Understanding but not knowing

[atmajnani]

Hi Angelfire,

First of all, I hope you had a wonderful Christmas time with your dearest ones!
I noticed you didn't use the quote function in your reply. Here is a videoclip on how to use it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

The sense of this programming is strong, even though there is now awareness of how thoughts are just another bodily function. How does one separate from this programming, it's automated everything through that false reality?

The programming is also called 'conditioning' (social, ancestral, cultural, etc.). Once the conceptual identity dissolves some of that conditioning dissolves too, other takes time as you become more and more aware of those automated programs and unidentify with them, creating more freedom for Life to unfold.

Here is an exercise to understand deeper the nature of thoughts:
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to
feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know what you notice.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Angelfire]

Hello Atmajnani!

I have been well thank you and Merry Christmas to you.

Thanks for the video about the quote function, I struggle however as I'm using a very old android phone that doesn't select very well I am afraid hence me avoiding it where I can Apologies.

Thank you for the excersise, I had no idea what to expect but I think I quickly got the just of it. For every external thing that was other, there was an opinion of it that made it self.
It really illustrated my issues of how I keep making opinions on anything and everything and how much weight I have with it, it's frustrating!
I see clearly what's going on, yet I feel stuck like glue in it.

I'm trying to go back to basics ATM, observing that everything has no meaning, and noticing I am laying on meaning on everything.

Warm regards

Angelfire

[atmajnani]

Hi Angel,

Don't worry, you are progressing!
The noticing or awareness of our conditioning and mental labeling is the beginning of change.
If you start noticing in the same moment it's playing out, then you can behave differently with awareness.
This process takes time and willingness to dissolve identification with the mind.

For every external thing that was 'other', there was an opinion of it that made it 'self'.

It's shocking, isn't it? Every thought has 'self' as referential point, everything happens to a 'Me'. No wonder we believe that a Self exists. But where is it? Is it a little character behind your eyes?

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper. This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any
bodily sensation, i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Happy New Year!
Atmajnani

[Angelfire]

Hello! I hope you have been well. I carried out the exercises and a surprise came up 😀. While stating "I hear ringing" vs "ringing sounds felt different then both felt true. However, I was surprised to see how relaxed I was becoming when just stating actions, even when I was stating unpleasant things like itching. It definitely does affect the experience putting the word 'I'.

I do not understand your question on what is here without lables, sorry if you can clarify that question?

A side note from me. So a couple days back I was taking my environment in while showering, trying to keep the mind stuff out and see the actual moment. When I have been doing this it has always been subtly uncomfortable, no thoughts just a body feeling. And this is with feeling that sence of weight being lifted, a good feeling. I notice my experience very clearly amd how REAL it is outside my mind.I was in the right headspace to dig into this on why I might have an aversion and just like that it was clear.

As a child going through the traumatic times, I was always always wishing to be older and in a position where I was able to get myself out instead of being powerless and trapped. The vividness of the moment is reminiscent of how vivid those experiences where. I did not want to feel that moment and being in it felt bad and wishing it away for something better felt good.

So now when I feel the vividness of the reality becoming clear, I'm subconsciously recoiling.

I'm aware it's all just more thoughts on top of thoughts but this is a.more bodily reaction and have been unaware of it. Should I just keep fighting through it?

Thank you ❤️

[atmajnani]

Hi Angel,

I do not understand your question on what is here without lables, sorry if you can clarify that question?

Well, you answered yourself in your reply. Without labels there's JUST THIS! Sounds, colors, smells, taste, body sensations!

Should I just keep fighting through it?

Never fight! Keep noticing and surrender. Only then it dissolves.

I can relate with your experience. I had childhood trauma and when I was doing inquiry at LU there was so much resistance to look into body sensations! Most of that resistance eventually dissolved during 10 months of an unpleasant emotional reactive phase that I didn't know when it was going to end. The key to succeed is to NOTICE and SURRENDER. Some days will be difficult, take a pause, other days you'll feel better and move on, and one day you will notice that the pattern dissolved by itself!

Let's look closer at the Label-Reality correlation.
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’ , what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Angelfire]

Hi good morning!

Thanks for that personal experience, it made me feel a bit better. 10 months sounds like forever to be going through something like that. I have no idea how things will manifest with me. I have fear that this will impact my relationship in a negative way, rather then positive.But I'm trying to remain optimistic, as nothing has happened yet to be having worries but it is in the back of my head.

So old the below excersises has hammered it into me of how labels are a huge co tributer to the manifestation of self. I honestly didn't think it could be such a strong propeller of it until this RED excersise. I feel relieved to see this now.
Im going to practice unlinking (is that a word?)the thoughts that comes up in the mind from 'me' today as they pop up.

Thank you so much Atmajnani for putting your precious time aside for me on this journey.

Kind regards
Angelfire

[atmajnani]

Hi Angelfire,

I have fear that this will impact my relationship in a negative way, rather then positive.

