Need to stop going in circles on this, if this forum is a way out then I am pleading for help

[Windaway]

little corrrection in here:
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

[SeanS]

I should mention that before reading this, a lot has come up this morning after considering the last inquiry and noticing. Still unsure how much of it is just thought / ‘logic’ / belief…

Mainly, it’s clearer that not only is “Sean” not in direct experience now, it never was and never will be. It’s always in thought and belief, It IS a thought / belief.
But those are still bought into so easily, and it’s like there’s this… MOUNTAIN of accumulated and habitual beliefs about it to be sifted through, seen as just a belief in the present - but is that even really necessary?

The “gap” is different too. As you’ve said, it’s not really a gap… Still doesn’t feel “always there” in experience but right now it’s FAR more stable, accessible, enduring. Maybe that’s temporary though.

the “levels” of conceptualizations…
Is this clear to you?

Yes. That would put the separate self in the third category? Just a concept for communication, doesn’t point to anything “real”? But believed to be in the second category, or maybe even the first, like it’s always a primary part of experience…

That which want to “get it” is mind/thought. Thought will never get it. So don’t worry much about that part.
The mirage does not have to disappear for you to KNOW that it is not real.

That’s… so funny somehow. All of this. It’s so anticlimactic, like “Oh that’s it? Why didn’t you just say so?” - even though it’s been said a hundred times, and there’s still more to look into, still a lot of beliefs and doubts and such.

I hope that helps.
If it’s to “theorical” or “intellectual” let me know.

It’s fantastic. That explanation with “exist” vs “real”, the etymology, the dragon - all very clear and simple suddenly.
Thank you so much. Such a relief to read all of this…

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Red.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

No, doesn’t correspond, just refers to a concept that isn’t in direct experience.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Not associated with the experience, no.
“Overlay” works, but it’s not like it ACTUALLY covers anything up, it’s just… misdirection? The direct experience is still available, untouched. (Maybe that's its own mess to untangle, whether the "Direct Experience" exists when it isn't IN direct experience...)
There’s the direct experience of red, shapes - and the label ITSELF (or the label when USED as a label instead of just color & shape, or sound) is part of the conceptual, thought-based perspective that doesn’t cover up or diminish the direct experience in any way.
There’s just a habit to look into the conceptual instead of the direct.

And that applies to the Self? It never ‘covers up’ or diminishes the actual, or the ‘gap’, there’s just a habit to look into and believe thoughts instead of the direct?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Haha, without the correction it would affect the redness!

But no, labels have no effect on reality. The only change in direct experience would be the shape of red, not any “attribute” of the redness based on the conceptual labels.
Labels are only used to lead into thought. Direct experience is unaffected regardless of if their ‘direction’ is followed or not.

And the Self, Sean, is another label? In a sense.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

Awesome, I can see in your answer and questions that some shift has taken place.

That’s great. Stay in that gap and more will be reveal to you over time. In theory there is no path, no time, no space but in practice is a process and it take time to undo this MOUNTAIN of believes, habits, repress emotion, etc…

I will not answer the questions you asked. Now that you found that gap. I am convinced that clarity will come more and more naturally. Plus, an answer that comes from you own noticing, from your own direct experience is far more meaningful and powerful than anything I can say.

If you are struggling with some specific aspect our you have a burning question. It is also true that with a little pointer we can win a lot of time. Let me know what feel right for you.

Now that you are seeing clearly. We can investigate the effect of this realization.

Exploration:
Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[SeanS]

If you are struggling with some specific aspect our you have a burning question. It is also true that with a little pointer we can win a lot of time. Let me know what feel right for you.

Thank you. None of the questions from before are particularly urgent, just curiosity or clarification. I’ll make sure to ask if there’s a question that seems relevant for practice or I get stuck on, and trust your intuition on what might be important to note.

How is the movement controlled?

