Identity vs Who am I

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Fri Feb 02, 2024 2:04 am

Hi Kat,
Is this closer to what you were hoping I would observe in the present?
Yes nice looking! The exercise is used to differentiate between direct experience and beliefs or labeling.

Is there anything other than the present?


Let's try another exercise -

Sit quietly for a15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice....

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?


Try the exercise with a relaxed curiosity, just look at what is happening.

Look forward to hearing from you :)

Jana

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pennylane
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:29 am

Is there anything other than the present?
There is nothing concrete other than the present.
Where are they coming from and going to?
They are coming from nowhere. They are not going anywhere.
But they may be translated into speech and communicated through sound to comprise someone else's experience.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No. But conversation does affect them.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
No. I cannot control them or their content.

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Sat Feb 03, 2024 4:03 am

Hi Kat,
There is nothing concrete other than the present.
What do you mean by "concrete"?
But they may be translated into speech and communicated through sound to comprise someone else's experience.
Interesting thought, is that what happened in direct experience while doing the exercise? Or did thoughts just arise?

What does it feel like to see that thoughts come and go, that there is no controller of thoughts?

Is there a doer or a chooser or a self responsible for anything?

Please answer from sensations and experience.. not from thinking, don't refer to any thought or memory. Just sit and notice is there a doer or is there a self choosing and controlling the next thought or action? Or does it just happen.

Warmly
Jana

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pennylane
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Sat Feb 03, 2024 6:51 am

What do you mean by "concrete"?
There is no evidence to point to about the past or the future. It is abstract and exists only in the realm of thought (via memories or plans). If coming from a place of direct experience, one cannot have direct experience of the past or the future. Direct experience only exists in the present, right now.
Interesting thought, is that what happened in direct experience while doing the exercise? Or did thoughts just arise?
During the exercise my son knocked on my door which affected the flow of thoughts. The thoughts that followed his communication through speech upon entering the room became relevant to his questions. His interruption became a part of my direct experience. But my thoughts just arose. They became relevant to his query but were not directed.
What does it feel like to see that thoughts come and go, that there is no controller of thoughts?
Unsettling at first. Annoying that they are so loud if I focus on them. It is interesting that I cannot control their content. They flow as if disconnected from anything.
Is there a doer or a chooser or a self responsible for anything?
No. Thoughts just pop into my head without any way of knowing what the next thought will be. There is no director of these thoughts. They simply come and go on their own.

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:19 am

Hi Kat,

Thank you for your honesty, you are looking very closely. Now that it's clear that thoughts arise and Kat doesn't control the thoughts, let's look closer at the self.

If you write down "I" on a piece of paper and say it slowly over and over, is that "you"?

Try it with:

Kat
Self
Me
Human

Sit quietly and point with your finger to where you are? Where did you point? If you found what feels like you describe it in great detail, it's location, size, color.

If you need to take a day longer to sit and look please do that, don't feel the need to rush through these exercises. I feel you are looking sincerely so I want you to get the most benefit out of it.

Great hearing from you
Jana

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pennylane
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Tue Feb 06, 2024 2:58 am

Firstly, let me say thank you Jana for your patience with this long treatise of explanation.
Sit quietly and point with your finger to where you are? Where did you point?
I really had nowhere concrete to point to but I pointed back towards my body because I do believe that there is <something> that exists temporarily bound to our bodies that persists after our bodies cease to function. You might call it a soul. You might call it a self. You might just call it free energy.

But I understand what you are getting at with this exercise. You want me to realize that there is no direct evidence of a self by seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, or smelling. That is absolutely true. Further I am to realize that thoughts seem to come and go organically quite outside any direct control and there is no way to know what thought may arise next. Yes, also true. I cannot rely on any of those things to describe "me".

However, here is why I have spent an extra day on this exercise. Because I think there is a sixth sense that comprises the realm of direct experience. The sixth sense I'll call "metaphysical feel". This sense is the one that surrounds us, a collective empathy. It is the sense that you might have in a busy barroom that someone across the bar behind you is staring at you and when you turn to look, indeed someone is. This is the sense that when you think of someone you miss very hard and try to send them a message using only your mind, you instantly get a text message or your phone rings and it is that person. Your message was received. This is the sense that causes you to cry before you were made aware that your mother had died 1000 miles away. And then your uncle calls to give you the bad news. There is a sixth sense and we haven't talked about it at all yet.

You might say, oh, well, that is merely your imagination making up stories. Or coincidence. But I say, no. It is something else. In asking me to describe this I am forced to translate the phenomena into a story because I must form thoughts to type these observations into a computer screen.