During that emotional reactive phase the biggest challenge is to stay with the body sensations and not react (which hurt those around us), dissociate the mental narrative from primary sensations. It took me a while to get there. It takes practice to observe the sensations arise and stay quiet, then reaction subsides.

Another exercise quite similar to the previous one about the RED label:

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts.
Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Angelfire]

Hiya!

I'm sorry for the long delay in responding, I couldn't get back into my account.

It's somehow sorted now.
I managed to move passed my fears of impacting my relationship in a negative way, I have cone to realise its a fear of loss that's coming through. This sense of self is creating stories to instill fear of losing it.

To be honest there has been some ups and downs, days of heavy frustration on why this 'self' or ego can't be shifted. Impatience is getting the best of the situation which is not pleasant.

The work continues, but with effort. Always looking for opportunities to see the moment, try to distance throughts and labels. It's a bit exhausting actually. Looking at the endgame keeps the motivation....


Kind regards

Angelfire

[atmajnani]

Hi Angelfire,

Nice to hear from you again!

I'm glad you didn't give up and keep noting fears and illusions.
Could you pick up the last exercise and send your insights, please?

The ego has many many layers, like the onion. You can't expect it will disappear at once with a 'pufff'.
What you will notice is a gradual shift in your reactions, less suffering or no suffering with situations that previously caused you so much irritation or anguish, etc.

Have a nice week,
Atmajnani

[Angelfire]

Hi there! Yes I misses off responding about the excersises didn't I 😅

So what was noticed is that before adding 'me' to the concept of 'friend' and 'stranger', that's what they were. Concepts.
As soon as you labeled it with 'me' the was am automated sense of ownership, 'me' wasn't just a reference point but a whole package of ideas and feelings attaching to 'friend'.

No wonder having thoughts over reality feels so heavy.

It is very annoying to be aware of all of this but still be stuck like glue to this automated process of thinking. I appreciate your comments though, the feelings of being in a trap were I have the key but can't seem to use it in the lock does come across sometimes but I guess that's just another opportunity to realise it's just another thought haha!

Thanks always

Angelfire.

[atmajnani]

Hi Angelfire,

When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision: can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

Where are thoughts arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral?
Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

You might have understood the illusion of the conceptual identity at the level of the mind, but have you realised it at a deeper sensorial level?

Sometimes silent meditation retreats help self-inquiry and vice-versa, but expectations are a true enemy. We have to surrender to whatever happens when it happens!

Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of identification of being the ‘doer’. That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser’. So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes.
The question is: can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Angelfire]

Hello there!

Sorry its been a while coming back, I have been traveling in Nicaragua for a few weeks.

I took that time to try to manage my expectations here, and have sort of made my peice that getting to where I want to be will take along time.

Thank you for the several excersises you have provided.

Regarding if I see a me, yes, of recent while I agree there is only a sense of me, a question of who is deciding to do this work has arrisen. It's against the automatic robot programming to carry out this work and does give a sense of a decider.

The thoughts are from nowhere and leave no trace apart from impacting another thought and the action taken from this.

The excersises related to me trying to stop me from seeing or or being aware does wrangle my head but question does still remain I am afraid.

Thank you.

Kind regards

Angelfire

[atmajnani]

Hi Angelfire,

It's nice to hear from you again!
I thought of you these last days :-)

have sort of made my peace that getting to where I want to be will take along time

If you meant that where you 'want to be' is awakened/illuminated, then it's true that 'awakening' is not a single final experience in time but a process that involves several awakenings and a continuous deepening realisation as long as you live. Even the 'sense of me' has several layers that drop gradually and not in a single moment.

a question of who is deciding to do this work has arrisen

So taking a closer look, is it that these voices (thoughts) are controlling these behaviours in any way?
Try this out.
Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behaviour; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Angelfire]

Hello Atmajnani! I do hope you have been well.

Thank you for clarifying the process of personal improvement, I see what the aim is to better then yesterday and having an over aching goal is not the point.

Regarding the excersises, I do see that there is a sneaky sense of control coming with the apple, peice of chocolate excersises. I know logically I have none but, yeah, the sense is still automatic.

I'm going to repeat that excersise daily in my actions.

However, it doesn't really answer the question I have- who is deciding to carry out this work? Against going through the normal knee jerk reaction of life? If there is no 'me' then what's going on here.

Thank you.

[atmajnani]

Hi Angelfire,

You should be the one to find out the answer using direct experience.
To me the answer is obvious who decided to carry out this work!

You use expressions like

I agree there is only a sense of me

and

the process of personal improvement

and

I know logically I have none (control)

which express total identification with thoughts.
You are not really looking in direct experience using your 5 senses. You only believe in thoughts!

What is the person 'Angel'?
What does she wants to improve?
Why did she came here at LU?
What was the motivation?

There are zoom meetings every week with Vince (an experienced guide) for direct questioning and guidance.
Would you like to join those meetings? It can be helpful.

Warmly,
Atmajnani