The “control” always seems tacked on in future or past thoughts. “I’ll move the hand” “I moved it”. Just flat thoughts.
In direct experience there isn’t any sign of control.
The contrast between the belief of “agency” and the direct experience is very odd, layered. Like I keep looking for the control, it isn’t there, but there’s a CERTAINTY that “I can move the hand however I want, right now”.
And yet there obviously isn’t control or ‘I’ for what arises in that “wanting” too! So silly.

Does a thought control it?

No… At first it seemed like even without verbal thoughts, there was knowledge that the hand will move before it does, and so there wasn’t really any “surprise” compared to other senses.
But even that isn’t quite right - there’s no EXACT knowledge of how the hand will move, it’s also a kind of approximation or thought, divorced from reality. And the hand can move without THAT too.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Absolutely not.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

The thoughts, when even noticeable, often feel a little slower than the action itself. More like narration than a “decision”. I can’t notice any thought making a decision, at least not a verbal or obvious one.
It feels like the body reacts to the thoughts at times, and the thoughts react to the body, but it’s not exactly “control”. Nothing enforces it.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

The left hand just moved. It wasn’t even questioned or considered. No choice or chooser.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. There’s reactivity of sorts, and it seems like it can be reactivity to mind, but there’s no separate individual in the process - outside of occasional beliefs that almost seem unrelated to this whole thing now?

The mind is calm right now but there IS some kind of dissonance as I write this, it just feels okay now.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

I sense that you have found this "place of noticing" and you can see clearly now.

Here are some question that will support me to confirme that you cross the non-existant gate:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

[SeanS]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Not in direct experience, not in reality. Only in thoughts and beliefs, in illusion.

There’s hesitation with questions like these, and with all this talk of “shifts” and “gates”.
The “mirage” as you called it isn’t gone. The thoughts are still believed in until they’re seen as thoughts, which is still most of the time. There’s still habits that indicate a self, seem supported by it, but there is no Self to be found when looked for directly, never was. Just thoughts about it.

Basically, it doesn’t feel like or believed to be a “shift” yet. The Self was never there in the first place, only the belief of it was… but the beliefs still convince, when not looked at directly.
Doesn’t seem complete or settled yet, but maybe that’s just how it is right now. Maybe that’s also a belief.

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

On a walk in nature yesterday, there was a lot more stillness in the mind and senses than usual when standing still. Simpler experience.
But during movement, thoughts still became the focus, the perspective, temporarily believed in, and ideas about “What I should do next, where I’ll go, what I did, What I’m doing on this walk” were primary. The filter through which experience was perceived. Nothing at the object level changed, but experience became more contracted, less real, more focused on thoughts and ideas that lead into each other and rely on each other, disconnected from the senses and what was actually happening. Thoughts trying to assert control or solidity on experience through the idea of Self.
When noticing those thoughts as just thoughts arising outside of any volition, again there were just senses and momentary flat thoughts that don’t interrupt, but not for long.

Life hasn’t dramatically changed. Even before this was clear, thoughts haven’t been fully believed in (but still somewhat) for a few years now since previous changes in perspective. This seems like a continuation of that process. The Self was still a consideration before, but not a BIG one recently, not most of the time.
Now maybe it’s even less of an issue, just another persistent thought, but there’s still echoes.
Cooking while lost in thoughts about "ME" and "what I want to do", then noticing those thoughts, and just noticing the hands wash vegetables for a while. No need to engage with the thoughts or figure them out when they're noticed. Easy.

Occasionally there is a sudden drop into just noticing, the “gap”, thoughts going still. Or random waves of pleasurable sensation in the body. The noticing also comes more easily now, stays longer, less affected by thoughts. Today there was a kind of blissful calm from just sitting with sensations. Comes and goes.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Despite all the doubt / hesitation about any “shifts” and such, there is a lot of spaciousness and relief. Thoughts seem far less problematic, less sticky, less important. The senses feel more open, inviting. Focus on direct experience was a “rarity” before, a “reward from meditation” - right now it’s far more natural, when the mind is calm at least. It’s hard to describe but it feels like there’s less “complexity” a lot of the time. Not always.

