LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the persona, my character is a construct of the ongoing stream of thoughts and emotions. It' not a fixed thing, it' s rather a changing procedure. There is nothing to identify with. My thoughts are coming from nothing and are vanishing into nothing. They are ongoing. It is not my goal to stop them, but to observe them.
What are you looking for at LU?
To share experiences, with somebody, who has maybe more experience and is an authentic person. To help me see my bunderies, false preconseptions. Anything which is hiding under the radar, and I can't observe it and it is hindering me in anyway.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To share experiences, with somebody, who has maybe more experience and is an authentic person. To help me see my bunderies, false preconseptions. Anything which is hiding under the radar, and I can't observe it and it is hindering me in anyway.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I (still?) didn't had the sensation of falling apart, leaving the character behind, "dying", as many people are describing this experience, call it what you like. I don't know if such a thing really exist, I just read and hear the experiences of others. My state is: I had a realization that the character and persona is constructed by thoughts, memories and projections. This became an inherent sensation. And it got stronger through self-enquiry. I see the world with other eyes, my meditation got deeper, I can focus more and connect more to people, sense them more, thanks to the realization and the detective work, the self-enquiry, through which I understood the mechanism of thoughts and feelings better. Since I'm aware of them and I don't identify with them, I can be in a state where the monkeymind is slower, more silent. "I'm falling out of myself." I can sit in equanimity for a long time. I had also body sensation with energy, chakraopening, auaraseeing etc. Nevertheless, it is a pulsation, the ongoing change between this state and the focused "normal" state, in which the thoughts are more vivid and the feeling of the separate self is stronger. But the sensation of witnessing is also there always (this was not the case before the realization. It was identification instead.). I feel a lot of love and compassion towards creatures and even objects. Nevertheless, I don't have the sensation, of "no-one", of "melting together with the wall". I still sense the world as a separate being, as a watcher, doer. Why I'm meditating and spend time at all with any kind of teaching, incl. non-duality, is to have that kind of "meltedness", bliss, satchitananda, consciousness, wholeness, oneness, call it as you like, to see everything as it is, without the filter, the noise. I hope from this process, this"conversion" to become an even more loving, feeling, compassionate entity and to love the creatures as they need to be loved, to love even when I'm (?) not loved. To see them without the noise of my still existing ego in the background. Which I'm aware of and I try not to identify myself with it, but still it is there. I hope there is a state where it vanishes completely, with all it's doubts, struggles, fears, and false hopes.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
Sharing
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebestyen, welcome to Liberation Unleashed! My name is Rowena, and I am happy to be your guide.
What would you like me to call you?
1. Here at LU we are exploring of the idea of the separate self. This is an enquiry based on direct experience (DE) of the senses. In order to keep the momentum going with this enquiry, please post your responses at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know.
2. For this process to work you have to be focused on your DE (direct experience) of what's actually happening and describe your findings without relying on thought, imagination or memory. Long-winded analytical and/or philosophical answers are best avoided as they can hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
3. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading etc. for the duration of this investigation. Put all your effort and attention in to seeing what is, as it is, with 100% honesty. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.
4. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Right now I am asking you to be willing to leave everything you have read about and learned from others together with all your hopes and expectations and start afresh with this enquiry. Is this OK with you?
Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all the questions.
Please look at this thoroughly for a full day, repeatedly (aim for 20-30 small lookings/investigations) before replying (of course, you don't have to count it :)
What is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life?
When you say or think 'I', what do you refer to with the word 'I'?
Please make sure that the answers don't come from your intellect or from any learned knowledge, but from directly observing yourself in the midst of your busy, everyday life.
ALSO:
1. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)
2. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Please answer questions individually, as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue.
With love,
Rowena
What would you like me to call you?
1. Here at LU we are exploring of the idea of the separate self. This is an enquiry based on direct experience (DE) of the senses. In order to keep the momentum going with this enquiry, please post your responses at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know.
2. For this process to work you have to be focused on your DE (direct experience) of what's actually happening and describe your findings without relying on thought, imagination or memory. Long-winded analytical and/or philosophical answers are best avoided as they can hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
3. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading etc. for the duration of this investigation. Put all your effort and attention in to seeing what is, as it is, with 100% honesty. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.
4. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
We read and hear about the many experiencers of others who have undergone or who are undergoing this process and it is very natural for the mind to slip into comparison in order to "see where we are". You have already written clearly about your expectations:I (still?) didn't had the sensation of falling apart, leaving the character behind, "dying", as many people are describing this experience, call it what you like. I don't know if such a thing really exist, I just read and hear the experiences of others.
Nevertheless, I don't have the sensation, of "no-one", of "melting together with the wall". I still sense the world as a separate being, as a watcher, doer. Why I'm meditating and spend time at all with any kind of teaching, incl. non-duality, is to have that kind of "meltedness", bliss, satchitananda, consciousness, wholeness, oneness, call it as you like, to see everything as it is, without the filter, the noise. I hope from this process, this"conversion" to become an even more loving, feeling, compassionate entity and to love the creatures as they need to be loved, to love even when I'm (?) not loved. To see them without the noise of my still existing ego in the background. Which I'm aware of and I try not to identify myself with it, but still it is there. I hope there is a state where it vanishes completely, with all it's doubts, struggles, fears, and false hopes.
Right now I am asking you to be willing to leave everything you have read about and learned from others together with all your hopes and expectations and start afresh with this enquiry. Is this OK with you?
Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all the questions.
Please look at this thoroughly for a full day, repeatedly (aim for 20-30 small lookings/investigations) before replying (of course, you don't have to count it :)
What is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life?
When you say or think 'I', what do you refer to with the word 'I'?
Please make sure that the answers don't come from your intellect or from any learned knowledge, but from directly observing yourself in the midst of your busy, everyday life.
ALSO:
1. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)
2. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Please answer questions individually, as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue.
With love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
Please find my answers below.
After this shift/change in the perspective and paradigm has happened, I would call it a pulsating experience. I’m falling out and then return again in the perspective of the observer. Since some days, I had a shift again, which brought me back into the old state. The new sensation didn’t vanished, but I have more difficulty, to dwell in that state of lesser to almost no thought, peaceful, “empty” equanimity. Now more thoughts are appearing and I feel anxiousness again more. I don’t know why, but I just go with it. I keep up the 1-2 meditations per day and I’m going on with my life. Nevertheless now it seems, as the last approx. 3 month were only a dream… But then if I can get back into that state, it feels natural.
This is constantly changing. So there is no fix structure of “I”.
I would say, it is a stream, where the water is constantly changing, flowing. I’m the water (thoughts, emotions connected to the thoughts, and the mythology build around emotions), but also the riverbank (observer/consciousness) and also the stones in the riverbed (character traits). So in other words, I’m the relative and absolute, and the state I’m in also depends on the necessity. If I’m around people, I tend to fall into the absolute state. My focus is sharp, I feel the body, less thoughts, I’m focusing on the people around me etc. Then again, when I’m alone, I tend to dwell more in thoughts. And when I have to concentrate on something, there is stress or something to be solved, then I can totally forget about any other state, than the focused, problem solving one. These states/perspectives are constantly changing. On the same day I can be a person, who is lost in his thoughts, is anxious about the future, and there can be a empty, observer perspective, which just lays back and enjoys the show, feels joy, doesn’t forces his expectations on reality, what happens, happens, there is gratitude and peace. So, it’s a bit of a rollercoaster. And since some days, as I wrote above, it seems, as if I fell out of the honeymoon, or I'm just having a bad phase, but old feelings are back again, I spend much more time in the persona-perspective. It’s a bit irritating, on the other hand, I try to just go with it, and see what happens. My automatic self-enquiry hasn’t changed. I see the thoughts, emotions through a filter. If there is a sudden bigger amplitude of feelings, the question of “Who/what is feeling this?” arises automatically, and then the feeling of “nobody is there” is coming up. After this, the strong feeling gets less and less, or it disappears completely. There is no identification with it.
ps.: I also had a 3rd eye opening in Jannuary. Pressure on the forehead for days, vivid dreams and I started to see aura. Then this is also gone now. I feel a strong pressure in my forehead and the back of the head sometimes during meditations, but in “normal” state the pressure in the forehead is gone and I need much more time to see the aura. I don’t know what to do with this. Can I train it, or should I just leave it? Is this a sign for something, or is this a byproduct only?
