Seeking help getting to the exit door

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:46 am

Sorry for the delayed response, and thank you for the link. That's something that needs another, closer look.
I wonder if the doubt is in thinking your experience has to fit a certain mold. You don't trust your own experience, so you go outside for validation. Once you find it, you are allowed to feel that things are OK.
You are absolutely correct, except that external validation doesn't seem to help much, or for long. I need to learn to trust my own experience. I'm taking steps towards that, but it's not coming easily. What do you suggest?
That's why it would be good not engage in too much material on this, but instead rely on your first-hand experience and intuition.
It may seem obvious, but what does it look like, to rely on one's own experience? I've set aside a lot of the other material on this for the time being. I like to take part in the groups on POK, but I set aside the book by Angelo Dilullo, and haven't resumed Pernille's videos. Between my wife in the hospital, then being sick, they went by the wayside. Haven't really resumed, so putting it on hold now.

Maybe an unnecessary question, but how does one even approach the 2nd fetter?

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Bluejay
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Bluejay » Sat Jan 20, 2024 9:15 am

Did you ever answer the questions in the 'sense of self' pointer?
You are absolutely correct, except that external validation doesn't seem to help much, or for long. I need to learn to trust my own experience. I'm taking steps towards that, but it's not coming easily. What do you suggest?
No, so external validation is only there for you to doubt yourself, to perhaps see that you're not doing it right?
Maybe an unnecessary question, but how does one even approach the 2nd fetter?
Can you share a few of the doubt thoughts? What is the doubt about?
It may seem obvious, but what does it look like, to rely on one's own experience?
One way of putting it is to rely on the body instead of mind, knowledge, and thinking.

Here's an exercise you can experiment with:

Body Exercise - Inner GPS

Your body naturally navigates life, and gives you data on what it resonates with and what it doesn’t.

For example, have you ever had a ‘gut feeling’ that you shouldn’t do something, and you did it anyway?

Or maybe you felt like doing something that made no logical sense, but it led to exactly what you needed at that time in your life?

It may not make sense logically, but the body knows more than we are aware of.

These yes/no signals often come as expansion/contraction, light/heavy, open/closed, but they may be different for you.

They can happen spontaneously or need time to become clear (a sign that you need time is that you think you need to be faster).

What I’d like you to do for next day is this:

1. Tell your mind that you will conduct an experiment for 24 hours, and that things will return to normal after that if appropriate (this is to get some space and focus on the body)

2. As often as you can, pay attention to what your body feels drawn to do. If it isn’t convenient to do this for all decisions, then do it for small ones, or whenever you can.

(If you have a hard time connecting to your body, just do your best. Look at this as an experiment and play with it.)

3. Pay attention to how your inner GPS communicates with you. Where is it in your body? What does it feel like? Is it instant or does it require time? (focus on direct experience)

4. Also notice how thoughts about self affect the body. What do you find?

If you experience thoughts such as:

- “This doesn’t work”
- “Why are you doing this?”
- “This is silly”
- “This is unsafe”

Tell your mind that you’re just doing it for 24 hours to see what it’s like.

What happened? Report back what you discover.

Let me know if you have any questions :)

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:04 am

Henri,

Just seeing this. Came down with something on Monday, been in bed a lot, most of the last three days. Haven't been sick in years, guess I was overdue.

Copied what you sent above, and printed it out. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have my energy back and can begin this.

Watched the videos. Regarding "Falling" there were some things in there that correspond with my experience, much didn't, such as the "old way no longer makes sense, the way isn't stable yet", "lost beliefs hanging", 'letting beliefs surface' and 'holding onto beliefs'. I guess it's like the old 12 Step adage, take what works and leave what doesn't?

Something else she mentioned in "Falling" she mentioned was a good reminder. She mentioned when spaciousness opens up, just resting in it. While laying in bed this morning and afternoon, something interesting happened. For hours there was this state of seeing even more deeply how there truly isn't a personal or core self. Everything was impersonal, meaning there wasn't a sense of personal connection to my body, the sound of my voice, etc. As well, there was a very strong understand of how opinions and beliefs are not and con not be true. It was impossible to form or express an opinion, it seemed so absurd. I can still feel/see that, all though it's not as intense or overwhelming as it was earlier today.