But while I can't describe "me" or "Kat" or "Self" in terms of image/color, sound, taste, smell, or touch, I can describe it as metaphysical feel. It's not merely an emotion as it definitely manifests. I don't know if you have ever witnessed someone die, but I have seen <something> leave the body of the person and fly through the air <shoo, whoosh> up and away. The "self" perhaps is this electromagnetic field, a free energy, leashed to the biochemical processes in our bodies that surrounds us in time and space connecting ultimately all living things throughout the earthly realm.

It is not directly observable in terms of the five senses in the same way that six dimensions are not observable in a three dimensional Newtonian physical world. Our five senses are limited.

During this exercise I also experimented with observations about sleep and dreams. I was listening to a book recording and fell asleep. My thoughts stopped. Or I don't remember them during that time. Where did they go? The sound of the book being read was still there. Then my first thought when I awoke was.... how long have I been asleep? I looked at the book counter. It was about 5 minutes. I rewound and began again, fell asleep again. Thoughts stopped. I awoke and my first thought again was.... how long have I been asleep? Again about 5 minutes. This happened a third time and at that point I gave up and went to sleep. But during the night, I had a dream. This one is a recurring dream for me. I am being pursued by an attacker and I need to run to get away. But my feet are like lead. I can't run fast enough. My pursuer is catching me and I am helpless to run quick enough to get away. In this case, perhaps I can't run because I am in my bed. My brain can't control my legs to run away as it normally would be able to do. But this tells me that my dream thoughts are still connecting on some level to my physical body even if I cannot point to a "me" creating those thoughts or a "me" then attempting in vain to control my body to allow me to successfully evade the attacker I think in my dream is pursuing me.

You want honesty. So here you go. I think I have an idea what you want me to discover. But I have discovered many things over the course of my life that have a direct experience component but cannot be seen, heard, smelled, touched, or tasted, and are otherwise completely unexplainable. So I need further convincing to reach a conclusion that there is no entity tied to my existence that could simply be defined in language as "self" or "me".

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:06 pm

Hi Kat,

I appreciate the honesty and your sharing.

I'm starting at the end :)
So I need further convincing to reach a conclusion that there is no entity tied to my existence that could simply be defined in language as "self" or "me".
As a guide at LU, I'm not here to convince you and it's not about reaching a conclusion with your mind. This is not a mind trick or learning something new and special. This is about noticing the experience of it all unfolding without a self controlling and doing..

In your examples of feeling someone looking at you and turning or getting a phone call from a missed loved one. Is it "you" doing it?
Is there some other causality or is that the mind making a cause effect relationship?
Or does it feel more true to just feel the body turn and look?
The phone rings, it's the friend you have been thinking of, then the mind grabs on to say "she got my message". How many events, arisings and happenings are at play for the phone to ring?

There are arisings happening, life is always lifing, it is lifing in the phone call from an old friend that has been on your mind, in the unexpected shocking surprising death and in the feeling in your gut when something is just not quite "right".
There is an energy and an aliveness that's here...

Let's look at labels and reality

Label-Reality Correlation
There is often a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'GREEN' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

warmly,
Jana

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pennylane
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:15 am

In your examples of feeling someone looking at you and turning or getting a phone call from a missed loved one. Is it "you" doing it?
The feeling is a direct experience in the present. It is something observable just like seeing something and noting it's image/color. Is it "me" doing it? No. But there is a feel. I am having difficulty understanding now what is different between this and observing something seen. The experience happens, the thought arises tied to the experience (the experience is now being labeled), and then the body responds to the thought. I think I understand what you are saying here.
Is there some other causality or is that the mind making a cause effect relationship?
The feel is a directly experienced phenomena and observable. It is a feel, like see, touch, taste, smell, or hear. I gave examples, perhaps poor ones, but this is observable sitting quietly and allowing the feel to manifest in the present before the thoughts arise to label it.