Please find my answers below.
Yes.Right now I am asking you to be willing to leave everything you have read about and learned from others together with all your hopes and expectations and start afresh with this enquiry. Is this OK with you?
Till November last year, there was only one perspective: The one from the perspective of the individual, the persona.What is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life?
After this shift/change in the perspective and paradigm has happened, I would call it a pulsating experience. I’m falling out and then return again in the perspective of the observer. Since some days, I had a shift again, which brought me back into the old state. The new sensation didn’t vanished, but I have more difficulty, to dwell in that state of lesser to almost no thought, peaceful, “empty” equanimity. Now more thoughts are appearing and I feel anxiousness again more. I don’t know why, but I just go with it. I keep up the 1-2 meditations per day and I’m going on with my life. Nevertheless now it seems, as the last approx. 3 month were only a dream… But then if I can get back into that state, it feels natural.
A bundle of memory, joy, trauma etc. from the past and hopes, visions, fears of the future. And the never-ending stream of thoughts, which are in contact with the hopes and fears, sadness and joy of the past and future and are triggered by the senses.When you say or think 'I', what do you refer to with the word 'I'?
This is constantly changing. So there is no fix structure of “I”.
I would say, it is a stream, where the water is constantly changing, flowing. I’m the water (thoughts, emotions connected to the thoughts, and the mythology build around emotions), but also the riverbank (observer/consciousness) and also the stones in the riverbed (character traits). So in other words, I’m the relative and absolute, and the state I’m in also depends on the necessity. If I’m around people, I tend to fall into the absolute state. My focus is sharp, I feel the body, less thoughts, I’m focusing on the people around me etc. Then again, when I’m alone, I tend to dwell more in thoughts. And when I have to concentrate on something, there is stress or something to be solved, then I can totally forget about any other state, than the focused, problem solving one. These states/perspectives are constantly changing. On the same day I can be a person, who is lost in his thoughts, is anxious about the future, and there can be a empty, observer perspective, which just lays back and enjoys the show, feels joy, doesn’t forces his expectations on reality, what happens, happens, there is gratitude and peace. So, it’s a bit of a rollercoaster. And since some days, as I wrote above, it seems, as if I fell out of the honeymoon, or I'm just having a bad phase, but old feelings are back again, I spend much more time in the persona-perspective. It’s a bit irritating, on the other hand, I try to just go with it, and see what happens. My automatic self-enquiry hasn’t changed. I see the thoughts, emotions through a filter. If there is a sudden bigger amplitude of feelings, the question of “Who/what is feeling this?” arises automatically, and then the feeling of “nobody is there” is coming up. After this, the strong feeling gets less and less, or it disappears completely. There is no identification with it.
ps.: I also had a 3rd eye opening in Jannuary. Pressure on the forehead for days, vivid dreams and I started to see aura. Then this is also gone now. I feel a strong pressure in my forehead and the back of the head sometimes during meditations, but in “normal” state the pressure in the forehead is gone and I need much more time to see the aura. I don’t know what to do with this. Can I train it, or should I just leave it? Is this a sign for something, or is this a byproduct only?
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebastyen,
Great to hear from you. Should I call you Sebastyen or by another name?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
Let's have a look at Expectations and any underlying beliefs that might be present:
1. How will life change when you realize there is no "i"?
2. How will you change?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What do you not want to happen?
5. What is missing right now that you expect to have when there is a shift?
With love,
Rowena
Great to hear from you. Should I call you Sebastyen or by another name?
Yes, this pulsating experience is what happens. This short video also confirms what appears to be happening:After this shift/change in the perspective and paradigm has happened, I would call it a pulsating experience. I’m falling out and then return again in the perspective of the observer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
Yes!This is constantly changing. So there is no fix structure of “I”.
Just let this be for the moment, no training. If the pressure arises notice the sensations in the forehead, if auras appear, simply notice auras appearing.I also had a 3rd eye opening in Jannuary. Pressure on the forehead for days, vivid dreams and I started to see aura. Then this is also gone now. I feel a strong pressure in my forehead and the back of the head sometimes during meditations, but in “normal” state the pressure in the forehead is gone and I need much more time to see the aura. I don’t know what to do with this. Can I train it, or should I just leave it? Is this a sign for something, or is this a byproduct only?
Let's have a look at Expectations and any underlying beliefs that might be present:
1. How will life change when you realize there is no "i"?
2. How will you change?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What do you not want to happen?
5. What is missing right now that you expect to have when there is a shift?
With love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
First of all, thank you for your time!
Thank you for the link. Funny, I just found her yesterday. I can resonate with this very much right now. I’m living it, so to say.
Before I come to answer your beautiful questions, I want to mention three topic. If you don’t want to connect with these thoughts, or you don’t have time, it’s fine. So here it is:
First topic:
I’m a practical guy. I always looked at things from a higher perspective. And asked myself, what sense does it have, what is it good for. Does it serve a higher purpose, or not. I tried to live my life according to this. I left the 9-5 corporate madness, as soon as I could and started a bio-farm. Now I’m turning the farm into a retreat centre and I’m on the way to become a hopefully authentic helper. I’m studying family constellation, coaching and soon I will become a men’s circle facilitator. On one hand, this is just happening in a strange way. Everything is enfolding itself. On the other hand, I still have the illusion of choosing, making decisions etc.
Why I’m writing this? The reason I shared this with you, is that I try to see enlightenment, altered states, cleaner mind, realization, awakening etc. (I know there are million ways to interpret this words) in the same way. What is it good for? Maybe it’s a romantic way of looking at this whole topic. But for me the path and message of the bodhisattva way was always a great motivation and a good reason for doing this. (Nevertheless I also feel, that there is no choice in this.)
But if I listen to the neo-advaita guys, where the message is, that this whole story is neither good nor bad for anybody, since there is nobody and everything is just happening, I get confused and also a bit angry. They say, that this is only a message, it has no use and it has no role in helping anybody. If I listen to my intuition, there is also some kind of coldness, almost inhuman feeling, which is coming through, when I see these people, although I like when they laugh like maniacs . But it can be, that this is the ultimate truth and it is just my self-defense system, which is projecting this negative feeling upon these persons, who teach this way. What do you think of this? I was for a long time involved in zen buddhism, where we chanted every evening the 4 bodhisattva vows and the whole message was, that you are not doing this only for yourself, but for every creature. This idea resonates with me. It is also my experience, that when I’m nowadays with people surrounded, I tend to fall into this blessed emptiness and I can focus much more on them, without labels and the buzzing of the self. I ask better questions, and I’m really interested in them, even if the person on the surface wouldn’t be an interesting one for the self. And the reactions are also quite interesting. People are opening to me in a beautiful way, they tell me really a lot about themselves, although we just met some minutes ago. And they are also astonished by this. Maybe they feel, that in that moment, there is no me/ego to whom they are talking to, just ears and presence? So this kind of loving, accepting presence gives me a good reason for this whole journey. Nevertheless, if it wouldn’t be like this, it would unfold itself anyway… What are your experiences with this?
