Seeing through doubt and uncertainty

[MargaretaG]

Hi Branimir,
It was lovely meeting you the other day.

I cannot control how thoughts operate and arise.
I have no control over the thinking process.
Thoughts come and go seemingly out of nowhere, seem to pass through mind and then disappear.
When I explore the “who”, then there is attention on the senses and there seems to be a body here, a self, experiencing the thoughts and sensations. I cannot locate it, perhaps it is simply a deeply ingrained belief. But I cannot say in my experience that there is no self.

[Brane]

HI Margareta,

thanks for responding.

I cannot control how thoughts operate and arise.
I have no control over the thinking process.
Thoughts come and go seemingly out of nowhere, seem to pass through mind and then disappear.

Just make sure to revisit these pointers again and again. The key here is to let the realization that there is no thinker or anything generating thoughts sink in. I am not sure if you have investigated this in this way before. If not, please don't rush it; instead, allow this realization to delve deeper

When I explore the “who”, then there is attention on the senses and there seems to be a body here, a self, experiencing the thoughts and sensations. I cannot locate it, perhaps it is simply a deeply ingrained belief. But I cannot say in my experience that there is no self.

That's true. You cannot locate it. You cannot because is not there. When you cannot find something, can you simply accept that it is not there?

Can you locate the belief in it, though?

What does this belief suggest?

Who decides to have this belief?

[MargaretaG]

Hi Branimir,

I have investigated this way before and I have experienced this realization about thoughts on a deep level. But I appreciate the pointer because I realize that I cannot accept that there is not a self simply because I cannot find it.
I feel like I can accept it on an intellectual level but this has not been seen through completely.
I guess I feel confused about simply accepting it, because it feels like I am trying to convince myself on an intellectual level?
I cannot locate the belief in it.
I understand that belief is simply thought, opinion, empty.
There is no decision to have this belief.
I suppose it feels beyond my “control” to see through this belief because it has always been there.
So, I am curious about the acceptance. Is that a decision? Or does that simply happen?

M

[Brane]

I feel like I can accept it on an intellectual level but this has not been seen through completely.

That's fine. Simply allow yourself to go deeper in the looking. What you want to do is keep and keep looking. Let curiosity lead you there. While looking, thoughts will take credit for it, and there will be lots of thoughts, coming up as doubts, distractions, you name it. Simply notice them, let them come and go, and keep looking

I cannot locate the belief in it.

There is for sure a belief, otherwise you will be able to see it. Often, the belief in the separate self is sneaky and runs so deeply that it's taken for granted, which is why it's easily overlooked.

Can you notice that? How the belief arises whenever a story arise, claiming that the story belongs to some self, you, me. That belief, that's where the sense of self is residing. It feels like a sense of an ownership, whcih is actually a belief about separate self operating automatically..

So, I am curious about the acceptance. Is that a decision? Or does that simply happen?

Acceptance is more like surrender to the fact that we cannot find it. And yes, it simply happens. Everything is simply happening.

Again, keep looking at your direct experience.

Here's another example.
When a sound arises, how does it feel? Does it seem like you are actively hearing the sound? If so, do you intentionally make something happen to perceive this sound? Do you have to take some action for a sound to be heard? Is it a conscious decision, or is the sound simply present?

Take a moment to pick some sound, and investigate this. Focus on the raw sensations of the sound. Keep it simple, but also stay curious.

And have fun:)

No worries if this feels confusing, and at times, maybe frustrating. It's all good. Remember to remain open and kind to the intellectual and emotional spectrum, and to whatever arises. This forms the foundation for everything. I am here to help as long as you need.

[MargaretaG]

Hi Branimir,

Thank you for your pointers.
It is helpful simply to have these reminders.

I can notice that there is a sense of ownership when a thought, story, emotion arises.
I can notice that this belief in the separate self runs deep and it is absolutely taken for granted.
I can accept to surrender to the fact that I cannot find the self, that is a very helpful way of putting it.

In direct experience, when sound arises, it is experienced as sensations in the body, I take no action, there is no control. There is simply sound happening, hearing, feeling vibrations. Sound comes and goes as does thought. As though it is almost passing through “experienced” by the body and then disappears. There is no conscious action, there is no choice.

Expectation and frustration definitely interfere with curiosity at times.
Off the cushion, mind is very involved in knowing, judging, comparing, labelling, grasping, pushing away…
Conditioned responses (emotional reactions, overwhelm, dissociation) outside of the comfort zone, sometimes just internally, not always acted out.
I will practice remaining open and kind to the intellect and emotions and whatever arises.
I understand that this is key.
I appreciate the pointers, reminders and support.

M

[Brane]

Off the cushion, mind is very involved in knowing, judging, comparing, labelling, grasping, pushing away…
Conditioned responses (emotional reactions, overwhelm, dissociation) outside of the comfort zone, sometimes just internally, not always acted out.

The mind's role is to carry out these functions, so there's no need to overly concern yourself with it. Most of the time, the mind is engaged in the process of selfing. It's entirely normal for conditioning to persist, given the lifelong exposure to various influences and emotional reactions. Instantly erasing these patterns isn't possible; it demands practice and learning to approach the present moment with openness. However, it's crucial to acknowledge that overcoming conditioning is not the central focus for us at this point. Therefore, don't be too hard on yourself regarding the existing conditioning.

