Has the Gate been crossed?

[Anastacia42]

Your replies triggered a lot of discussion & questions. Let's start with these:

Stacy. it might be interesting to ask him to elaborate on part of his answer to Q1 when he states: “Still, deep down the knowing remains, allowing to better handle such situations and quicker de-identify.”

“What is this knowing?
Where is it?
What is the feeling (sensation and thought) that it imparts?

Loving

[P5yx]

Hello Stacy,

Your replies triggered a lot of discussion & questions.

Great, that is what I was hoping for. :)

What is this knowing?

Great question! Upon deeper investigation, it's just a memory (thought) of the "event", during which I had this (supposedly) non-conceptual insight.

During that "event" it was more like a direct seeing that I and all things around me are overlayed by concepts. I could see that these mental concepts overlay the sense fields (kind of like a veil). E.g., I could see that a car passes and it was seen that in reality only colors change but thought interprets this color change as of a car driving by.

So it's not really a knowing, it's more like a remembrance (thought) of that seeing (during the event).

When being confronted with "negative emotions", this remembrance, enables me to distance from the illusion of the separate self. But this might all be just a new belief!

Where is it?

I guess in thought only. It's a replay of the insight I had a few weeks ago.

What is the feeling (sensation and thought) that it imparts?

Hard to say, as it feels mostly neutral. If I had to pick, I would probably choose relief. Relief from suffering and inauthenticity. It kind of allows for letting go of control and simply be.


Loving

[Anastacia42]

Hi

Your replies triggered a lot of discussion & questions.
Great, that is what I was hoping for. :)

Hopefully your kidding When a client's replies are clear, we post one word.

Mostly, you're seeing this clearly, but...

What is the feeling (sensation and thought) that it imparts?
Hard to say, as it feels mostly neutral. If I had to pick, I would probably choose relief. Relief from suffering and inauthenticity. It kind of allows for letting go of control and simply be.

Okay, relief is a thought. a label. What is the Sensation?



As I mentioned, there were lots of questions. Mostly, because of your doubt. Would you like for us to wrap up here and go explore that in telecomferences with other people who have gone through the gate and some who have not? Or do you want to keep going here?

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

You could start attending those now.

Loving

[Anastacia42]

PS Ilona's group is Sunday, February 4th. I recommend starting there.

Write to her for access.

[P5yx]

Hopefully your kidding When a client's replies are clear, we post one word.

I was certainly not kidding! I much prefer receiving doubts and further questions than fool myself having crossed the Gate while I haven't. That was the exact reason for starting an inquiry at LU in the first place.

Okay, relief is a thought. a label. What is the Sensation?

It's not like there would be a specific sensation but rather reducing sensations of heaviness, which can be felt mostly in the heart region but also slightly in the head and throat.

Would you like for us to wrap up here and go explore that in telecomferences with other people who have gone through the gate and some who have not? Or do you want to keep going her.

I prefer continuing with the inquiry and dig deeper. If it's possible, I might additionally attend to some of the proposed online meetings but I prefer the one-on-one guidance.


Loving

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

I had no doubts and don't feel I guide through them very well, but let's see how it goes.

Let's move on with this pointer:



Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

[P5yx]

Hey Stacy,

I had no doubts and don't feel I guide through them very well, but let's see how it goes.

I see. Maybe I'm overcomplicating things here. It's just that I expected that having the initial shift would not leave any room for doubts. It would be fine for me switching guides when ever you come to the conclusion that you cannot point any further. Maybe there is someone else who can see something that we might miss here. Of course, I'm also fine with continuing the inquiry with you. I leave it to you, as you certainly know better when there is the time to switch.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

I think we might be onto something here! The exercise was really difficult to do. Mind came in with a lot of distracting thoughts. Especially thoughts containing a mental body image. I felt a lot of stress, restlessness, and resistance going through the exercise. There was a constant urge to stop looking and simply write the "correct" answer ("there is only sensations") instead of referring to direct experience.

With that said, I found that there indeed is a sense of self remaining. With eyes closed, attention per default rests on the sensations labeled "eyes" or "head". Consequently, these sensations seem to build the center of experience, a reference point. This reference point still seems to be the location of a sense of self. Upon investigation, it is seen that these are only sensations while the sense of self shifts behind these sensations from where it witnesses these very sensations (and mental images of the head). With eyes opened this reference point seems to be enforced even more, as the eyes seem to be in the center of the field of vision. In a way, the sense of self seems to be the looking. But only when putting attention on the looking. Per default, the sense of self seems to be located at the reference point.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Sensations of the limbs seem to be further away from "me" (the reference point described above), introducing "space" between them. In that way, all I can say is that the sensations do not seem to occur at the exact same location. Also, they do not seem to be a single point but rather an area. Still, when looking for the body's size only a thought of the body image arises.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

The body does neither have weight nor volume. Without thought, all I can find are raw sensations that do not posses weight or volume. Both weight and volume are mere mental concepts.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Instantly thoughts showing the body image arise when looking at the sensations. These thoughts are stubborn and often re-arise, putting the sensations into a form/shape. When plainly looking at sensations, these do not seem to have a form/shape.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

Thought inserts an image of my pants, suggesting something covering the legs. Focusing on the contact points shows only on single sensation between leg and pants. So no boundary.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Thought inserts the image of the body sitting on a chair, suggesting a boundary. Focusing on the contact point between body and chair revealed it is only one single sensation. So no boundary.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Without thought, there are just sensations. Inside and outside are just related to the mental body image presented by thought.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

It does not refer to anything. It's just a thought or internal sound.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

With eyes closed, a mental image that overlays the sensations.


Loving

[Anastacia42]

Yes doubts usually drop st the same time, but not always. Let's see how it goes for a little while.