Second topic:
Is meditation necessary for awakening? Is there a causal correlation? Does quantity matter? As mentioned, I come from a zen background, where it is a unquestionable fact, that meditation is the way. There is a path, and on this path you can evolve through meditation. Most of the time, they mean non-doing/awareness meditation. And there are lot of teachers, who teach this. I listened to John Butler some days ago, and he is also emphasizing this, that he meditated 60 years, and this is why he is on that “level”, where he is (he doesn’t use the word level). Also my zen master, who is meditating since approx. 30 years, is still participating in the 3 month retreat every year, where they sit approx 9 hours. According to this, there is a path and you walk it with effort/work. There is a seeker, who can reach enlightenment, if he is a good boy/girl, and sits a lot. I somehow got very frustrated after a while because of this. I think, that this shouldn’t be like this. I feel, that meditation is helping a lot to experience some states and also to stay in those. But on one hand quality matters more for me, than quantity, and on the other hand after a while you meditate also, if you are off the cushion (coming back to the breath all the time/self-enquiry non-stop). And for me it’s just not logical, that you have to spend major part of your life in front of a wall meditating, just to see through the layers of the ego, the self-hindering patterns and being able to function as a loving creature. Meditation is a very good tool, but sometimes I have the feeling, that people are just shifting the persona, from a non-spiritual one, to a meditator-persona. And they are searching and searching for the pure consciousness lifelong. This aspect I like in neo-advaita, that they see this, but they don’t offer anything instead, just the satsangs.
I like this concept the most: Meditation is a tool, which increases the chance of an accident.
What are your experiences/thoughts about this topic?
Third topic:
As I mentioned before, I’m on the way to become a helper, to work with people. I’m doing the waking up/cleaning up phase parallel. I went to therapy, participated in family constellation, psycho-drama and free dance/authentic movement and bodywork a lot in the last years. Beside this I’ve meditated, I lived in a zen monastery, and studied non-duality. After this shift in autumn last year, I have a problem with some of this ways. And became a big question mark, how to help people, how to point to the truth.
With some of these techniques I can still resonate, like family constellation, which is a very intuitive way to see some patterns in your life and their source. Also body related therapy/dance can work for many. I have problems with the more verbal ways, like therapy and psycho-drama e.g., where both the client and the therapist get’s fascinated with the story. And they talk and talk about it, they relive it. It is pure time traveling. I don’t say it is useless, but it works with the persona and the story, and sometimes I have the feeling, it increases the identifications with the self, with the story. I know that there are levels (there are not, but I don’t know any better word), in consciousness. You have to help the people on the level they are. So you can’t go around and shout in everybody’s face, that there is no self… Although it is hard to withstand sometimes… Usually I have this urge, when I see this regression models, where everybody becomes a time traveler and is talking from the past, reliving the pain, the trauma. I don’t say this is completely wrong, but it should somehow mix with the pointing to the truth. But how do you do it? How do you share this? You have to be “there”, you have to be open for this kind of message. Otherwise, the security system of the self won’t let it through. Many times, when I try to share this, people are falling asleep, or get surprisingly angry. So how would you integrate this message and still help the persona? How to combine the relative and the absolute in helping others? They should somehow understand that the past is gone, that the person who experienced the trauma, the pattern etc. is not anymore. It is just a story. Like when in the soap opera Dallas, Bobby Ewing died, half of the women in the world couldn’t sleep. But who has sleeping problems, who has anxiety 40 years after this? Probably nobody. But because of the things what happened to us 40 years ago, because of our own soap opera, we can still be fucked (sorry, but that’s the case), a whole life time long. I know that trauma related pain and angst is not that easy to explain. I feel that there is a lot of pain stored in the body. But you know, what I mean? What do you think about this?
I hope I can cut myself loose from all those patterns, fears, deeply rooted thoughts and mistrust. Most of all the thought, that it is possible that things go wrong, that I can fuck up things, and there are happenings, which has no meaning, sense, which are just bad to the bone. (aka. mistrust in life)
It would be nice to have a better focus, less thoughts, more trust, acceptance, love and empathy. Only this… Ah, yes and clearer intuition of course. Did I miss anything? :)
First of all, thank you for your time!
Thank you for the link. Funny, I just found her yesterday. I can resonate with this very much right now. I’m living it, so to say.
Sebi is fine.Great to hear from you. Should I call you Sebastyen or by another name?
Before I come to answer your beautiful questions, I want to mention three topic. If you don’t want to connect with these thoughts, or you don’t have time, it’s fine. So here it is:
First topic:
I’m a practical guy. I always looked at things from a higher perspective. And asked myself, what sense does it have, what is it good for. Does it serve a higher purpose, or not. I tried to live my life according to this. I left the 9-5 corporate madness, as soon as I could and started a bio-farm. Now I’m turning the farm into a retreat centre and I’m on the way to become a hopefully authentic helper. I’m studying family constellation, coaching and soon I will become a men’s circle facilitator. On one hand, this is just happening in a strange way. Everything is enfolding itself. On the other hand, I still have the illusion of choosing, making decisions etc.
Why I’m writing this? The reason I shared this with you, is that I try to see enlightenment, altered states, cleaner mind, realization, awakening etc. (I know there are million ways to interpret this words) in the same way. What is it good for? Maybe it’s a romantic way of looking at this whole topic. But for me the path and message of the bodhisattva way was always a great motivation and a good reason for doing this. (Nevertheless I also feel, that there is no choice in this.)
But if I listen to the neo-advaita guys, where the message is, that this whole story is neither good nor bad for anybody, since there is nobody and everything is just happening, I get confused and also a bit angry. They say, that this is only a message, it has no use and it has no role in helping anybody. If I listen to my intuition, there is also some kind of coldness, almost inhuman feeling, which is coming through, when I see these people, although I like when they laugh like maniacs . But it can be, that this is the ultimate truth and it is just my self-defense system, which is projecting this negative feeling upon these persons, who teach this way. What do you think of this? I was for a long time involved in zen buddhism, where we chanted every evening the 4 bodhisattva vows and the whole message was, that you are not doing this only for yourself, but for every creature. This idea resonates with me. It is also my experience, that when I’m nowadays with people surrounded, I tend to fall into this blessed emptiness and I can focus much more on them, without labels and the buzzing of the self. I ask better questions, and I’m really interested in them, even if the person on the surface wouldn’t be an interesting one for the self. And the reactions are also quite interesting. People are opening to me in a beautiful way, they tell me really a lot about themselves, although we just met some minutes ago. And they are also astonished by this. Maybe they feel, that in that moment, there is no me/ego to whom they are talking to, just ears and presence? So this kind of loving, accepting presence gives me a good reason for this whole journey. Nevertheless, if it wouldn’t be like this, it would unfold itself anyway… What are your experiences with this?
Second topic:
Is meditation necessary for awakening? Is there a causal correlation? Does quantity matter? As mentioned, I come from a zen background, where it is a unquestionable fact, that meditation is the way. There is a path, and on this path you can evolve through meditation. Most of the time, they mean non-doing/awareness meditation. And there are lot of teachers, who teach this. I listened to John Butler some days ago, and he is also emphasizing this, that he meditated 60 years, and this is why he is on that “level”, where he is (he doesn’t use the word level). Also my zen master, who is meditating since approx. 30 years, is still participating in the 3 month retreat every year, where they sit approx 9 hours. According to this, there is a path and you walk it with effort/work. There is a seeker, who can reach enlightenment, if he is a good boy/girl, and sits a lot. I somehow got very frustrated after a while because of this. I think, that this shouldn’t be like this. I feel, that meditation is helping a lot to experience some states and also to stay in those. But on one hand quality matters more for me, than quantity, and on the other hand after a while you meditate also, if you are off the cushion (coming back to the breath all the time/self-enquiry non-stop). And for me it’s just not logical, that you have to spend major part of your life in front of a wall meditating, just to see through the layers of the ego, the self-hindering patterns and being able to function as a loving creature. Meditation is a very good tool, but sometimes I have the feeling, that people are just shifting the persona, from a non-spiritual one, to a meditator-persona. And they are searching and searching for the pure consciousness lifelong. This aspect I like in neo-advaita, that they see this, but they don’t offer anything instead, just the satsangs.
I like this concept the most: Meditation is a tool, which increases the chance of an accident.