More soon.

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Bluejay
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Bluejay » Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:30 am

Copied what you sent above, and printed it out. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have my energy back and can begin this.
👍
I guess it's like the old 12 Step adage, take what works and leave what doesn't?
Yup, exactly.
Something else she mentioned in "Falling" she mentioned was a good reminder. She mentioned when spaciousness opens up, just resting in it. While laying in bed this morning and afternoon, something interesting happened. For hours there was this state of seeing even more deeply how there truly isn't a personal or core self. Everything was impersonal, meaning there wasn't a sense of personal connection to my body, the sound of my voice, etc. As well, there was a very strong understand of how opinions and beliefs are not and con not be true. It was impossible to form or express an opinion, it seemed so absurd. I can still feel/see that, all though it's not as intense or overwhelming as it was earlier today.
Yes! :)

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:34 pm

Henri,

Sorry to drop out on you. What I thought was a sinus infection, turned out to be covid. I'm just now getting back on my feet. I printed out your suggestion and will be trying this experiment for twenty-four hours.

D

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Bluejay
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Bluejay » Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:41 am

OK 👍

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:59 pm

Seems worth saying; I won't simply drop out on you. If I were to stop this, I'd talk to you about it first. Having said that, I can't think of a reason why I would. I've only been actively pursuing this since 2014...

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Bluejay
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Bluejay » Sat Feb 03, 2024 3:30 pm

No worries, Darrell! :)

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Thu Feb 08, 2024 3:53 am

Hey Henri,

I've decided to extend your idea indefinitely. Twenty-four hours wasn't enough, because it requires remembering to do it.
It stillrequires remembering to do it, but I do remember to follow that hunch in the body. I had one really obvious experience with it this week. It was over something really insignificant. I was trying to decide which cabinet simulator to buy to go into my recording interface. Opinions all over the internet are really mixed, but I got a really strong body sense to go with one that was sort of a dark horse, and not the obvious choice. So I went with it. We'll see how it works out.

I had some experience with this in recent months. Back in November I inadvertently got in touch with someone I knew really well through all of the 90s. But I sort of fell out with him, because he could be really unpleasant and difficult at times, in spite of having really helped me in significant ways with the direction my life was taking then. So when I got an email from him, I had this really strong feeling in the body of "NO". Coincidentally (or not) this happened when I was studying Pernille Damore's video about the "body yes/body no". So I ignored it until a few weeks ago. I responded to him, and we got in touch by text. We went back and forth, and at one point he became really arrogant, condescending and derisive. This on top of the entire exchange being rather weird. After he just dumped on me in that really overt way, I realized that "body no" feeling had been right all along.

This has been valuable, and as well, I realize I had this ability, if that's what we should call it, as a young kid and teen. It got swept aside over the years. So I'm slowly coming back to and cultivating something I have known to be true and reliable in the past. I'm going to keep paying attention and following the body.

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Thu Feb 08, 2024 3:59 am

Weird that most of it is in italics. Is there a way to edit or delete posts? No big deal, but that doesn't seem easy to read.

Oh well...

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Bluejay
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Bluejay » Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:41 am

This has been valuable, and as well, I realize I had this ability, if that's what we should call it, as a young kid and teen. It got swept aside over the years. So I'm slowly coming back to and cultivating something I have known to be true and reliable in the past. I'm going to keep paying attention and following the body.
Excellent. Yes, it tends to get swept to the side.

Something to remember is that the body yes/no doesn't guarantee good outcomes. Sometimes there's no way of knowing why there is a no or a yes, but in time the trust builds and that's how life unfolds.

I was going to suggest you keep exploring this, so I'm glad to hear you're already on it.

Now let's get back to the sense of self questions (part 1).

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, etc)

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Thu Feb 15, 2024 6:59 pm

Henri,

I apologize for not being more consistent since you started with me. You know I was sick a few weeks back, and I thought I should mention that since my wife was admitted to the hospital in December, it's been one thing after another. In the last two weeks, she has been in the ER twice, and in the hospital a total of three times, once for a procedure (ablation) which came close to killing her, then back in the hospital this week with complications, and also from having come down with pneumonia and an infection. I didn't want to you to think I was forgetting, blowing things off, etc. I would imagine some people sign on for this, and then don't give this the time and attention it deserves or needs.

