I’m ready for clarity!

[warissem]

Good evening

Great answers to the exercise. How do you feel to see that labels don't influence experience?

Look around you without putting labels on what is seen and come back with your comments.

The I appears in thought. And feels real there.

Yes, What is "I" outside of thoughts?
Is there an "I" in direct experience ?

Here is an investigation about thoughts.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Best for you

[Puppet]

Hello

How do you feel to see that labels don't influence experience?

Yes there’s more openness. Less energy too

What is "I" outside of thoughts?
Is there an "I" in direct experience ?

Outside of thoughts there’s a feeling of being here now existing alive … But no clear I
No I in DE. Just the senses.

Where are they coming from and going to?

No idea

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

I assume I can. But actually the thought just appears. There’s just no way to get “behind” there curtain if you know what I mean

Can you predict your next thought?

No. Is just there. The prediction is the thought

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No. That would be nice

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Nope

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can decide you think of my son, for example, for a few minutes and possibly I will have a train of thoughts about him. But equally possible I won’t.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No they just come when they come

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance …or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

This is really interesting as it is just thought that’s telling me about the previous thoughts and whether they’re related. Even memory is just a thought. Who knows if my memories even happened!

Thank you

[warissem]

Hi John

You have done a good investigation about thoughts. There is a comment :

I can decide you think of my son, for example, for a few minutes and possibly I will have a train of thoughts about him. But equally possible I won’t.

Is not "thinking about your son" a thought ?
Can a thought be known before it arises ?
Is there a you thinking ?

Best for you

[Puppet]

Hello!

Is not "thinking about your son" a thought ?

Haha ah yes I see that now. That one slipped past.

With thanks

[warissem]

Hi John

You have missed these questions :

Can a thought be known before it arises ?

Is there a you thinking ?

Waiting for your insights

[Puppet]

Hello there

Ah sorry I did indeed

Can a thought be known before it arises ?

No not at all.

Is there a you thinking ?

Thoughts just appear ! There’s no me thinking as there’s no space for that. That is just another thought appearing

So thoughts appear and I do or don’t latch onto them.
When I follow them and get lost I feel a “me”
But when I don’t do that there’s just thought and no thinker.

The implications of thoughts just appearing from nowhere, the total lack of control that implies, the lack of anything to hold onto is crazy

Best

John

[warissem]

Good morning

You have done a good investigation about thoughts. Now, I invite you to do the investigation about the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

PS : give answers through direct experience.

Waiting for your insights.

[Puppet]

Hello there

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Can’t know how tall it is no
It feels like it weighs something but can’t measure it. Just the pull downwards
With my eyes closed and not referring to thoughts it doesn’t have shape or form. Just loads of sensations

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Outside of thoughts what i would’ve thought of boundary is a indistinguishable bunch of sensations

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Again once thought isn’t involved even sound could be inside or outside. But yes inside or outside of what!? It’s just there. The “body” is just an ill defined cluster of feelings/ sensations and movement/ breathing.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The other exercises lead nicely to this
The body only exits in direct experience when an image pops into my head. When looked at directly it’s just sensations without borders. However with my eyes open I can see boundaries and I can see a body.

Thanks

[warissem]

Good morning

You have done good observations about the body.

However with my eyes open I can see boundaries and I can see a body.

Have you ever seen the back of your body? This is an exercise to help for this :

Wherever you are sitting right now, look for an object to use. Don’t pick up the object or turn it around, only look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.

Have one?

Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look, nothing else.

Done?

Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all?

Have a good time

[Puppet]

Hello

Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?

Only thought, based on memory or assumptions can tell this. It isn’t known in direct experience as it simply can’t be.

Can an object be known at all?

No. When I look from DE without thoughts any object is just colour and shapes. It all feels more mental than physical

Thanks

[warissem]

Good evening

No. When I look from DE without thoughts any object is just colour and shapes. It all feels more mental than physical

Yes, what is more about the body?

How do you feel to see all this .

Best for you

[Puppet]

Hello

what is more about the body?
How do you feel to see all this .

Wow. For some reason I didn’t think to look at the body in this way.
Because there’s also sensation as well as colour and shape it’s a bit different to other objects.

However all of that is mental and non solid/physical too …

It feels …. When coupled with thoughts just appearing without any controller it feels … like mist!?!

So hard to describe. Shrug.

John

[warissem]

Good evening John

You are doing a good job here. There is an exercise about control.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Best for you

[Puppet]

Hello.

That’s good to know, thanks

How is the movement controlled?

The more clearly I watch the less control I can find.
Weirdly it just happens

Does a thought control it?

No. That comes afterwards, if at all

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No…

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

It’s a mystery. It just happens

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

This just happened too

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No.

I should do this more often :)

[warissem]

Hi John

How do you feel to see that there is no controller, no one managing things ?

Is there a you, John, a separate self in any shape or form?

Go for a walk and report what is going here as direct experience.

Best for you