent, and for some reason, it does not require a self to operate.

Do you put any effort to breathe? To hear the sound? Or to perceive the visual field?

Now, observe all of this, and go back to this "I" that allegedly does all of this? This is your koan, this is your MU. Look for it like your life depends on finding it:)

But I still waste time with distractions as well. I feel like I start to lose motivation or get irritable if I do too much inquiry and I fear if I give all my free time to questioning beliefs I’m gonna get depressed.

That's doubt in action. When this happens again, simply ask yourself why this particular thought holds such power to convince.

“Of course you are not going to find a self when you look. It doesn’t mean it is not there. For example, the eye can’t see itself, nor the mechanism by which it does the seeing, but it still exists”.

That's too much intellectualization, seeking to understand all of it. My suggestions is to simply notice when such a story appears, and let it go. You are not interested in this. While intellectualization can sometime bring some result and especially activate our curiously, which seems is in your case, it can be a distraction as well. Find some balance.

If there is a negative thought, I didn’t choose to create that thought, but it feels like “I” have to deal with it.

You do not have to deal with that ultimately. What if you entirely surrender to the fact that you cannot do anything about the thoughts? That you have zero power over that process. Try that.

[TeaEnjoyer]

I will work with and respond to your last post but in the meantime I want to mention something cause it seems relevant. Yesterday late at night I was watching a youtube video, I was very sleepy and wasn’t even paying attention to the video. There was a moment which peaked my interest which was that the images in the video seemed like it was happening in this “space”. Then I noticed that at that moment I wasn’t very identified with anything. Thoughts, sensations in my body, the video sounds and images all were there, everything was the same as it was. Retrospectively thinking, I think what was different was that I just wasn’t very identified with anything and everything was just there happening in that space. I was still a bit sleepy and distracted, I wasn’t intensely aware of the present moment or anything, but it was much easier to see what you mean by no control. Trying to explain it like this it sounds more interesting than it was. It wasn't interesting but then when the thoughts came about "maybe this is it" then I was more interested. I wouldn’t have even noticed it but then I thought “wait, maybe this is what they are talking about”. I don’t know if I am fooling myself but it seems relevant to what you are talking about. Does what I am saying sound in the right direction? I am in doubt because I was expecting to know for certain when there is a shift but this was so subtle that it could have gone unnoticed. Also all I am saying seems feels a bit like I am creating a story about it.

[Brane]

It sounds like you had a subtle insight, a glimpse of emptiness. It does not matter much if it is a subtle or whatever insight, so don't worry too much about the quality of the insight.

Then I noticed that at that moment I wasn’t very identified with anything. Thoughts, sensations in my body, the video sounds and images all were there, everything was the same as it was.

I like this part. Now, keep orienting to the senses, they are the gateway:

In the sound ONLY the sound
In the feeling ONLY the sensations

Direct, direct, direct.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Hello again,
I noticed it has been a few days since I posted so I’ll give a quick update.

I’m still not comfortable with saying there is certainty about some of my realizations. I still feel there are beliefs and assumptions left to be questioned. But in general identification with thoughts and actions are weakening and it is getting easier to see how a “controller” isn’t necessary for most things. I am slowly starting to see that this is the case with actions that require will power as well. For example, this morning I was running, and towards the end I was getting really exhausted but I wanted to push myself to run a little more. I could see how thoughts were arising in my head, negotiating, motivating, thinking about results. How the body was moving and tensing. I was able to see that the movement of the body and these thoughts were happening by themselves and that I wasn’t making them happen.

I was also able to see, in a few instances, how identification with thought happens after the thought already appeared. For example, I had the thought “I guess I care about this person’s opinion about me” when thinking of someone. After this thought had already happened I immediately assumed that there was a me that cared. But in this instance I was able to see how the thought automatically appeared and then the belief followed it. The belief happened after the thought already appeared. I can’t see this all the time though.

So overall it feels like the belief in a separate manager entity is loosening but I still need to let go more.

[Brane]

Beautiful.

I still feel there are beliefs and assumptions left to be questioned.

There will be many more....

But in general identification with thoughts and actions are weakening and it is getting easier to see how a “controller” isn’t necessary for most things.

great, this is also an insight, and you will know better than me or anyone how things are unfolding in your case. This is your path, and your intuition is your best teacher, friend, guide. Very nice.

I was able to see that the movement of the body and these thoughts were happening by themselves and that I wasn’t making them happen.

Nice insight. Everything is conditioned and intertwined. We do not make things happen.

But in this instance I was able to see how the thought automatically appeared and then the belief followed it. The belief happened after the thought already appeared.

This is great!!
This is how the sense of me solidifies itself. This is already a great insight. No need to do more than just see it as you described it. Just allow yourself to see it, and that's it. Let go of anticipation and expectation.

I can’t see this all the time though.

That's fine. This is not about seeing it all the time. What you are doing is already to the point. Simply keep doing that.

What I would suggest now, make sure to embrace openness to whatever is happening. Make sure to welcome thoughts, emotions, sounds, people, resistance, pain, all of it. If you find struggling to apply openness in this way, embrace that as well. Embrace frustrations, whatever arises. And rest in that, rest in the present moment, without attempting to change it. Let be everything as it is.

[Brane]

After this thought had already happened I immediately assumed that there was a me that cared. But in this instance I was able to see how the thought automatically appeared and then the belief followed it.

Now, simply explore this belief again. Whenever possible, try to observe how it arises. Once you get the hang of it, explore further:

Is there really something here beyond this belief?
Is there a real me?
Where am I beyond this belief?

Work with whatever pointer works for you better.

Remember to have fun and let go anticipation.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Hello Branimir,
Sorry I haven’t written in a couple days. Some new things are happening in my life and I am trying to get used to a busier schedule. For the past few day I haven’t been able to see the belief arising after the thought as clearly. Usually when I catch myself in thought the belief has already happened and the body is contracted a bit. So I try to see and remember if I chose that thought, but also I try to feel the sensations without judgement. It is difficult though, cause with this busier schedule I usually forget to be mindful and when I am mindful it feels too little too late.

Also, I tried being more aware during social situations but this is difficult. I feel like if I am aware of the persons face, or the sound of what they are saying, or just my thoughts in reactions to the person, then I can’t follow the conversation well.

Let me know your thoughts and suggestions.

[Brane]

No need to worry about that.

This isn't about striving to be mindful all the time. It's not about imposing mindfulness on every moment. Just be mindful when it feels appropriate. By doing so, you simply direct your awareness to what is truly occurring, without relying solely on thoughts.

Even amidst a busy schedule, simply take a moment. It's sufficient to allow the present moment to exist as it is, even if only for a few seconds. Just acknowledge your immediate experience, right here, right now: sensations, sounds, smell, taste, visual field. That's all it takes. In doing so, we orient the mind towards the present moment.

Let's schedule a one-on-one meeting in the coming days? How does that sound? We could clarify things which cannot be clarified through the chat. I'll send you a private message about it.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Hello,

So, I just writing to touch base. As you suggested in the video call I am focusing more on the sounds this week. It's nice to do and sometimes in formal meditation it brings a pleasent stillness. Outside of formal meditation I focus on the sounds whenever I remember to every once in a while. I also am mindful of other sensations when they are dominant (like sensations in my leg when I'm climbing stairs).

I haven't found anything that emotionally triggers me so far. There were times where I had slight anxiety about something or times where I just didn't want to do things I had to do but it didn't feel emotionally charged enough to work with.

That is it for now.