Freedom unfettered

[Rube]

Hi Gunnar,

I'm back from a longer break than I expected. May we continue where we left off? Thanks for your understanding.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

That there is any connection is thought. Also, the instructions I am finding difficult to follow, but I did stand in front of a mirror. I forgot to close eyes and feel sensations labelled 'body. I got caught up looking, and thinking, that I forgot too that there are sensation. It was a state of forgetfulness. There was no such thing as cause and effect.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No. I don't know what it was I was seeing or feeling.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Thoughts suggest it.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

The image is quite personal, familiar, but after looking for some time, it's something no ideas touch. There's a lot of ideas.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

No, thoughts identify things and then there is the partial image seen.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Sensations.

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Sensations. I don't feel too engaged with answering because I feel gagged with the answer right in front of me.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Just thoughts

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Just thoughts. The world is a dog's.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

No, It cannot.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Without thought, sensations are spaceless.

Thanks Gunnar

[gmalen]

Rube,

I'm back from a longer break than I expected. May we continue where we left off? Thanks for your understanding.

Yes, np. Welcome back.

Nice looking. I don't have much to add or reflect. When I look into my experience, the same things are seen.

Let's look more closely at awareness now. First, take a stroll around the room and look: is there a walker or is walking happening? As you come back to the screen and read these words now, is there a reader or is reading happening? Is there someone who is aware or is awareness just happening, uncaused by a 'you'? Remember, we are looking into direct experience here, not the thought world. Thoughts are fine, let them pass, but they cannot touch reality in the way we are hoping to.

Is there anything special about consciousness / awareness / the witness? Is it as impersonal and natural as walking, eating, pooping?

As you start to ponder this, take 2-3 minutes to close your eyes and relax, settle into the moment. And then continue on with the inquiries below when your attention is collected:

In direct experience, what is personal about awareness? Where does it have the signature of 'rube'?

Is there someone controlling how awareness moves and functions, where attention is directed?

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

Look out ahead... Is there a seer separate from the seen?

Find a sound in your environment... is there a hearer that hears?

----
Bless up,
Gunnar

[Rube]

Is there anything special about consciousness / awareness / the witness? Is it as impersonal and natural as walking, eating, pooping?

A little caught up in semantics of ‘special’ and ‘natural’. Awareness is here. How it’s so is just granted, which sounds like walking, eating, pooping - things we simply do, natural existence.

I

n direct experience, what is personal about awareness? Where does it have the signature of 'rube'?

There’s no person, so no personal signature.

Is there someone controlling how awareness moves and functions, where attention is directed?

I don’t see awareness moving and cannot locate it. When things come into view there are thoughts. If attention is taking notice of particular things, then one might ask where is the thought is coming from. Thoughts just come of their own accord.

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

I have to think what experiencing experience looks like it doesn't make sense, like to say rather than petting a dog, I am petting the petting of it, the petting is the name, not what is actually done. Not sure I understand entirely. This experience is it, thoughts of it are something else. In direct experience there's no one thing central to it all.

Look out ahead... Is there a seer separate from the seen?

No, strange to see that as a thought.

Find a sound in your environment... is there a hearer that hears?

There isn't

-----------

Thanks Gunnar

[gmalen]

Rube,

Enjoyed you're writing. Things seem clear.

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate, controlling self?

Is there something else which is not clear regarding the belief in a separate self?

Something else you would like to look at?

Here at LU, we offer 'final questions' when someone appears to have crashed the gate. I share your answers with other guides to get their feedback or confirmation in case we've missed something. Are you ready for the final questions?

Gunnnn

[Rube]

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate, controlling self?

I can, easily

Is there something else which is not clear regarding the belief in a separate self?

At this time no, I'm certain

Something else you would like to look at?