There’s also a lot of dissonance at times, thoughts arising, being believed in, and then seen as part of a paradigm of Self that doesn’t correlate with reality, all very quickly. Even while writing this. There’s occasional tension between these two very contrasting perspectives, in mind and in body. One is far more primary and real, obviously encompasses the other - but the other is far more “usual”. Sometimes even more comfortable? Again, not always.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

This is a no or yes question: Can you find a separate self in your experience?
This is a no or yes question: Is there a separate self?
Without referring of past experiences nor thoughts, tell me everything you know about Sean
Without using past nor future sentence can you describe Sean in detail?

This seems like it pushed things towards that “it exists (appears) but it isn’t real” point, forced the issue. But what still tripped me up after this one was “time” thoughts.

There was somehow a belief that I may not see the Self in Direct Experience now, but I might one day! And maybe I saw it before! Maybe I’m just missing something!
Obviously all thoughts and avoidance of direct experience, “time” always is.

The morning after that inquiry, those beliefs became far clearer, and actually looking at memories and thoughts about the past helped it click. even though that’s just thoughts about thoughts… There simply wasn’t any trace of it, all thoughts lead to more thoughts, interpretations.

That made it clearer when looked for again - It was always in thought, always in belief. It’s never in direct experience, it fundamentally can’t be. It IS a thought, it is a belief.

Should also note - the moment that ACTUALLY felt most impactful, most like an ‘epiphany’, is right near the start, on a belief that almost felt ‘unimportant’ at first.
I asked for clarification about “The Sequence of Thoughts”, and you just told me to look.
It’s clearer now that a huge barrier was an ingrained DISTRUST against direct experience, total reliance on thoughts “as knowledge” and on guidance from others.

Seeing that not only the thoughts could just be looked at and noticed to have no sequence or connection, but that it was almost kinda EASY and obvious, was a huge surprise! Inquiry never felt quite like that before, so immediately “rewarding” and direct. It made the entire process seem doable, natural.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

That’s… all thoughts. I don’t really know what makes things happen, or how it works, they kind of just do? Thoughts are part of that whole interplay but they don’t CAUSE it.

Describing them though… Decision is like the thought that arises (without control or cause, undecided), refers to past-thoughts and says “I did that”, or to future-thoughts and says “I’ll do this or that”. Doesn’t even really touch direct experience, but pretends to.
And uh, the rest are all pretty much the same. Some more grandiose in wording of thought than others. All refer to an imaginary “I” that makes something happen.
Intention somehow sounds subtlest, most primary… might be used to describe a state in the mind or body even without referring to an “I”, but still a thought.

Example: The “I” thought couldn’t even really ‘control’ or ‘decide’ the thoughts it identifies with or the body it identifies with - The hand moves, the thoughts arise, there’s seemingly interaction but no “levers” or “buttons” that activate or choose anything - but still “ownership” is taken of those movements in past-thought, or of the possibility of those movements arising in future-thought.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Tricky. Feels like the kind of question that would be answered VERY differently in other contexts. Can imagine saying “I’m responsible for my actions and choices, but not for the results.” to anyone else.

But action just happens, movement happens, “choices” are just thoughts that aren’t chosen, senses happen, thoughts arise, noticing happens and attention ‘moves’ or arises on things…
Is there anything left to be ‘responsible’ for?

Went to visit family in the hospital just now. There was a feeling of vague discomfort at times, like there were no “right words to say”. At times the mind was active, thoughts coming up with things to talk about, and at times it was still, there was just noticing, just paying attention to the surroundings and company. Neither were explicitly chosen by anyone (Thoughts may have narrated the transitions at times though). Words came out when they did, even if in the moment it sometimes seemed like there was an “I” speaking or choosing what to say.