What are your experiences/thoughts about this topic?
Third topic:
As I mentioned before, I’m on the way to become a helper, to work with people. I’m doing the waking up/cleaning up phase parallel. I went to therapy, participated in family constellation, psycho-drama and free dance/authentic movement and bodywork a lot in the last years. Beside this I’ve meditated, I lived in a zen monastery, and studied non-duality. After this shift in autumn last year, I have a problem with some of this ways. And became a big question mark, how to help people, how to point to the truth.
With some of these techniques I can still resonate, like family constellation, which is a very intuitive way to see some patterns in your life and their source. Also body related therapy/dance can work for many. I have problems with the more verbal ways, like therapy and psycho-drama e.g., where both the client and the therapist get’s fascinated with the story. And they talk and talk about it, they relive it. It is pure time traveling. I don’t say it is useless, but it works with the persona and the story, and sometimes I have the feeling, it increases the identifications with the self, with the story. I know that there are levels (there are not, but I don’t know any better word), in consciousness. You have to help the people on the level they are. So you can’t go around and shout in everybody’s face, that there is no self… Although it is hard to withstand sometimes… Usually I have this urge, when I see this regression models, where everybody becomes a time traveler and is talking from the past, reliving the pain, the trauma. I don’t say this is completely wrong, but it should somehow mix with the pointing to the truth. But how do you do it? How do you share this? You have to be “there”, you have to be open for this kind of message. Otherwise, the security system of the self won’t let it through. Many times, when I try to share this, people are falling asleep, or get surprisingly angry. So how would you integrate this message and still help the persona? How to combine the relative and the absolute in helping others? They should somehow understand that the past is gone, that the person who experienced the trauma, the pattern etc. is not anymore. It is just a story. Like when in the soap opera Dallas, Bobby Ewing died, half of the women in the world couldn’t sleep. But who has sleeping problems, who has anxiety 40 years after this? Probably nobody. But because of the things what happened to us 40 years ago, because of our own soap opera, we can still be fucked (sorry, but that’s the case), a whole life time long. I know that trauma related pain and angst is not that easy to explain. I feel that there is a lot of pain stored in the body. But you know, what I mean? What do you think about this?
Life won’t change. The experience of it will. Or not. :)1. How will life change when you realize there is no "i"?
I don’t know. I hope, that my intuition can evolve. That I can see things more clearly for what they are. That I can see reality without labeling it. I see the labeling process now, but I can’t stop it. I just don’t identify with them anymore. This is a huge step in my life.2. How will you change?
I hope I can cut myself loose from all those patterns, fears, deeply rooted thoughts and mistrust. Most of all the thought, that it is possible that things go wrong, that I can fuck up things, and there are happenings, which has no meaning, sense, which are just bad to the bone. (aka. mistrust in life)
Less feeling of separation and being more unite with everything. A kind of deepening of empathy/compassion. Loosing the buzz in the background, the scream of the patterns. (I’m not enough. I can’t make it. Something bad is going to happen, lack of self-confidence, existential fear etc.etc.) I see them now, and I can sit with them, but still they have deep roots in my personality (?), or at least this is the feeling of it. The first automatic thought is in many cases something negative (see above). I want to let myself fall, to surrender completely to what is going to happen in my life and in the life of my beloved ones. I came a long way in this, but anxiety still can rise. I can’t completely forgive. Or let’s say, I’m not able to rest in forgiveness constantly. I still feel anger many times towards my ex-wife, with whom I got divorced 3 years ago. In altered states I can see the whole reason behind everything, but still in my “normal” state I can be triggered so easily, it’s painful to watch. At least I stopped to hurt myself or being ashamed of this. Second big step. It would be great, if the stories of the ego, would just stop. They are funny to watch (e.g. anytime I have a understanding/experience of something spiritual, the movie starts to play, in which I tell people about this, I play the guru etc. and several other version of this.) I see those movies, I laugh about them, I even hug them, but they still take a lot of energy and they are littering my brain and causing “sleepwalking”.3. What do you want or expect to be different?
I don’t want anything to happen. I “just” want to evolve, to get rid of the layers of this entity, which are holding me back, to enjoy life at fullest, to surrender completely and to be something which can radiate this flow, this love, acceptance and find the right ways to transmit this, to help other beings, to get out from suffering and enjoy this time here and be grateful for it. I’m this already, but let’s say, I’m still the beta version :)4. What do you not want to happen?
There is a lack in concentration, in focus. Maybe this is the reason I can’t enter jhanas. Maybe my practice is not ideal. Most of the time, when I sit between 30-60 minutes, I try to squeeze everything in it, I don’t stick with one method. For example, I don’t stay with the breath only for 30 minutes. I start with it, then I concentrate on the surrounding, meanwhile I try not to lose the breath. Then I switch to open-eyed object focusing, and trying not to lose the breath and the other senses. So I try to „get” all of it. To sense everything clearly, body sensations, breath, object, the coming and going of the thoughts. Usually this is my practice. Sometimes I’m also doing meta mediation.5. What is missing right now that you expect to have when there is a shift?
It would be nice to have a better focus, less thoughts, more trust, acceptance, love and empathy. Only this… Ah, yes and clearer intuition of course. Did I miss anything? :)
Re: Sharing
Oh, I just realized, that I missed the word NOT in the 4. question...
Sorry, I will come back to that.
Sorry, I will come back to that.
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebi,
Thanks for your beautiful sharing. Here are just a few comments to the three topics:
"the world is too full to talk about……." Rumi.
Regarding the questions, I think your expectations are reasonable.
What you would NOT want to happen relates to any fears you might have.
Now let's begin:
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KNOWING AND SEEING
There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers) and seeing (looking in direct experience).
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target.
Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).
So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing, and seeing that there is nothing. Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
Colored Socks
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?
For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way.
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on.
We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.
Please let me know you are absolutely clear about looking and seeing.
Direct or Actual Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (feeling body sensations but not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thinking (but not the content of thinking. Thinking about content is just more thinking and diverts you from the direct experience)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is.
Please find a photo online of an apple or a real apple.
When looking at an apple directly there's color; a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is seen for sure? Colors are seen, shapes maybe seen and thinking is seen.
What about the content of thought, what do thoughts describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts (including descriptions) about something.
Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thinking arising, but not its content.
So is there really an 'apple' here or only color and a thought about 'apple'?
Can 'apple' be found in direct experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in direct experience.
You can choose some other fruits, vegetables or objects and look in the same manner.
Love,
Rowena
Thanks for your beautiful sharing. Here are just a few comments to the three topics:
Yes! beautiful, this is how it is….we will look closer into this illusion.On one hand, this is just happening in a strange way. Everything is enfolding itself. On the other hand, I still have the illusion of choosing, making decisions etc.
When you see how everything is just happening and unfolding, how does this feel in the body when you look at this? Are there contractions in the body or is there a feeling of openness, calmness, and perhaps joy arising. Does it need to have a good reason?Why I’m writing this? The reason I shared this with you, is that I try to see enlightenment, altered states, cleaner mind, realization, awakening etc. (I know there are million ways to interpret this words) in the same way. What is it good for? Maybe it’s a romantic way of looking at this whole topic. But for me the path and message of the bodhisattva way was always a great motivation and a good reason for doing this. (Nevertheless I also feel, that there is no choice in this.)
In LU all pointing is towards direct experiencing, (ref. item 2 in my first post). Please let go of all thoughts, beliefs, concepts, interpretations, expectations regarding how this process will or should unfold. (ref. item 3 in the same post above).But it can be, that this is the ultimate truth and it is just my self-defense system, which is projecting this negative feeling upon these persons, who teach this way. What do you think of this?