But I understand what you are getting at here as well. The events just happen and if confined strictly to direct observation they have no connection to one another without the mind making the connection.
Or does it feel more true to just feel the body turn and look?
The body turns to look as a consequence of the thought generated by the feel. Just as in the dream the frustration of not being able to evade a pursuer, the dream state thought tries to get the body to respond, but it cannot because it is not reachable in that moment and confined to the bed. I'm not sure what you mean by "true". That is the observable action. The body turns and looks. I guess again, you are saying that my thoughts are making the connection between the thought and the body turning. That if I confine myself to not thinking, only observing, there would be no thought. The body would just turn seemingly without reason.
The phone rings, it's the friend you have been thinking of, then the mind grabs on to say "she got my message". How many events, arisings and happenings are at play for the phone to ring?
Many. Yes, this could just be a coincidence, and the mind is connecting the events. If I don't think, the events just happen completely disconnected from one another.
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
The label is tied to language and requires thought to process. So this is a label in language used to conjure a memory of a past experience. The mind understands what the label means though it is not necessarily being observed in the present. How would you describe the color "GREEN" to a person who has been blind since birth? It would be difficult because the person has never had the direct experience to understand what the label means. Using red to color the text doesn't change the meaning of the word (label) itself. It only changes how the mind processes it. The image/color is red, but the label describes something experienced that has been stored in memory. So red is the direct experience seen, but the thought is of green.
Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
The color red is seen. It is the color experienced.
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
The label "GREEN" is merely a language construct to describe something observable. If redefined it could be made to describe something else, even the color red. A label is used to connect direct experience to thoughts. The label is used to think about something observed. It is not the something observed itself. In this case, it suggests something other than what is being observed.
Is 'GREEN' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
GREEN is not associated with the experience of the color red. GREEN is, however, associated with the experience of the color green. That is how it is defined. When communicated, others who have experienced the color green can understand it. To learn what the label means, the label must be communicated when the experience is happening in the present. Someone who has never experienced the color green cannot understand the label. It is meaningless without the direct experience that previously connected it to the label.
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
No because the red has nothing to do with the label GREEN. Or GOOD. Or BAD. The red is what the eye sees in the present. GREEN is used to conjure from memory something that was previously seen. The labels do not affect reality. They are used to communicate, which requires thinking.

The thing that is really hard for me about this is that there is no way to observe something and then describe it in text without processing it through thoughts first. The direct experience cannot be described independently from thought. But the direct experience can be observed independently of thought. In so doing, why would the body respond to it at all?

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:21 am

Hi Kat,


The thing that is really hard for me about this is that there is no way to observe something and then describe it in text without processing it through thoughts first.
How exactly does the act of processing happen in DE?
Can a thought do something? Can a thought process itself or another thought?
Is processing something other than thinking? If so can you describe it in detail?


One thing to look at Kat, is what do you really really want?

Warmly :)
Jana

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pennylane
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:11 am

How exactly does the act of processing happen in DE?
Can a thought do something? Can a thought process itself or another thought?
Is processing something other than thinking? If so can you describe it in detail?
It is the same as thinking. But direct experience is just the body experiencing the input, no? Language and thoughts are bound. Communicating something to someone else requires translating an experience into language. Then it leaves the realm of direct experience and becomes a story... something described using labels.

I don't know how the thoughts arise from the experienced event. They do just seem to materialize from nowhere. But in order to type a description, thoughts are happening about it so that the experience may be translated into language. However, it seems possible to experience something without needing to think about it.

There is something major I am missing in my understanding of direct experience vs thought/language vs action/body response. They do seem linked to me. Is there a "self" driving it? Am "I" driving it? Maybe not. But what links them?

The action/body response could be involuntary and that would not be thinking about it. The thoughts could arise without an event such as in a dream. And direct experience events occur without needing thoughts or actions, organically. They just happen. But nevertheless DE, thoughts, and actions usually follow from one to another. There is a relationship.

I am trying to understand your prompts. Thank you for your patience.
One thing to look at Kat, is what do you really really want?
Purpose. But if there is no purpose, then I want truth. I would like to discover the truth about my origins and destiny, who I am.

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:08 am

Hi Kat,

Let's look at this closely in experience.
They do seem linked to me. Is there a "self" driving it? Am "I" driving it? Maybe not. But what links them?
In your experience is there a me or self that is "driving" it? Is there a real me/self, something apart from another thought about a me/self that is linking and driving and processing?

Just sit quietly and look, I like the phrase.. look from the looking.

You are so welcome Kat

warmly
Jana

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pennylane
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:01 am

In your experience is there a me or self that is "driving" it? Is there a real me/self, something apart from another thought about a me/self that is linking and driving and processing?
I don't know what correlates the three. There is no "me"/"self" causing the experienced events. They just happen. There is no "me"/"self" causing the thoughts. They just materialize. I have no control over them. There is no "me"/"self" directing the body that I can tell. The body just does its thing.