I would like to proceed to the final questions, thanks Gunnar for getting me this far. I'm just curious, is that an image of you in your profile picture? Sounds like a trick question now that I read it, but just wasn't certain if it was AI generated or something, the face has a very specific, but general look - can't describe it easily, but it's interesting. Hope that's not too strange a question to ask.

Here at LU, we offer 'final questions' when someone appears to have crashed the gate. I share your answers with other guides to get their feedback or confirmation in case we've missed something. Are you ready for the final questions?

I am, thanks Gunnar!

Gunnnn

[gmalen]

Rube,

I would like to proceed to the final questions, thanks Gunnar for getting me this far. I'm just curious, is that an image of you in your profile picture? Sounds like a trick question now that I read it, but just wasn't certain if it was AI generated or something, the face has a very specific, but general look - can't describe it easily, but it's interesting. Hope that's not too strange a question to ask.

lol! Yes, it is me.

Sweet, here are the questions:

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6. Anything to add?



Blessings,
Gunnar

[Rube]

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Not sure why the second question is asked, for those who think that seeing no separate self is a realization that separates them from whom they once were? Seeing no separate self is just seeing this, no time, no world of things, no selves.

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is the idea that there is a controller at the center of experience, a gap between perceiver and perceived. It starts at the moment of thought, and the thought works by creating a reality of words over the one that exists without them. I see it now as myself typing at the computer.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Thoughts still occur, the same thoughts, repetition. The difference is that the repetition while not entirely broken can be better understood when it's seen that reality itself is not repetitive, but always new if one looks. I don't yet see a marked difference, don't know where to look. I'm a cyclist and when I train I use an electronic device that measures how much effort I am putting out by wattage. Recently I no longer look to gauge how hard I am working, and hardness no longer is hard.

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

The question that begs an answer, for thought asking for more thought, until it's seen nothing is being asked for.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

decision is the belief in the independent self that generates ideas and sees them complete in action. That I am choosing to answer these questions by creating the thought to do so, any elaborate plan or impulsive movement.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

the meaning of intention and decision are so similar, what's the point of semantics? Intention is still the thought that the self is the locus of thought, of purposeful thought. We have good intentions and bad intentions, and are responsible for them, but we don't decide to have them.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

I'm free to do as I please, because any and all thoughts I have, I create. I'm not going to give examples.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

choice is the idea that one decides what they choose.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

control is an idea that certain thoughts can be chosen, and others not.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

thought makes it all happen, that anything happens is thought. That's how it works.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Because I am not responsible does not mean I can act irresponsibly. The two aren't opposites. By acting irresponsibly, I become responsible for what I do. Acting irresponsibly is to mistake the two realities, of labels, and the one without them as the same. I am responsible for not seeing my mother in my neighbor, and my neighbor in a stranger. This is true in direct experience. I am responsible for making a world without labels believable (that it's a matter of thought) and the one with them invisible (that it's as real as whats here).

6. Anything to add?

Thanks you Gunnar. It's been real, truly, thank you!

[gmalen]

Rube,

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Not sure why the second question is asked, for those who think that seeing no separate self is a realization that separates them from whom they once were? Seeing no separate self is just seeing this, no time, no world of things, no selves.

We cannot understand what you mean here. Can you try and answer this again differently?

I'm free to do as I please, because any and all thoughts I have, I create.

I'm not sure what you mean when you write this. Are you describing what the illusion of the thought world is like? Or describing things how you see them in reality?

Either way, please look here with me:

Is there any creator of thoughts?
What is free?
Is there anything that “has thoughts”? Can thoughts have thoughts?

Describe choice & give examples from experience.
choice is the idea that one decides what they choose.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
control is an idea that certain thoughts can be chosen, and others not.

how is he creating thoughts and all the rest of it.

You're touching on what the surface level view of these concepts is, but what is the underlying reality that they are pointing to? What's actually happening when we say 'he made a choice to attend this school over that school' or 'I control what I eat'? Please describe as best and clear with words as you can.

thought makes it all happen, that anything happens is thought. That's how it works.