Yes. No boundary. No body

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
With eyes closed, a mental image that overlays the sensations.

Mental images are NOT ACTUAL. Only the 5 senses are.

Only Sensations are ACTUAL.

But you've basically got it. Now try this:


Deeper Body Investigation

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.

Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Loving,

[P5yx]

Upfront, my apologies for answering in more detail here but I can see that there are some false beliefs in play and I want to clearly transmit what I'm experiencing.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

I could not find any connection. Not even thoughts that suggest so. The mirror image is not "me". It's farther away from "me".

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Not in DE but only in thought as a believe that the mirror image can only move when "my" arm moves. Furthermore, I tried to find out if the sensations labeled "hand" did stay at the same location and it only appears as a movement due to other sensations appearing (e.g., sensations labeled "arm") or if they indeed change location. Interestingly, it seems (not 100% sure) as if the sensations of the hand do not move at all but only the image of the hand in the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Interesting. The sensation labeled "hand" does not seem to change during the movement. Not even in location as when strictly focusing on the sensations labeled "hand", there is nothing else. No reference point in whose relation the sensations could move. For clearly seeing that, effort is required. Without effort, sensations are always put into relation with the sensations labeled "eyes" or "head".

Starting the exercise, I would have said that there is definitely a connection between the image labeled "hand" and the sensation labeled "hand". Nothing that could be seen in DE, however. More like a belief. But then something shifted a little bit. Now I begin to see that the sensations and the movement of the image seems to be indented. I'm not sure anymore if the sensations labeled "hands" do move at all or if they always remain at the same location but slightly change in intensity (like a pulsation). It's as if watching a screen which shows a moving hand in front of a background while at the same time being aware of sensations. I'm really curious if the sensation are always at the same location of the hand image or steady in location.

Moreover, when putting "my right hand" higher than "my left hand", I couldn't really determine if the sensation labeled "right hand" is felt higher than the sensation labeled "left hand" or if height is only in thought. Still, it does not feel like both sensations are at the same location.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

Image/colors cannot suggest anything, neither being "me", "my body", or in general "any body". There are only colors that thought interprets as "my body" or "other bodies".

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Only thoughts and mental images that suggest the hidden body parts. The image as per se does not posses any knowledge.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There is no "body" except some outlines of the face (e.g., "nose", "eye brows", "upper lip"), which are labeled colors. All else is sensations only.

There was another interesting insight when turning away from the mirror and turning back towards the mirror. Before turning towards the mirror a thought arises that an image of "my body" will appear when looking into the mirror. This was confirmed shortly after. So there is still a deeply rooted belief in cause-and-effect, allowing to "predict the future". Looking deeper, I saw that there is first the thought "you will appear in the mirror once facing towards it" and second the image of "my body" appearing in the mirror. However, there is no correlation between the thought and the image except in thought. This seems similar to the connection between "reading exercise" and "flipping hand", we've discussed before.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations. The mental body image inserted by thought is quite stubborn, however.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

There is a change of colors and sensations, sounds (of the footsteps). These phenomena are labeled "walking".

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

In addition to the phenomena listed in the previous answer, there is a mental image of a walking body and sometimes thoughts claiming "I am walking".

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

There are thoughts that take possession over certain colors in the field of sight as well as over all sensations. These thoughts are labeled and interpreted as "my body". Similarly, thoughts interpret certain color patterns as the "bodies of others".

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

"Walking" is just a thought-made label which refers to certain aspects of the sense fields.

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

There are only sensations appearing at the center of "my experience". The image labeled "room" comes closer (like zooming in) when "walking forwards".


Loving

[Anastacia42]

Okay. all of this about "deeply rooted" & "stubborn"thoughts are what?

Just more thoughts! Don't believe them. Ignore them.

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

You don't have to do them again, but LOOK. What do they point to? [/color]

Loving,

[P5yx]

Just more thoughts! Don't believe them. Ignore them.

You're right Stacy. Thanks for the reminder! :)

Does the sense of self have a location?

In and around the head.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Neither shape nor size.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

An inherent knowingness/awareness.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

I don't know what its made of.

What is found?

An aliveness, a knowingness of all sense perceptions and thoughts.


Loving

[Anastacia42]

Okay, that sounds like simple awareness, not a "self." Don't try to make your awareness into a "self."

Around the head? If you cannot see, feel, hear, taste or smell it, there is nothing there but a thought.

Can you see that?

Loving,

[P5yx]

Okay, that sounds like simple awareness, not a "self." Don't try to make your awareness into a "self."

Yes! That's seems to be my misunderstanding! Mixing awareness with a "self". That's why I'm not sure if the gate had already been crossed or not. Upon investigation, I can clearly see that there is no self in the five sense fields. Only in thought. But still this feeling of "I" is inherent to the looking (awareness).

How can I stop making "my" awareness into a "self"? This awareness seems to be "me". I AM that. But sometimes (when re-identification with the person happens), this awareness gets mixed up with the personal story again. Especially when being triggered and strong "negative" emotions come into play.

Can you see that?

I can see that. However, only when concentrating on seeing that. Otherwise, attention automatically rests on the head area and unconsciously it is believed that the self is in that spot.


Loving.

[Anastacia42]

Okay...

feeling of "I"

There can be no feeling of "I" only thoughts about it.

LOOK

How can you stop?

LOOK & Stop believing any thought of "I"

Question that as we've been doing

Check this LIE against Direct Experience.

Loving,

[P5yx]

There can be no feeling of "I" only thoughts about it.

Yeah, I used the term "feeling" for a lack of better terminology. It's more like a sense of identity. That the looking reports to "me".

Check this LIE against Direct Experience.

Okay, I will! Thanks!


Loving