All actions and “choices” came of their own rhythm and whatever patterns / stimulus influenced them.
I was just aware of it, and awareness was also just happening on its own.
I don’t know, there are only thoughts about this, nothing in direct experience. Everything just happens and reacts to itself maybe, nothing responsible for anything. Maybe that’s also just a belief.

6) Anything to add?

Writing this raises a lot of interesting emotions! The whole “this isn’t a big deal, nothing REALLY shifted or changed, this isn’t it” beliefs next to the realization that none of this would’ve been seen or written this way even a week ago… Dissonance and confusion but also excitement, surprise, amusement.

Maybe this IS a more significant change than thoughts can “get” as you’ve said. Or maybe it's all misunderstood. No idea.
It seems like that matters less and less, like ANY thought or conclusion about this (including some of these answers) is kind of pointless. Just thoughts.

That said, if there’s more, anything that might’ve been skipped or misunderstood, anything else that can be done for this process, any other belief or exercise to check, any notes or recommendations from you - would love to hear it!

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

Your answers shows that you still have expectations unseen. So let’s get into that.

In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 5 following questions:

what your expectations are about this exploration?
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

[SeanS]

Yeah… expectations. Just more thoughts being bought into. Maybe all of this is just treading water.

what your expectations are about this exploration?

There were expectations about deepening this somehow… Looking at them now they don’t quite make sense. As if there are still just a few sneaky hidden beliefs that keep the illusion going, just some hooks to remove or some issue to fix and everything will be crystal clear. Like there’s more to be done. Always more “doing”. This belief seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

How will life change?

There are thoughts about a “fuller” change of perspective with no “mirage”, no back and forth between direct experience and fully believing the Self, even momentarily. Stability, cohesion. Something that feels utterly undeniable, so obvious that the Self is a thought that any “I” thought is immediately seen as such, gains no momentum in the mind.
Ironically buying into this expectation just reinforces that “Self that isn’t there yet, has to get there".

There are some thoughts about “external” changes occasionally but those are more easily seen as just idle imagination.

How will you change?

Nothing? The belief itself doesn’t matter, doesn’t need to change or not change, only how it’s seen matters.

What will be different?

A big part of the doubt appears to be about how “twisted” the experience is right now, the opposite of what was expected in a way.

In “normal, usual everyday experience” - the Self and the habitual thoughts are still front and center, everything is just the same MOST of the time.
But when stopping and noticing, only in “hindsight” when looking at memories and seeing the thoughts there, it’s clear that the everyday experience was under a filter of thoughts that don’t correspond with reality.

So it’s like this is all still thought-based most of the time! Just seen through thoughts, not “in the moment”.

Obviously that’s not true at all when just in the gap, just noticing, but that’s still comparatively rare, especially during mundane activity.
So the expectation of difference is that it’d be more instinctual, less reliant on thought. Experience will be more direct, the Self won't be bought into as easily.

What is missing?

It’s like there’s this seeking for something that “fully resolves all doubts, identification with beliefs, confusion”, when that ITSELF is an identification with doubts, beliefs, confusion, and all that’s “needed” is to notice them.

Even writing that, there’s still a kind of rejection, and it’s also based on thoughts, memories, beliefs.
That this isn’t the “end” of this process, that there’s something deeper, realer, has to be.

But even if that’s true, is it just answered by noticing now? Or is there more helpful inquiry

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,
Thoughts are master illusionist and powerful.
Thoughts will never stop being what they are, and they will never stop doing what they do.
But, and is a big BUT, we have reality on our side. All we have to “do” is to notice what is here and now. We simply need to Look at direct experience.



Feedback:

There were expectations about deepening this somehow… Looking at them now they don’t quite make sense. As if there are still just a few sneaky hidden beliefs that keep the illusion going, just some hooks to remove or some issue to fix and everything will be crystal clear. Like there’s more to be done. Always more “doing”. This belief seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Because of the nature of what we are and the nature of experience there is no “end” to unfolding and clarity. Only thought is seeking conclusion. Are you a thought?