How does thought make things happen? Would things be happening around you now without thought?


Pz,
Gunnar

[Rube]

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Not sure why the second question is asked, for those who think that seeing no separate self is a realization that separates them from whom they once were? Seeing no separate self is just seeing this, no time, no world of things, no selves.

We cannot understand what you mean here. Can you try and answer this again differently?

Was frustrated and felt like leaning into it, doing so results in a sloppy answer. There is no separate self that can be found when looking in 'direct experience'. The self, me, I is the content of an idea and exists only as such. So perhaps that is a 'way, a shape or a form,' these lending themselves to description with words, but not what is seen in direct experience, without such concepts / labels. I took the question to be asking about 'direct experience' and not thought's content, where I can't locate a self as one might by pointing at something nameable, describing its form, shape, or the way it is. "Was there ever?" read like a trick question, exposing a verbal or intellectual understanding of 'direct experience' by having it admit of a belief of something like 'time', a concept'. So if there was ever a separate entity, thought says so, says that this an inquiry and had a beginning and hopefully an end.

I'm free to do as I please, because any and all thoughts I have, I create.

I'm not sure what you mean when you write this. Are you describing what the illusion of the thought world is like? Or describing things how you see them in reality?

Either way, please look here with me:

Is there any creator of thoughts?
What is free?
Is there anything that “has thoughts”? Can thoughts have thoughts?

I was describing the illusion of the thought world, thank you for simplifying. Freedom is the thought that any and all thoughts are created by a 'self', a 'controller'. It is the thought that the knowing of thought's content is synonymous with its creation. Thoughts come spontaneously without there being an apparent agent or container. That there is 'a thing that has thought' is a thought, in this way thoughts have thoughts, or reflect a belief in them, like reasoning or logic, that states a chair is known as such because it has legs and a back, but thoughts cannot touch what actually is.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.
choice is the idea that one decides what they choose.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
control is an idea that certain thoughts can be chosen, and others not.

how is he creating thoughts and all the rest of it.

You're touching on what the surface level view of these concepts is, but what is the underlying reality that they are pointing to? What's actually happening when we say 'he made a choice to attend this school over that school' or 'I control what I eat'? Please describe as best and clear with words as you can.

All of these are thoughts that verbalize or make an image that there is such a thing, a 'controller', an apparent 'self' that chooses what to think and when. In direct experience, thought just occurs, there's no mechanism I can see in operation, no producer, or vessel that they develop from or in. In the above examples, what is actually happening is what thought says is so, that 'eating' and 'attending school' are happening, that there is an 'I' that chooses and controls what is eaten and which school is attended.

thought makes it all happen, that anything happens is thought. That's how it works.

How does thought make things happen? Would things be happening around you now without thought?

What is here without thought is inconceivable, I don't conceive it, it just is. What can I say happens without recourse to words, to thoughts? How are thoughts coercive, believable? Because we must speak, and to speak we have words, and in our use of words, because we find them useful, we mistake labels for what they simply describe, what is.

[gmalen]

Rube,

You're touching on what the surface level view of these concepts is, but what is the underlying reality that they are pointing to? What's actually happening when we say 'he made a choice to attend this school over that school' or 'I control what I eat'? Please describe as best and clear with words as you can.
All of these are thoughts that verbalize or make an image that there is such a thing, a 'controller', an apparent 'self' that chooses what to think and when. In direct experience, thought just occurs, there's no mechanism I can see in operation, no producer, or vessel that they develop from or in. In the above examples, what is actually happening is what thought says is so, that 'eating' and 'attending school' are happening, that there is an 'I' that chooses and controls what is eaten and which school is attended.

Relating to the examples, you write "what is actually happening is what thought says is so". What do you mean by this?