Your job is to tell me when how the sense of self operates and arises in your case. My job is not to let it establish itself as real.

There is simply sound happening, hearing, feeling vibrations. Sound comes and goes as does thought. As though it is almost passing through “experienced” by the body and then disappears. There is no conscious action, there is no choice.

Right, we do not chose to hear the sound. It's simply there.
In the hearing ONLY sound. Try to meditate on this whenever you can. Simply place the attention on whatever sound you encounter. And that's it.
You can spot the sound easily, right? You can feel it. Now, turn your attention to the "self." Can you identify it as you can identify the sound?

I can notice that there is a sense of ownership when a thought, story, emotion arises.

very good. Take a moment to investigate this now.

Is there any story that accompanies this sense of ownership, this "me" that owns a thought, story, or emotions?

Or is it simply an assumption arising without any particular narrative?

Make sure to indetify what is that that arises. Once you see this sense arising, get curious and look more deeply.

What is that exactly? Who is there?

Is there something solid there? Is there really any self, or a separate "I" operating?

Can you find anything?

Or it is rather nothing?

Search as you would look for your phone or keys. Let go of any anticipation about what may happen during this inquiry. The key is to ONLY focus on the pointer.

Also, be fully authentic what comes up.

[MargaretaG]

Hi Branimir,

Thank you, that is very clear and helpful.

I investigate the sense of self.
I cannot identify self as I can the sound.
What happens: a thought storm, mostly thoughts about the self and self care and they’re very persuasive and there is some grasping. Emotions to accompany the thoughts.
And confusion.
I know I’m not the thoughts, I know I’m not the sensations.

Deeper investigation: is there a sense of ownership of the self…
The only thing I can find, is the usual pull to the solar plexus area with its icky quality.
Looking deeper.
There is a sense of care and love and compassion for the self.
I feel like there is identification happening with the vibrational energies in the body.
I cannot find a self, strangely a feeling of failure and giving up arises.

[Brane]

Hi Margareta,

nice looking.

mostly thoughts about the self and self care and they’re very persuasive

Why are thoughts persuasive?

What gives them that power?

Simply observe this. It is so worthy.

I cannot find a self, strangely a feeling of failure and giving up arises.

I know I’m not the thoughts, I know I’m not the sensations.

Let's explore this further. When you say, you know you're not the thoughts, ask:

who is that I that knows this?

How does it appear that?

What is made of?

Simply explore without clinging to intellectualization. Keep the focus on the assumed knower.

[MargaretaG]

Hi Branimir,

These thoughts are the juiciest thoughts that mind can come up with to distract me from staying with direct experience because staying present feels difficult and unfamiliar. It’s a deep pattern of aversion, avoidance using familiar stories that have been grasped and clung to so many times for so long. They can be seen through and seen as empty when not grasped.

In direct experience, there is no knower and there is nothing known, there is curiosity.

[Brane]

Thanks for sharing.

When I questioned why thoughts are so persuasive, we don't aim for giving some overview of the thoughts; instead, we delved deeper without intellectualizing it.

So, why are these "juicy thoughts" so persuasive?

Do they inherently possess persuasive power?

Why do certain thoughts create tensions while others don't?

The key lies in simply observing what gives them power -and that's the belief we invest in them. So, we turn to beliefs, which are also thoughts, but not every thought is a belief! These beliefs treat stories to feel real or threatening. But I want you to explore this.


So please explore these questions. Feeling distracted and unfamiliar is normal when starting something new. However, if you stick with this process, I assure you, is so worth.

[MargaretaG]

The thoughts, stories, seem to be more juicy because they seem to be related to/ co-arise with uncomfortable, more intense sensation in the body, especially the heart area, which seems to make them more persuasive, more real, more believable.
Other thoughts do not “trigger” or co-arise with these intense physical sensations in the body.
In direct experience, staying with pure sensation, detaching the thoughts and labels, I can see that the thoughts themselves do not inherently possess persuasive power.

[Brane]

Right, thoughts themselves do not possess inherent power. When we treat thoughts as real or threatening, only then do emotional reactions and suffering arise. Thoughts are just thoughts, a mental and automatic interpretation that has no inherent power to change anything, unless there is an underlying belief. And the belief in a separate self underlies all of it. It accompanies us everywhere.

When we observe the visual field, there is a sensation that "we" are doing that. But when we aim to find that "me," it becomes not that easy, because there is nowhere to be found.

Same with thoughts. They arise and there is a sense or an assumption that they belong to someone. Please observe this again, while noticing this capacity that we have to observe thoughts.

Turn then the attention to this assumed "observer".

How does that feel?
What is this observer made of?

Be very curious and persistent when you look at this.

I'll write you about the meeting soon.

[MargaretaG]

Hi Branimir,
I have been trying to turn my attention to the “observer “, at first it felt like intellect wanted to take over.
Searching for this sense of ownership, things became very still, then I noticed that this sense of ownership seems to just be a thought as well, a distraction.
I’m very excited to continue exploring this.

M

[Brane]

Great.
Let me know how it goes.

How does it feel to realize that there is no observer or self to be found?

Do you feel some changes in the perception and your present experience, or this is still more on the intellectual side?

No wrong answers here, simply to check.

I will be able to meet next week. Will coordinate in a pm.

[MargaretaG]

It is possible that this realization is more on the intellectual side. I have not noticed any changes in perception.