There are thoughts about a “fuller” change of perspective with no “mirage”, no back and forth between direct experience and fully believing the Self, even momentarily. Stability, cohesion. Something that feels utterly undeniable, so obvious that the Self is a thought that any “I” thought is immediately seen as such, gains no momentum in the mind.
Ironically buying into this expectation just reinforces that “Self that isn’t there yet, has to get there".

Everything is here and now. You are always in contact with direct experience there is nothing else. Thought is a phenomenon IN direct experience. What thought is ABOUT is an illusion.
Look at this image:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/853854410593129658/

The same image (which is only color) can be interpretate by thought in two ways. The face of a man or a man playing flute on a rock.
BUT it doesn’t change WHAT you are looking at which is only pattern of color.
The man plying flute isn’t real.
The face of a man isn’t real.
Colors are real.


The point is not to help you move from one interpretation to another. The point is to see experientially that you are ONLY seeing color in your direct experience. Thought interpreted those colors but the interpretations are irrelevant. What is relevant is what is HERE in you DIRECT EXPERIENCE which is the colors.
Thought will try to convince you to switch from a bad interpretation to a better interpretation. From little Sean who live a miserable life in a body doomed to die. To a big spiritual Sean who is perfect in every way and immortal. From a little man playing flute to a big man face.
But both are irrelevant.
What is relevant is what is HERE in your direct experience. The colors.

A big part of the doubt appears to be about how “twisted” the experience is right now, the opposite of what was expected in a way.

In “normal, usual everyday experience” - the Self and the habitual thoughts are still front and center, everything is just the same MOST of the time.
But when stopping and noticing, only in “hindsight” when looking at memories and seeing the thoughts there, it’s clear that the everyday experience was under a filter of thoughts that don’t correspond with reality.

So it’s like this is all still thought-based most of the time! Just seen through thoughts, not “in the moment”.

Obviously that’s not true at all when just in the gap, just noticing, but that’s still comparatively rare, especially during mundane activity.
So the expectation of difference is that it’d be more instinctual, less reliant on thought. Experience will be more direct, the Self won't be bought into as easily.

There is no “everyday experience” nor “mundane activity” nor “normal”.
There is only what is HERE and NOW. If thought label it normal, boring, repetitive, mundane is irrelevant because those are thought ABOUT what is happening. YOU CAN NOT TRUST THOUGHT to tell you what is REALITY.

It’s like there’s this seeking for something that “fully resolves all doubts, identification with beliefs, confusion”, when that ITSELF is an identification with doubts, beliefs, confusion, and all that’s “needed” is to notice them.

Even writing that, there’s still a kind of rejection, and it’s also based on thoughts, memories, beliefs.
That this isn’t the “end” of this process, that there’s something deeper, realer, has to be.

But even if that’s true, is it just answered by noticing now? Or is there more helpful inquiry

Thought will never be convinced. You will never resolve confusion by thinking about it.
The clarity is noticing confusion and doubt (which are thoughts). And reorient your attention into what is here and now: direct experience that is perception (the 5 senses) and sensation.

Exploration:
Mind labelling experience
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

[SeanS]

Only thought is seeking conclusion. Are you a thought?
Thought will never be convinced.

Right. Only thought is seeking. That cuts through that whole mess, clarifies why even writing it felt so uncomfortable at times.
Even the “struggle” between two “views” is just a thought. There’s just this. Thank you.

**Exploration:**
Mind labelling experience

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second one felt truer to experience

2. What is here without labels?

Sensation, thought

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Describe it, but never perfectly, and never touching or affecting it

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

There was more tension in the first part at times, more discomfort and restlessness. Muscles were clenched occasionally until noticed.

The second felt more relaxing, almost like falling asleep. Calm. Sensations were more stable.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

The habit to focus on thought and their interpretations can be so strong that we forgot how to look at direct experience.

Once we start to notice the dicieving nature of thought we can start to look at direct experience easily. Simply asking what is there beside thought?

And there is A LOT more to notice besides thoughts. Like an infinity more.