Yes! beautiful! Trust your experience.It is also my experience, that when I’m nowadays with people surrounded, I tend to fall into this blessed emptiness and I can focus much more on them, without labels and the buzzing of the self. I ask better questions, and I’m really interested in them, even if the person on the surface wouldn’t be an interesting one for the self. And the reactions are also quite interesting. People are opening to me in a beautiful way, they tell me really a lot about themselves, although we just met some minutes ago. And they are also astonished by this. Maybe they feel, that in that moment, there is no me/ego to whom they are talking to, just ears and presence? So this kind of loving, accepting presence gives me a good reason for this whole journey. Nevertheless, if it wouldn’t be like this, it would unfold itself anyway… What are your experiences with this?
The accident being awakening! I do not have a disciplined meditation practice; in the past I did practice meditation on an off, but I was never aligned with one particular style or teaching. Nowadays, if I could say that I had a meditation practice, it is through the direct experiencing of what is actually present. The mind becomes calm as the senses are allowed full sway andSecond topic:
I like this concept the most: Meditation is a tool, which increases the chance of an accident. What are your experiences/thoughts about this topic?
"the world is too full to talk about……." Rumi.
I love what you have written and you clearly have much understanding and compassion as to where to meet people with regard to this message. For me, once the honeymoon period after seeing through the illusion of self had faded then the work with the body began. It really has been an ongoing and total embracing of all the shadow material. Over 60 years of conditioning, trauma and diverting from feelings to be looked at! This is an ongoing process that is so rich and fulfilling, all patterns of identification or reactivity get explored and they always point to 'what's going on in the body'.Third topic:
I know that trauma related pain and angst is not that easy to explain. I feel that there is a lot of pain stored in the body. But you know, what I mean? What do you think about this?
Regarding the questions, I think your expectations are reasonable.
What you would NOT want to happen relates to any fears you might have.
Now let's begin:
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KNOWING AND SEEING
There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers) and seeing (looking in direct experience).
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target.
Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).
So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing, and seeing that there is nothing. Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
Colored Socks
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?
For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way.
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on.
We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.
Please let me know you are absolutely clear about looking and seeing.
Direct or Actual Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (feeling body sensations but not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thinking (but not the content of thinking. Thinking about content is just more thinking and diverts you from the direct experience)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is.
Please find a photo online of an apple or a real apple.
When looking at an apple directly there's color; a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is seen for sure? Colors are seen, shapes maybe seen and thinking is seen.
What about the content of thought, what do thoughts describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts (including descriptions) about something.
Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thinking arising, but not its content.
So is there really an 'apple' here or only color and a thought about 'apple'?
Can 'apple' be found in direct experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in direct experience.
You can choose some other fruits, vegetables or objects and look in the same manner.
Love,
Rowena
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
First of all, thank you for taking the time, to read my little novel from last time.
I'm afraid, that I'm so smart, that I can trick myself in this experiences and make myself believe that it is real. There is this voice from the self-defence system, that all this is BS, I had no real experience, this strange half rational=half emotional insight is no insight at all, jut a trick to run away from pain and suffering. So I made this up. And it works, so I get deeper and deeper in this illusion of the path, of seeking...And I wan't it soooo bad, I want to get rid of this self and it's pain sooo bad, that I make myself everything believe. In other words, this is no real, this is some soft kind of madness... But what if, I really turn mad in this whole "wanting something other, than what is"?
A question: I see the reactions of the ego very clear nowadays. E.g. somebody is commenting something on my post on FB in a harsh way, or calls me dumb etc. In that moment there is a very strong feeling of self-defense arising. „Who are you talking to, you little sh...?!”, „You don’t have a clue, who I’m, how many things I know!’ ’I’m much better, etc etc.’ Since this reaction is seen and noted, the power of it is less and less. But it arises still with a huge power. Like a huge wave, cut in half. My self-enquiry method is this for this reactions. Who/what is this? Who is offended, who is empty? Than usually my name pops up. Then I ask again with the name, who is this Sebi? It helps to calm the ego, but it seems sometimes, that this is an everlasting struggle. Although some month/year ago, I had no filter at all. So I’m just impatient again...
Do you have maybe a better self-enquiry method for this? Is this the way to get rid of this voice step by step?
It would be quite a thing to keep this baby-perspective all the time :) But I don't know if one could function that way...
Hugs.
Sebi
First of all, thank you for taking the time, to read my little novel from last time.
It is a calm feeling, a kind of surrender, emptiness. On the other hand, life seems from this perspective like a movie. It’s visually also a bit different...Somehow sharper..:? I can’t put this in words. But this is also pulsating, it is not a constant feeling.When you see how everything is just happening and unfolding, how does this feel in the body when you look at this?
Are there contractions in the body or is there a feeling of openness, calmness, and perhaps joy arising. Does it need to have a good reason?
It’s on one hand mesmerizing, but on the other hand also a bit sad and disturbing how many ways there are. And each lineage thinks their way is the only way. It’s also the same about the concept of enlightenment. Some just use one word for it, they are talking about one instant experience, and that was it, that stays forever. Some talk about stages ( IM, anatta, On-mind etc.). It’s a bit confusing. It’s like each awakening experience (which is no experience), is depending on the persons believes, the books, the teachers, videos etc. he/she is consuming. There is no general experience, maybe some parts are the same only.I do not have a disciplined meditation practice; in the past I did practice meditation on an off, but I was never aligned with one particular style or teaching.
It’s maybe permanence the thing I’m afraid of. That something wrong can stay forever. Or that I stay forever in this purgatory, where sometimes I know, sometimes not, and I have constantly doubts, if this whole experience, is just an illusion, a rational self-hypnosis. I read and watched to many experiences from others and heard way too many infos in this topic, and I started to fake it. And that this „fake it till you make it”, will stay forever, without the make it part. That all this doubt, all this weight I’m carrying, all this pain, and heavy burden of the self stays forever. Feeling betrayed, feeling abandoned, not being enough, nobody sees my values, the need for appreciation. I fell this things are all so heavy and a so-so much unnecessary.What you would NOT want to happen relates to any fears you might have.
I'm afraid, that I'm so smart, that I can trick myself in this experiences and make myself believe that it is real. There is this voice from the self-defence system, that all this is BS, I had no real experience, this strange half rational=half emotional insight is no insight at all, jut a trick to run away from pain and suffering. So I made this up. And it works, so I get deeper and deeper in this illusion of the path, of seeking...And I wan't it soooo bad, I want to get rid of this self and it's pain sooo bad, that I make myself everything believe. In other words, this is no real, this is some soft kind of madness... But what if, I really turn mad in this whole "wanting something other, than what is"?
A question: I see the reactions of the ego very clear nowadays. E.g. somebody is commenting something on my post on FB in a harsh way, or calls me dumb etc. In that moment there is a very strong feeling of self-defense arising. „Who are you talking to, you little sh...?!”, „You don’t have a clue, who I’m, how many things I know!’ ’I’m much better, etc etc.’ Since this reaction is seen and noted, the power of it is less and less. But it arises still with a huge power. Like a huge wave, cut in half. My self-enquiry method is this for this reactions. Who/what is this? Who is offended, who is empty? Than usually my name pops up. Then I ask again with the name, who is this Sebi? It helps to calm the ego, but it seems sometimes, that this is an everlasting struggle. Although some month/year ago, I had no filter at all. So I’m just impatient again...
Do you have maybe a better self-enquiry method for this? Is this the way to get rid of this voice step by step?
These thoughts are based on memory: I feel the taste in my mouth, the feeling of the bite, saliva is rising in my mouth etc. Thoughts can be very vivid.What about the content of thought, what do thoughts describe?
The memories can make the sensation almost real. But it’s the same experience, as with daydreaming. It seems so alive, but then when I come back to the now, and I’m focusing on the difference between the here and now and the vision I just had, the now is much more visceral, sharp.So is there really an 'apple' here or only color and a thought about 'apple'?
No. It’ just a label. There is only taste, smell, tactile experiences regarding to this thing we label as apple.Can 'apple' be found in direct experience?
It would be quite a thing to keep this baby-perspective all the time :) But I don't know if one could function that way...
Hugs.