Also, please clarify what you meant by this in your initial response to the final questions:

"By acting irresponsibly, I become responsible for what I do. Acting irresponsibly is to mistake the two realities, of labels, and the one without them as the same. I am responsible for not seeing my mother in my neighbor, and my neighbor in a stranger. This is true in direct experience. I am responsible for making a world without labels believable..."

Cheers,
Gunn

[gmalen]

Rube,

Hey, just checking in. Let me know what's good, and if you're inclined to respond to those last queries.

Gunn

[Rube]

Thanks for checking in Gunnar and kindness. Took a break. Look forward to your response

Relating to the examples, you write "what is actually happening is what thought says is so". What do you mean by this?

What I mean is that 'what is actually happening' cannot be touched by words, or thought's content at least I struggle to convey or describe it because it becomes, as some might say, 'defiled', that an idea of reality takes the place of what is here from the start, which is not an understanding, or a concept, or thought's content as confirmed by direct experience. The computer before me exists independent of my idea of it. Looking in direct experience there is no computer, no clock ticking, or leg falling asleep, there is not nothing, but what's there? I don't know the answer, except some marker others use, like 'suchness'.

Also, please clarify what you meant by this in your initial response to the final questions:

"By acting irresponsibly, I become responsible for what I do. Acting irresponsibly is to mistake the two realities, of labels, and the one without them as the same. I am responsible for not seeing my mother in my neighbor, and my neighbor in a stranger. This is true in direct experience. I am responsible for making a world without labels believable..."

Cheers,
Gunn

What I mean is that although there is no self responsible for what arises, I cannot deny that thought has content and this can cause harm when there's certain belief without inquiry into direct experience. A man came into the shop where I work and looks and acts differently than other customers, prejudice labels him 'suspicious' and I begin to act and feel differently around him. Even seeing the customer as such at times feels irresponsible when interactions become merely transactional. In direct experience, everything is complete, nothing can be said to to be missing. I feel responsible when I fall back into such a world of parts, where experience is partial like when I see only a needy man keeping me from closing up the shop.

thank you,
Rube

[gmalen]

Rube,

Relating to the examples, you write "what is actually happening is what thought says is so". What do you mean by this?
What I mean is that 'what is actually happening' cannot be touched by words, or thought's content at least I struggle to convey or describe it because it becomes, as some might say, 'defiled', that an idea of reality takes the place of what is here from the start, which is not an understanding, or a concept, or thought's content as confirmed by direct experience. The computer before me exists independent of my idea of it. Looking in direct experience there is no computer, no clock ticking, or leg falling asleep, there is not nothing, but what's there? I don't know the answer, except some marker others use, like 'suchness'.

Thank you for the clarification.

I feel responsible when I fall back into such a world of parts, where experience is partial like when I see only a needy man keeping me from closing up the shop.

What is the experience of being responsible for this 'falling back into such a world of parts'? Are you responsible for these veils/stereotypes/perceptions? Do they come from 'you'? If not, where do they come from?

Blessings,
Gunnar

[Rube]

What is the experience of being responsible for this 'falling back into such a world of parts'? Are you responsible for these veils/stereotypes/perceptions? Do they come from 'you'? If not, where do they come from?

Blessings,
Gunnar

The experience is of discontent and the thought that wishes to somehow escape the situation or for it to end, which are strong enough that it's easy to stop looking in direct experience and flee, check out. I don't know where these ideas come from. I cannot find a self responsible for their generation in direct experience. So there's a thought that wishes to understand that though one is responsible for nothing, it cannot be understood that they are free to do whatever they please with this 'misunderstanding' of being absolved of responsibility. I feel responsible still for being of help, looking in direct experience, encouraging a state of inquiry, learning. I'm not responsible for these wishes as I can't say from where they come.

[gmalen]

Hey Rube,

Thanks for the message, still interacting with other guides trying to assess your writing. As I see it, we're struggling to decipher whether some of your writing is referring to the illusion of self or what you believe to be reality/true.

I'll be back in touch in the coming days.
Gunnar