Lets dive into that infinity :

Do you agree that in your direct experience you have a perception from an outside world “through” the 5 senses. You have perception of an inner world “through” the sensation (interoception) and thoughts.

If you agree with the above you have to agree with the fact that you are never in DIRECT contact with a world, a body nor brain. You are ONLY in direct contact with your experience.
You are in contact with the 5 senses.
You are in contact with the sensation/interoception.
You are in contact with the thoughts.
But never are in direct contact with a world, a body or a brain.

Yes?

Now, let’s tacle doubts that is probably already at work in you.

This is not theory nor intelectual masturbation. It is a fact. I want you to look in your experience and tell me if that is true or not for you. Explore this in your meditation room but also at work, at school, walking on the street, parcs, city mall. Check if that is true while talking to people, friends, sitting on the toilette, washing the dishes.
Are you aware of ANYTHING other that what is in your direct experience?


Once you have felt this as a fact for you.
Answer those question below.

WHERE are the experience of smelling, tasting, hearing, seeing and touching happening?

WHERE is the experience of sensation happening?

WHERE is the experience of thought happening?

where is your experience happening?

[SeanS]

If you agree with the above you have to agree with the fact that you are never in DIRECT contact with a world, a body nor brain. You are ONLY in direct contact with your experience.
Yes?

Yes, that’s how it feels, when not believing a thought or conception. Even then that’s also in the direct experience, just the direct experience of that illusion, of not seeing a thought as a thought.

Are you aware of ANYTHING other that what is in your direct experience?

No… It’s obvious that both the illusory content of thoughts and the experience of noticing a thought are in direct experience, but there still are a whole lot of different beliefs in that illusion, warping perception.

WHERE are the experience of smelling, tasting, hearing, seeing and touching happening?
WHERE is the experience of sensation happening?

checking one by one in direct experience.

Sight is HERE, it IS direct experience. Locationless. Just sight. Easily apparent.
There’s still some conceptual or perceived connection to the eye sensations but that goes away with focus on only sight.
There’s a fluctuating perception of “distance”, even if it’s always here, even when just observing the visual field as a whole. At times there’s that belief that it’s being seen “from within”, that “sense of me” sensation behind the eyes. Not always.

Touch / Sensation… is there a difference outside of thought, conceptions of objects and an outside world?
In direct experience, there’s just sensation, that usual perceived “location / distance / position” fades. Not as clear when other senses are noticed too… feels more fragmented, more separated that way. It can very quickly go from “all just here, positionless” to appearing like “this sensation here and that one is there”.

Smell is tricky… Still clearly in direct experience, just appears, changes, passes. Harder to notice as just “here” somehow.

Taste also feels a lot more tied to the tongue location? More distance and positioning there.

Sound gets REALLY tied up in that thought of external space, distance, positioning. Still always here, but there’s far more thoughts habitually involved.

All sensations are in direct experience, there's a "distanceless, spacelessness" to them, but it’s not always clear, thoughts mislead there a lot. There may be unnoticed illusory distance even when seeing that? It’s all very dynamic when checked, thoughts shifting perception a lot.

WHERE is the experience of thought happening?

The sense of it changes a lot. The content of thoughts is obviously full of illusions of when and where, irrelevant, but deceiving.

When noticing thoughts as thoughts, there’s often a kind of position / location feeling to them, somewhere in the head region. Close or in that sensation that’s like the “sense of me”? They get tied to physical sensations as if they’re “there” but it also isn’t quite “real”, just appears that way?

Observing them now, they simply appear in direct experience, locationless, distanceless, sizeless, “here” or no where in particular. Not always clear, many illusions.

where is your experience happening?

No answer seems quite right. Here? Every “where” that I experience is already in it, so Everywhere? Nowhere in particular?