But the three are often correlated. Example: (1) Direct experience of growling dog running towards body (2) Thought that the dog is attacking and will do harm to the body (3) Body reacts and evades dog. Is there a "me"/"self" that is involved in the event, the thoughts or the body reacting? No. But the DE, is followed by the thought, is followed by the body reaction to a particular stimulus. There is a definite correlation. Each of these things is not randomly independent. So what causes the correlation? What establishes the progression?

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Tue Feb 13, 2024 2:37 am

Hi again Kat,

There is a definite correlation. Each of these things is not randomly independent. So what causes the correlation? What establishes the progression?


I've had the experience of mistaking a rope for a snake and the body will jump as though there is a snake. I would say it's survival, there's no time to think, a startle response and then the mind labeling the snake or the attacking dog. We don't seek to get rid of that mechanism, you couldn't if you tried, it's useful to pull the hand away from the fire without having to think about it. The body takes care of you without the mind.

Try this exercise and let me know how it goes..

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Remember to answer from Direct Experience, not thoughts.

warmly
Jana

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pennylane
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:50 am

I've had the experience of mistaking a rope for a snake and the body will jump as though there is a snake.
But a thought programmed this reaction because you'd have to have encountered a snake to recognize the shape and position as such. It would be connected to a memory. Would a baby know to startle this way? Probably not if the rope is lying still, though the baby may involuntarily startle due to a rapid threatening movement. But the baby would not associate the rope with a snake. That began in the land of thoughts. So how does such a reaction later become involuntary and tied to survival?

That pondered, though, this was a fascinating experiment. Obviously the exercise begins with thoughts because the exercise instructions must be read and the mind plays the sound of the language communication within a thought. This is what begins the body's action. It would never take place without thinking about the instructions.

How did I pick the hand? It was, just logically, the one most free and available, but I didn't consciously make any decision. I just shot my right hand out palm down. I had no thought about specifically which hand. None. Could the sub-conscious mind be controlling it? Obviously if my nerves were severed such that my hand was paralyzed it would not be able to react.

I don't know how the movement is controlled. It is almost as if the body has taken the complex instructions and now acts on its own, no need of any thoughts. "I" am not doing it. Nor does the turning of it have an identifiable controller or actor. There was no decision to turn the hand over but somehow the instructions are being followed. I also did not think about when to turn the hand. It just happened. It turned at its own cadence without any conscious thought.

Fascinating.

But while the body can have involuntary action, it also often directly follows a thought. In this case, the thought of the instructions began the exercise. But then the body seems to take over.

I had a very interesting experience on an airplane recently. I was falling asleep and my head started to relax downward. My glasses were perched atop my head and when it drooped, the glasses fell. My right hand shot out and caught them, perfectly, by the right side of the frame, so perfectly in fact that the 20 year old guy sitting next to me laughed with delight at the middle-aged lady's lightning-fast reaction time. My eyes opened then seeing the glasses in my hand and the guy laughing. There was no thought to catching them. The body just received the direct experience of them falling from my head and reacted, with perfect precision, to catch them. It was quite something to behold. I thought about it afterwards. How odd!

This is really fun. Thank you for being my guide.

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:30 pm

Hi Kat,
Would a baby know to startle this way? Probably not if the rope is lying still, though the baby may involuntarily startle due to a rapid threatening movement.
yes agreed, and it has been shown that babies eyes dilate very large when shown a picture of a snake, but not at a picture of a knife for example. Evolution likely dictates.. avoiding a snake is related to survival, a knife maybe or maybe not.
Nor does the turning of it have an identifiable controller or actor. There was no decision to turn the hand over but somehow the instructions are being followed. I also did not think about when to turn the hand. It just happened. It turned at its own cadence without any conscious thought.
Fascinating.

Yes it is :)
I had a very interesting experience on an airplane recently. I was falling asleep and my head started to relax downward. My glasses were perched atop my head and when it drooped, the glasses fell. My right hand shot out and caught them, perfectly, by the right side of the frame, so perfectly in fact that the 20 year old guy sitting next to me laughed with delight at the middle-aged lady's lightning-fast reaction time. My eyes opened then seeing the glasses in my hand and the guy laughing. There was no thought to catching them. The body just received the direct experience of them falling from my head and reacted, with perfect precision, to catch them. It was quite something to behold. I thought about it afterwards. How odd!
Thank you for sharing.. yes this is just how it is :)

I'm wondering Kat, if you reflect back on the question that we started with.. What comes up when reading that there is no "separate self," never has been & never will be? It is all a made up story.
How does it feel in the body to sit with that sentence, answer from Direct Experience.

It's a joy to work with you Kat, I appreciate your earnest looking..
Warmly
Jana


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