Sebi
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
I looked into the self topic again. I went into the rabbit whole as deep as I can.
I can’t stop reading, listening and thinking about this. It is just happening, I can’t stop it… I’m constantly in this. It is burning me up…
It’s a very ambivalent experience. Rationally I understand what the whole non-duality/buddhism etc. message related to this is about. And there is sympathy, there is a kind of identification with this. But on the other hand, there is a strong feeling of something unchangeable, if the self would have a core, which binds the person I was, as a child, as a teenager etc. together with the one I’m here right now. I know that this bundle of self, which is made of my memories, feelings, experiences, traits of character, needs, choices, things that are preferred, things that I don’ like etc., are constantly changing. Also how I behave in a shop on a bad day, maybe grumpy, and stiff and on a good day with friends, relaxed, kind and focused, its different, but still I wouldn’t call it a different self. Also relating to the body it’s somehow the same: I know that the body is also not constant, that only change is constant, but there is a feeling, that the „I”, the „self” is hidden in the whole body but also in every part of it. But if I had to choose an organ, than it would be the brain, as a memory device. So following these thoughts, I would say that it is the memories, that are the self. The brain is just a device for them to be stored somewhere. But the memories are also vague, so than h feeling comes, that there is nothing, but in the same time there is this other sensation of something constant, of a constant, fixed I/self.... So the self is not the body, but a bundle of memories, traits that come from somewhere. But where does these characteristics, humor, taste etc. come from? I see that these are also changing, but somehow there is this feeling, illusion (?) of a separate self, of a constant self. Something can’t let it go. But what is it which can’t let go the idea of the self? This is like a neverending mindfuck…
I’m going mad… :)
The deeper I’m thinking this trough and I read all this materials, where others think it trough, like the Gateless gatecrushers, I come to the point, that it is as there would be a “soul”, that is playing this character, and the character is changing throughout of his lifetime, but the thing which is playing it, the actor itself is not changing, it’s endless, it was always there. But the thoughts are not coming from It. It is as the thoughts would come from nothing and going to nothing. Neither this absolute Consciousness, neither the relative consciousness thinks. Thinking is just appearing….
And this is related to the feeling I have stronger in me since 2 days, that everything is also just happening…If I would watch a movie. But where is than the choice, where is free will for gods sake???
This is madness….:)
Are we than just puppets?
And there is this feeling what I have since this realization in autumn, when I realize all this, where I saw that if something else is watching trough my eyes. But I couldn’t still integrated this intellectually and on emotional level, as you can see…. So with this came a sensation, that everything is necessary in life. A deep sensation and understanding, that everything is happening as is should. If I’m going into this, than it get’s madness again…So the holocaust happened also with a reason..???
Or it just happened?
So life is just happening. And there is no reason at all. Just this, just happening…??
This is so empty. It is sad somehow. Liberating, but fucking sad.
Where is ethics? Where is karma than?
Is there no correlation between my thought/word/acts and the future?
Is Gandhi and Hitler the same?
Is hugging and killing somebody the same?
This is the stuff the neo advaita guys are talking about…
And yes, it seems true from this perspective. From this logic.
Why is it, that the more I’m investigating this topic, I have the feeling that I’m not going anywhere with this….
Something in me just can’t accept that, what I wrote above.
THERE MUST BE A SENSE OF ALL THIS, THERE MUST BE A DIFFERENCE OF GOOD AND BAD, THERE MUST BE A KARMA. This is shouting in me. Rebelling.
Can you help me, seeing this clearer?
This is what the heart sutra is about? That the 5 aggregates=skandhas are empty?
The illusion of the mind, the patterns are feeling it up with content, are giving labels to it.
So in reality nothing matters, nothing exist, there is no karma, there is no soul, there is no pure consciousness=gud=unity=Great Love etc.? Everything is empty? Just being?
But what are than all the teachers talking about? What is Jesus talking about, when he says Father?
I’m confused. Or there is confusedness, to use this creepy non dual language….
I had this sensation, that there is something watching trough my eyes, that there is an Observer, which sees, observes the thoughts. And for a time I thought, that yes this is it. It’s the same thing that is watching to everybody’s eyes. And lot of guys are saying this. Ruper Spire, Eckhart etc.
That there is some sort of Unity=God etc.
But if I’m relating to my fresh sensation, that this is just happening… Than where is God in this? Where is the meaning in this, the sense? God is making sense of all this. The path of the soul, karma makes sense of all this.
But what is, when there is nothing like this?
Just the happening? Is happening=God?
Oh, my God…. :)
I looked into the self topic again. I went into the rabbit whole as deep as I can.
I can’t stop reading, listening and thinking about this. It is just happening, I can’t stop it… I’m constantly in this. It is burning me up…
It’s a very ambivalent experience. Rationally I understand what the whole non-duality/buddhism etc. message related to this is about. And there is sympathy, there is a kind of identification with this. But on the other hand, there is a strong feeling of something unchangeable, if the self would have a core, which binds the person I was, as a child, as a teenager etc. together with the one I’m here right now. I know that this bundle of self, which is made of my memories, feelings, experiences, traits of character, needs, choices, things that are preferred, things that I don’ like etc., are constantly changing. Also how I behave in a shop on a bad day, maybe grumpy, and stiff and on a good day with friends, relaxed, kind and focused, its different, but still I wouldn’t call it a different self. Also relating to the body it’s somehow the same: I know that the body is also not constant, that only change is constant, but there is a feeling, that the „I”, the „self” is hidden in the whole body but also in every part of it. But if I had to choose an organ, than it would be the brain, as a memory device. So following these thoughts, I would say that it is the memories, that are the self. The brain is just a device for them to be stored somewhere. But the memories are also vague, so than h feeling comes, that there is nothing, but in the same time there is this other sensation of something constant, of a constant, fixed I/self.... So the self is not the body, but a bundle of memories, traits that come from somewhere. But where does these characteristics, humor, taste etc. come from? I see that these are also changing, but somehow there is this feeling, illusion (?) of a separate self, of a constant self. Something can’t let it go. But what is it which can’t let go the idea of the self? This is like a neverending mindfuck…
I’m going mad… :)
The deeper I’m thinking this trough and I read all this materials, where others think it trough, like the Gateless gatecrushers, I come to the point, that it is as there would be a “soul”, that is playing this character, and the character is changing throughout of his lifetime, but the thing which is playing it, the actor itself is not changing, it’s endless, it was always there. But the thoughts are not coming from It. It is as the thoughts would come from nothing and going to nothing. Neither this absolute Consciousness, neither the relative consciousness thinks. Thinking is just appearing….
And this is related to the feeling I have stronger in me since 2 days, that everything is also just happening…If I would watch a movie. But where is than the choice, where is free will for gods sake???
This is madness….:)
Are we than just puppets?
And there is this feeling what I have since this realization in autumn, when I realize all this, where I saw that if something else is watching trough my eyes. But I couldn’t still integrated this intellectually and on emotional level, as you can see…. So with this came a sensation, that everything is necessary in life. A deep sensation and understanding, that everything is happening as is should. If I’m going into this, than it get’s madness again…So the holocaust happened also with a reason..???
Or it just happened?
So life is just happening. And there is no reason at all. Just this, just happening…??
This is so empty. It is sad somehow. Liberating, but fucking sad.
Where is ethics? Where is karma than?
Is there no correlation between my thought/word/acts and the future?
Is Gandhi and Hitler the same?
Is hugging and killing somebody the same?
This is the stuff the neo advaita guys are talking about…
And yes, it seems true from this perspective. From this logic.
Why is it, that the more I’m investigating this topic, I have the feeling that I’m not going anywhere with this….
Something in me just can’t accept that, what I wrote above.
THERE MUST BE A SENSE OF ALL THIS, THERE MUST BE A DIFFERENCE OF GOOD AND BAD, THERE MUST BE A KARMA. This is shouting in me. Rebelling.
Can you help me, seeing this clearer?