It’s just the experience. Direct experience is always in direct experience, any perceived sense of distance, position, location, where, is also in direct experience.
The thoughts of “where” are very easily deceptive though. That “sense of me” that gets so tied up in noticing / observation comes up a lot, but other illusions too.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

Feedback:

Are you aware of ANYTHING other that what is in your direct experience?

No… It’s obvious that both the illusory content of thoughts and the experience of noticing a thought are in direct experience, but there still are a whole lot of different beliefs in that illusion, warping perception.

So, you are aware of “things” outside you direct experience?
Beliefs ARE thoughts isn’t it?
Illusions are bottomless.
If I write your answer more simply it would look like this;
There is still a lot of thought in thought.
Talk to me about this warping. In what way is your experience of seeing warped? And the experience of sensing warped? How? By what?

All sensations are in direct experience, there's a "distanceless, spacelessness" to them, but it’s not always clear, thoughts mislead there a lot. There may be unnoticed illusory distance even when seeing that? It’s all very dynamic when checked, thoughts shifting perception a lot.

When you write : “not always clear” it make me believe that you are expecting some great experience or some way your life will change drastically. I’m under the impression that you have some expectation about some absolut answer. Am I wrong?

where is your experience happening?

No answer seems quite right. Here? Every “where” that I experience is already in it, so Everywhere? Nowhere in particular?

EXACTLY!
This is IT.

The thoughts of “where” are very easily deceptive though. That “sense of me” that gets so tied up in noticing / observation comes up a lot, but other illusions too.

I have no aim at dissolving the ”sens of me”. Do you have this objective in mind? If so why?
I do have the objective to support you in seeing that there is no separate self.
I think the confusion is not the sense of me but what you think this me is. Or with which “me” you identify moment to moment.
Let’s first be clear about this.

Exploration :
You agree that you are not your sens, sensations nor thoughts. Yes?

So give me 3 quality of yourself.
(I am aware that none of them will be perfect nor exact. But do you best)

[SeanS]

So, you are aware of “things” outside you direct experience? Beliefs ARE thoughts isn’t it?

If I write your answer more simply it would look like this; There is still a lot of thought in thought.

Talk to me about this warping. In what way is your experience of seeing warped? And the experience of sensing warped? How? By what?

Its not that anything is outside direct experience, its that theres often that misleading overlay on it, not seen the way it is.

The self thoughts are one, but also the view of space, an external world, distance, time, all of these fluctuate in intensity of appearance, clearly not as rigid and "factual" as they once seemed but conceptual and based on beliefs. But the beliefs still often overlay direct experience, mislead

If at times physical sensation or sight feels immediate, here, and at time it seems as though there are objects in the distance or body parts “below”, is that not a perception warped by belief? Even if direct experience is the same, its not seen clearly through the overlay of belief until beliefs are noticed.
Is that a misunderstanding of things?

When you write : “not always clear” it make me believe that you are expecting some great experience or some way your life will change drastically. I’m under the impression that you have some expectation about some absolut answer. Am I wrong?

Was referring more to the changes in perception, the instability of the experience described, and that some senses feel more direct than others - but can’t say you’re wrong either.
Theres interest in the possibility of seeing through the belief of self more clearly, more persistently. Not necessarily something absolute, but whatever is available from this inquiry.

You agree that you are not your sens, sensations nor thoughts. Yes?
So give me 3 quality of yourself.(I am aware that none of them will be perfect nor exact. But do you best)

I agree, but then what quality is there to give that doesn’t refer to those thoughts or senses? To some thoughts of the past or an idea of “Sean”? Or just describing some passing qualities in experience / perception?

In direct experience.. theres qualities that could describe the knowing of it maybe, inaccurately, but i’m not sure that counts as “myself” or anything. What IS that which knows??

Theres directness, immediacy

Theres that “always here” quality, never gone

A quality of knowing that doesnt change, neutral, while the senses and thoughts are dynamic?