Okay, so having said that, I've been making it a point to try to use all of these things that have been going on as opportunities for inquiry. I remind myself to let the body lead, to pay attention to what it is pointing to, and let it guide decision making. It frequently is forgotten, but it still comes to mind occasionally, so I expect it's just going to take time to be mindful of it more often. I wonder if trying to put thought aside might be helpful in bringing the body to the front of attention?

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Thu Feb 15, 2024 7:13 pm

As to the questions -

Does the sense of self have a location?

It varies. Frequently it seems to be in the head, or the general area of the head. I know that isn't "me" or a self, especially when I look at it directly, consciously.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No, not really. It is vaguely generalized. It's experienced more as a 'hereness' or sense of being centrally located. There's something in 'here' seeing 'out there'.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

Not sure. If anything, it seems to convey a sense of 'here'.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Difficult to say. It seems like it's a bodily sense. Possibly a slight contraction, to the turning of attention back to 'here'. Possibly very quick and extremely subtle mental talk or mental images. So quick they can barely be noticed.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, etc)

Again, not sure. Seems like contraction, or the body sense; the basic 'aliveness' that is in the body are taken as characteristics or attributes of this self.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Seems it is made of thoughts, mental talk, contractions and sensations in the body.

What is found?

I'm not sure what you mean with that question.

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Bluejay
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Bluejay » Fri Feb 16, 2024 8:59 am

I didn't want to you to think I was forgetting, blowing things off, etc. I would imagine some people sign on for this, and then don't give this the time and attention it deserves or needs.
No problem, Darrell. No need to keep reassuring me. It sounds like you're going through a very challenging time, so do what you can :)
Okay, so having said that, I've been making it a point to try to use all of these things that have been going on as opportunities for inquiry. I remind myself to let the body lead, to pay attention to what it is pointing to, and let it guide decision making. It frequently is forgotten, but it still comes to mind occasionally, so I expect it's just going to take time to be mindful of it more often. I wonder if trying to put thought aside might be helpful in bringing the body to the front of attention?
Try it and see what happens. Thought is not really needed in this case.
It varies. Frequently it seems to be in the head, or the general area of the head. I know that isn't "me" or a self, especially when I look at it directly, consciously.
Okay, so now let's explore your answers in direct experience. And this practice you can do whenever. In fact, I recommend you do it during the day when selfing pops up.

We have direct experience, which is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling + thought.

When there is a sense of self, separate it into the senses that are involved, and inquire into each sense.

For example, let's say I feel a sense of self behind the eyes, or in the head in your case, and there's a thought 'this is me'. I would inquire:

Sense of self behind the eyes = sensation = are these sensations the self?
Thought 'this is me' = thought = is this thought the self?
Image of self behind the eyes = thought = is this image the self?

Objections will likely rise up. If so, keep inquiring into those, such as 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here'.

Thought 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here' = thought = is that thought the self?

Then maybe there's a feeling/contraction in the chest, so you inquire into that. Are those sensations the self? Where is it?

If you end up in a quiet place, rest there. Remember, no answer is the answer. There is no answer possible from thought. This needs to be felt into and repeated over and over.

Basically we are trying to find this self that is constantly being referred back to.

Enjoy and let me know if you have any questions :)

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:58 pm

Henri,

I've been working with the questions, and there's something I'm wondering about. When working with the questions you provided me with in your last post, I find myself getting stuck on this knowing thing. Not sure what else to call it. It might look like this -

I'll notice seeing, or a contraction is taken as "me" and I inquire into that, and in doing so, I notice that something knows there's seeing, a contraction, a thought, etc, but then it's noticed that something that can't be pinned down knows the sensation is there, is happening. When I inquire as to whether this knowing/knower that knows the sensation is there is the self, I can't even find or pin down this knowing capacity.

It reminds me of something Ajahn Sumedho once said about this. He said how he wasn't his name, his personal history, etc. That if he was anything, he was this awareness, this thing that knows. I'm not taking that as necessarily true, the problem with this is trying to inquire into something being a self/"me", etc, when you can see it's there, yet when I go looking for it, it is nowhere to be found.


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