This is what the heart sutra is about? That the 5 aggregates=skandhas are empty?
The illusion of the mind, the patterns are feeling it up with content, are giving labels to it.
So in reality nothing matters, nothing exist, there is no karma, there is no soul, there is no pure consciousness=gud=unity=Great Love etc.? Everything is empty? Just being?
But what are than all the teachers talking about? What is Jesus talking about, when he says Father?
I’m confused. Or there is confusedness, to use this creepy non dual language….
I had this sensation, that there is something watching trough my eyes, that there is an Observer, which sees, observes the thoughts. And for a time I thought, that yes this is it. It’s the same thing that is watching to everybody’s eyes. And lot of guys are saying this. Ruper Spire, Eckhart etc.
That there is some sort of Unity=God etc.
But if I’m relating to my fresh sensation, that this is just happening… Than where is God in this? Where is the meaning in this, the sense? God is making sense of all this. The path of the soul, karma makes sense of all this.
But what is, when there is nothing like this?
Just the happening? Is happening=God?
Oh, my God…. :)
Re: Sharing
Hi Seb,
Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading etc. for the duration of this investigation. Put all your effort and attention in to seeing what is, as it is, with 100% honesty. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.
Feeling betrayed, how does this feel in the body?
how does this wanting something other than what is feel in the body?
Go to DE, Where are the sensations located?
How does this strong feeling feel in the body?
Where are the sensations located?
Can you be present with those sensations for just a moment?
We are not looking to get rid of anything. Do you know this Rumi poem, The Guest House?
https://grateful.org/resource/guest-house-rumi/
Is there really an 'apple' here or only color and thinking? (about 'apple' is already content).
Since this is already a long post I will start another one for the next exercise.
I will probably repeat this reminder over and over, for this process to work you have to be focused on DE (direct experience) of what's actually happening and describe your findings without relying on thought, imagination or memory. Long-winded analytical and/or philosophical answers are best avoided as they can hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.Some just use one word for it, they are talking about one instant experience, and that was it, that stays forever. Some talk about stages ( IM, anatta, On-mind etc.). It’s a bit confusing. It’s like each awakening experience (which is no experience), is depending on the persons believes, the books, the teachers, videos etc. he/she is consuming. There is no general experience, maybe some parts are the same only.
Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading etc. for the duration of this investigation. Put all your effort and attention in to seeing what is, as it is, with 100% honesty. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.
Seeing what's actually happening through direct experiencing (DE) will help you find the way through all this. Even when it has been seen that there is no self, such defensive patterns will remain to be worked with. To put it simply, they are all defense mechanisms put in place that have helped you since your were a small child to survive and function in conventional reality.It’s maybe permanence the thing I’m afraid of. That something wrong can stay forever. Or that I stay forever in this purgatory, where sometimes I know, sometimes not, and I have constantly doubts, if this whole experience, is just an illusion, a rational self-hypnosis. I read and watched to many experiences from others and heard way too many infos in this topic, and I started to fake it. And that this „fake it till you make it”, will stay forever, without the make it part. That all this doubt, all this weight I’m carrying, all this pain, and heavy burden of the self stays forever. Feeling betrayed, feeling abandoned, not being enough, nobody sees my values, the need for appreciation. I fell this things are all so heavy and a so-so much unnecessary.
Feeling betrayed, how does this feel in the body?
These are beliefs, we will investigate further. For now:I'm afraid, that I'm so smart, that I can trick myself in this experiences and make myself believe that it is real. There is this voice from the self-defence system, that all this is BS, I had no real experience, this strange half rational=half emotional insight is no insight at all, jut a trick to run away from pain and suffering. So I made this up. And it works, so I get deeper and deeper in this illusion of the path, of seeking...And I wan't it soooo bad, I want to get rid of this self and it's pain sooo bad, that I make myself everything believe. In other words, this is no real, this is some soft kind of madness... But what if, I really turn mad in this whole "wanting something other, than what is"?
how does this wanting something other than what is feel in the body?
Go to DE, Where are the sensations located?
Your inquiry process is good, however it is not complete. You mention a strong feeling of self-defense arising?A question: I see the reactions of the ego very clear nowadays. E.g. somebody is commenting something on my post on FB in a harsh way, or calls me dumb etc. In that moment there is a very strong feeling of self-defense arising. „Who are you talking to, you little sh...?!”, „You don’t have a clue, who I’m, how many things I know!’ ’I’m much better, etc etc.’ Since this reaction is seen and noted, the power of it is less and less. But it arises still with a huge power. Like a huge wave, cut in half. My self-enquiry method is this for this reactions. Who/what is this? Who is offended, who is empty? Than usually my name pops up. Then I ask again with the name, who is this Sebi? It helps to calm the ego, but it seems sometimes, that this is an everlasting struggle. Although some month/year ago, I had no filter at all. So I’m just impatient again...
Do you have maybe a better self-enquiry method for this? Is this the way to get rid of this voice step by step?
How does this strong feeling feel in the body?
Where are the sensations located?
Can you be present with those sensations for just a moment?
We are not looking to get rid of anything. Do you know this Rumi poem, The Guest House?
https://grateful.org/resource/guest-house-rumi/
Yes!What about the content of thought, what do thoughts describe?
These thoughts are based on memory: I feel the taste in my mouth, the feeling of the bite, saliva is rising in my mouth etc. Thoughts can be very vivid.
So what do you see when you actually LOOK at the apple (see the Colored Socks pointer on how to look) What do you see in DE?So is there really an 'apple' here or only color and a thought about 'apple'?
The memories can make the sensation almost real. But it’s the same experience, as with daydreaming. It seems so alive, but then when I come back to the now, and I’m focusing on the difference between the here and now and the vision I just had, the now is much more visceral, sharp.
Is there really an 'apple' here or only color and thinking? (about 'apple' is already content).
Yes, and seeingCan 'apple' be found in direct experience?
No. It’ just a label. There is only taste, smell, tactile experiences regarding to this thing we label as apple.
A funny thought :)It would be quite a thing to keep this baby-perspective all the time :) But I don't know if one could function that way...
Since this is already a long post I will start another one for the next exercise.
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
MIND LABELING EXPERIENCE:
Hi Sebi,
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”, using the format below.
For example:
I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.
Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. Please write each DE as a separate line.
For example:
Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.
Try the two together, first say with "I am" and next without: I am walking / walking
Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?
At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
(If answer is yes then "Nope. Not one bit. There's an exercise for that. I may give it next. but for now. if I write GREEN does the label, "green" change what you actually see? No.
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
Love,
Rowena
Hi Sebi,
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”, using the format below.
For example:
I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.
Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. Please write each DE as a separate line.
For example:
Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.
Try the two together, first say with "I am" and next without: I am walking / walking
Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?
At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
(If answer is yes then "Nope. Not one bit. There's an exercise for that. I may give it next. but for now. if I write GREEN does the label, "green" change what you actually see? No.
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
Love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
HI Sebi,
By the way you are welcome, it is a pleasure to accompany you on this investigation :)
I have just seen your brain storm post....I call these mind attacks!
I will go through it carefully and take out any salient bits that might be helpful and comment, but it is not through the content of thought that we are going to do this inquiry, it is through DE.
Thinking about the colored socks example today I decided to expand upon it for fun :
Expansion on Colored Socks:
1. I read somewhere, or heard from a reputable source, that wearing red socks can help with being grounded in the body.
a) I don't believe that, or,
b) If it comes from that reputable source it must be true.
c) I told my friend about the red socks to help with being grounded and she tried it. She told me that she really believed that it worked! So it must be a valid practice, but...how can it possibly work? I need more information, I am going to study up on all the information I can find about grounding with red socks!
THESE ARE ALL THOUGHTS BASED ON SECOND-HAND INFORMATION. THOUGHTS AND MORE THOUGHTS!
2. My friend asked me if I was wearing red socks today and without looking, I told her that I was. (I knew I was because I could remember that I had put them on this morning).