None of these really feel like they refer to “me”. Not sure what qualities would, if there are any.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

I feel the need to clarify the orientation or intention of the guidance in LU. Because I feel that you are far more down the path than “crossing the gate” which is the purpose of LU guidance. I also feel that you are working on certain aspect of your experience the same way that I am. So, I do not feel comfortable in guiding you on path that I have not yet completely discover.

To “cross the gate” is needed only to see the illusion of the separate self and some aspect connected to this belief. Which is the 1 step I wrote below. But this is only a beginning and far, far for beings the ends of it, as the revelation never end.
I like the sentence:
When the path to God end.
The path in God begins.

In this revelation process some shift can be recognized:

Disclaimer: Everything stated below reflects solely my personal experience of this process. It does not represent the views of LU or any other guide. Furthermore, it is not accurate or precise, but I hope it proves to be insightful. It's important to note that WHAT IS lacks any inherent structure, hierarchy, or direction, so any attempts to impose such characteristics should not be regarded as definitive or factual. Furthermoer we never leave one state to step to another, they all existe in us at the same time and we explore all of them simultaneously.

1. Discrimination (seeing what you are not): This stage involves exploring direct experiences, thoughts, and the sense of individuality.
Discerning and understanding the aspects of oneself that are not truly representative of one's core identity or true nature.

2. Integration (Therapautique work): This stage involves reintegrating imprints, repressed emotions, and traumatic energy.
Acknowledging and integrating past experiences and emotional baggage into one's Being.

3. Inclusion (Discovering the quality and nature of Reality): In this stage, one dissolve experience into WHAT IS, deepening beyond individual perceptions or constructs.
It's about embracing the totality of existence and recognizing the unity of all there is.

4. Resting in WHAT IS, as WHAT IS: This stage one rests in the essence of reality itself.
This is beyond description and understanding but not beyond reach.
I feel that you have seen thought the 1 step but there is still some doubts and beliefs to be clear up.


Please let me know your thoughts about that.

Feedback :

The self thoughts are one, but also the view of space, an external world, distance, time, all of these fluctuate in intensity of appearance, clearly not as rigid and "factual" as they once seemed but conceptual and based on beliefs. But the beliefs still often overlay direct experience, mislead

I understand the undoing of time and space is fascinating. Even if there is great shift, I do not think those perceptual shifts stay for long. My personal teacher who clearly went “all the way” told me that having a “normal human perception” was the way he experienced most of the time.
Even so I do not believe that this exploration end either.

Was referring more to the changes in perception, the instability of the experience described, and that some senses feel more direct than others - but can’t say you’re wrong either.
Theres interest in the possibility of seeing through the belief of self more clearly, more persistently. Not necessarily something absolute, but whatever is available from this inquiry.

Yes, it will feel, seems, looks more clearly over time and at the same time there will be a premonition that more is about to come. With that premonition the impulse to explore.

For example, don’t your are more clear now than when you started?
At the same time, you feel that there is SO MUCH MORE to unravel right?

WHAT IS is literally infinite. So exploration never end even though it get clearer.
Is even stranger than that, the more clearer it gets, the more it feel that there is to “clean”.
That make sense to you?

In direct experience.. theres qualities that could describe the knowing of it maybe, inaccurately, but i’m not sure that counts as “myself” or anything. What IS that which knows??

Theres directness, immediacy

Theres that “always here” quality, never gone

A quality of knowing that doesnt change, neutral, while the senses and thoughts are dynamic?

None of these really feel like they refer to “me”. Not sure what qualities would, if there are any.

Aren’t you always here?
Aren’t you the one that never change?
What you are is inconceivable and unfindable. Nevertheless, here you are.

You are nothing (not a thing) disguise in everything (every thing appearing).
Describe what you are is impossible. That is why the path of NON-DUALITY is to show you what you are not.
This phrase is very interesting:

None of these really feel like they refer to “me”.Not sure what qualities would, if there are any.

Thoses questions had the purpose to show you exactly that.
Nothing defines you. But you do not need a definition, right?
You do no need intermediaries like, sense, perception, nor thoughts to be what you already ARE. Right?