THIS IS BASED ON KNOWING BUT NOT LOOKING.
3. I looked down at my legs to see the socks I was wearing. They were red!
THIS IS BASED ON LOOKING AND SEEING.
Please report back to me that you have understood this.
Love Rowena :)
By the way you are welcome, it is a pleasure to accompany you on this investigation :)
I have just seen your brain storm post....I call these mind attacks!
I will go through it carefully and take out any salient bits that might be helpful and comment, but it is not through the content of thought that we are going to do this inquiry, it is through DE.
Thinking about the colored socks example today I decided to expand upon it for fun :
Expansion on Colored Socks:
1. I read somewhere, or heard from a reputable source, that wearing red socks can help with being grounded in the body.
a) I don't believe that, or,
b) If it comes from that reputable source it must be true.
c) I told my friend about the red socks to help with being grounded and she tried it. She told me that she really believed that it worked! So it must be a valid practice, but...how can it possibly work? I need more information, I am going to study up on all the information I can find about grounding with red socks!
THESE ARE ALL THOUGHTS BASED ON SECOND-HAND INFORMATION. THOUGHTS AND MORE THOUGHTS!
2. My friend asked me if I was wearing red socks today and without looking, I told her that I was. (I knew I was because I could remember that I had put them on this morning).
THIS IS BASED ON KNOWING BUT NOT LOOKING.
3. I looked down at my legs to see the socks I was wearing. They were red!
THIS IS BASED ON LOOKING AND SEEING.
Please report back to me that you have understood this.
Love Rowena :)
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
There is also a stomachache. Like there is a whole in the stomach.
There is sadness and rage.
My testicles get smaller, and pulling up into the stomach.
Same as above, but with more rage, aggression.
In the second version, there is more calmness, it feels more relaxed. A feeling of it is, as it is.
Hugs
Sebi
It’s a squeeze in the heart. Literally a heartache. Blood pressure is rising, I can feel the blood rising in my left arm at most. Like when you smoke a cigarette after a long time, and the blood vessels are narrowing.Feeling betrayed, how does this feel in the body?
There is also a stomachache. Like there is a whole in the stomach.
There is sadness and rage.
My testicles get smaller, and pulling up into the stomach.
The same sensation of being agitated. Turbulence. Bloodpressure is rising. A sqeezing sensation in the heart and belly and testicles.How does this wanting something other than what is feel in the body?
Go to DE, Where are the sensations located?
How does this strong feeling feel in the body?Your inquiry process is good, however it is not complete. You mention a strong feeling of self-defense arising?
Same as above, but with more rage, aggression.
Mostly in the heart. I’m biting my teeth together, jaw get’s stiff. This is also happening in the 2 previous sensations.Where are the sensations located?
Yes, good one. I feel deeply, that all of this is necessary. And I’m not mad, it just get’s very frustrating after a time, because it’s redundant. And I dunno anymore what I should learn from these feelings, they are just there, again and again. The feeling of “this should not be here/this way anymore”. I try to put this aside and just allow the sensations to be. I try to not punish myself because of them, or push them away. I’m doing the same with thoughts since a while in meditation, and off-meditation as well. Just observing them.We are not looking to get rid of anything. Do you know this Rumi poem, The Guest House?
I don’t know what I’m looking at, without labels.So what do you see when you actually LOOK at the apple (see the Colored Socks pointer on how to look) What do you see in DE?
No apple, no colors, no shape. It is.Is there really an 'apple' here or only color and thinking? (about 'apple' is already content).
Yes, the description of what happening without an I, feels more real.1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
Calmness, Curiosity. Amazment. Gratitude.2. What is here without labels?
The labels, are taking away the curiosity and the focus on the object. What is seen is the same, but taking away the filter of the labels, there is suddenly an amazement, a curiosity. The experience is more vivid, interesting. There is no ugly or beautiful.3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
(If answer is yes then "Nope. Not one bit. There's an exercise for that. I may give it next. but for now. if I write GREEN does the label, "green" change what you actually see? No.
Yes. In the first version, there is tension. A feeling, that something is off-putting.4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
In the second version, there is more calmness, it feels more relaxed. A feeling of it is, as it is.
Hugs
Sebi
Re: Sharing
Regarding the "mind-attack".
I understand the meaning of this process and the meaning of pointing.
Nevertheless I can’t completely shut down my rational side.
And by the way the process begun rationally. A sentence got stuck in my head and it became immanent over night.
But I also see, that rationalizing all this, trying to understand it, won’t give me the constant change I’m after. It can cause change in my state for a while, let’s call it being hypnotized, but it goes away after a while.
On the other hand, hearing these sentences in a podcast again and again, made something click in me: What happens with thought, if we don’t think it? And what if the thinker is also just a thought? This simple question resonated with me so deeply, that it got stuck in my head and from there the change started to unfold itself.
Hence strangely, this is also dualistic. On one hand rationalizing it, listening to others inspiring stories, doesn’t make sense on the long run, but a cognitive process can start inner processes as well.
Nevertheless, I will try to focus and rely more on DE during this process.
Hugs
Sebi
I understand the meaning of this process and the meaning of pointing.
Nevertheless I can’t completely shut down my rational side.
And by the way the process begun rationally. A sentence got stuck in my head and it became immanent over night.
But I also see, that rationalizing all this, trying to understand it, won’t give me the constant change I’m after. It can cause change in my state for a while, let’s call it being hypnotized, but it goes away after a while.
On the other hand, hearing these sentences in a podcast again and again, made something click in me: What happens with thought, if we don’t think it? And what if the thinker is also just a thought? This simple question resonated with me so deeply, that it got stuck in my head and from there the change started to unfold itself.
Hence strangely, this is also dualistic. On one hand rationalizing it, listening to others inspiring stories, doesn’t make sense on the long run, but a cognitive process can start inner processes as well.
Nevertheless, I will try to focus and rely more on DE during this process.
Hugs
Sebi
Re: Sharing
One more thing Rowena.
I wanted to share this experience.
Nowadays I more and more see the whole functioning of Sebi as watching an actor.
This perspective is than the most visible, when something upsetting is happening.
There is rage, there is anxiety etc. and I say the words as I used to in such situations, I even participate in the usual discussion with people, but somehow it seems there is no identification with these. From the outside, there is no change, but it feels like somebody else is doing it. I can go from being mad, in a split second, to not even remembering what this was about. Than triggering is happening, I’m again in the story of being upset, mad, anxious etc. And than it disappears again. Stepping in and out of the story. And somehow there is a feeling in the background….that something is enjoying all this "being upset- game"… As playing an interesting character on stage.
It is a feeling, like playing a role… The sensations have an effect, but in the same time, it is like there is nobody to feel this effect, so it falls away…. It’s like drawing a smiley on a cars window, when it’s frozen. And suddenly the sun comes up, and in minutes, the smiley isn’t there anymore.
These are such subtle experiences…
Hugs
Sebi
I wanted to share this experience.
Nowadays I more and more see the whole functioning of Sebi as watching an actor.
This perspective is than the most visible, when something upsetting is happening.
There is rage, there is anxiety etc. and I say the words as I used to in such situations, I even participate in the usual discussion with people, but somehow it seems there is no identification with these. From the outside, there is no change, but it feels like somebody else is doing it. I can go from being mad, in a split second, to not even remembering what this was about. Than triggering is happening, I’m again in the story of being upset, mad, anxious etc. And than it disappears again. Stepping in and out of the story. And somehow there is a feeling in the background….that something is enjoying all this "being upset- game"… As playing an interesting character on stage.
It is a feeling, like playing a role… The sensations have an effect, but in the same time, it is like there is nobody to feel this effect, so it falls away…. It’s like drawing a smiley on a cars window, when it’s frozen. And suddenly the sun comes up, and in minutes, the smiley isn’t there anymore.
These are such subtle experiences…
Hugs
Sebi
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