Questioning beliefs

[TeaEnjoyer]

Even when you intentionally try to think certain thoughts, the intention to do so does not have a clear source. When you reflect in retrospective, you see that.

It is true. There is no point in which I decide to have an intention to think. The intention appears on its own.

I say to myself “okay, now I am gonna intentionally start thinking and at some point I am going to stop intentionally”. What happens is, as I am in the middle of a thought, randomly a thought pops-up reminding me to stop thinking. Then a-split second later stopping happens

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Please try this investigation again and again if needed.

Can you truly, with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, do anything about that?

If I am in the middle of a thought and I decide to stop, the procces is similar to how a thought starts. An intention to stop thinking arises, then I stop giving my attention to the thought that was just happening. There is no point in which I decide to have the intention to stop the thought. That intention arises on its own.

How long did it take for the next thought to appear?

Thoughts never stop even if I don’t want to think. Usually thoughts start to appear again within 10 seconds.

If this is so volatile and automatic, who the heck is speaking then?

Most of my thinking feels automatic. It is constantly going on. Sometimes it is not in the form of fully fleshed out thoughts. Sometimes I just hear very quiet thoughts in the background. So quiet that I wouldn’t even know that I was thinking if I wasn’t paying attention. Sometimes the thoughts are vague images. Sometimes it is in the form of incomplete sentences. These type of quiet thoughts that are constantly in the background feel especially automatic. With these quiet thoughts it feels weird to ask who is thinking them because it is clear that nobody is thinking them (even if some parts of them may be about me), they just feel like static that is generated by the mind.

Then there are fully formed thoughts such as complete sentences or clear images. So when I have these thoughts, I ask myself who is doing the thinking. Then I start to look. I don’t know where to look, so I start to become more aware of the sensations in my head area. Those sensations aren’t who is thinking. I sense if it could be somewhere in the back of my shoulders and head. Those sensations aren’t who is thinking as well. I look forward, to the sensations around my face, chest, and hands. Those are not the one who is thinking as well.
These are usually the areas that are activated when I feel like "me" but I can’t find the one who is thinking in the sensations around these areas. But I don’t know where else to look for the one who is thinking.

I will keep returning to these questions but just wanted to share where I am at with the inquiry.

[Brane]

If I am in the middle of a thought and I decide to stop, the procces is similar to how a thought starts. An intention to stop thinking arises, then I stop giving my attention to the thought that was just happening. There is no point in which I decide to have the intention to stop the thought. That intention arises on its own.

Right! There is no you deciding to stop or initiate new thoughts. Keep exploring this, just to let this realization sink in. See, there is no control button that makes things happen. There is no entity that creates any thought. When we do simple inquiry, we can directly see that. Very good!

Thoughts never stop even if I don’t want to think. Usually thoughts start to appear again within 10 seconds.

Rights, it is job of what we label "mind" to create thoughts, although there is no such entity as mind, functioning on its own.

With these quiet thoughts it feels weird to ask who is thinking them because it is clear that nobody is thinking them (even if some parts of them may be about me), they just feel like static that is generated by the mind.

Even when it's evident that no one is actively thinking, the belief in someone doing the thinking can persist. Remember, beliefs, like thoughts, are automatic.

Then there are fully formed thoughts such as complete sentences or clear images. So when I have these thoughts, I ask myself who is doing the thinking. Then I start to look. I don’t know where to look, so I start to become more aware of the sensations in my head area. Those sensations aren’t who is thinking. I sense if it could be somewhere in the back of my shoulders and head. Those sensations aren’t who is thinking as well. I look forward, to the sensations around my face, chest, and hands. Those are not the one who is thinking as well.
These are usually the areas that are activated when I feel like "me" but I can’t find the one who is thinking in the sensations around these areas. But I don’t know where else to look for the one who is thinking.

Simply let the question guide you, refraining from providing an immediate answer—an approach reminiscent of the MU koan in Zen Buddhism. By doing so, we challenge established beliefs. You are progressing well in your exploration. It may seem, as you noted, that the sensations around the head define you or the thinker. However, this as another assumption. Make sure to recognize that. Assumption are hard-core beliefs about who we are. They were never questioned, so they live and operate safely. Continue to investigate until it becomes abundantly clear to you, with absolute certainty, that there is no thinker or entity—a realization akin to an 'aha' moment: How could I have missed that!

Transitioning to sensations, delve into this. When you sense feelings in your face, body, or chest, do you control these sensations?

Did you play a role in their emergence?
Similar to thoughts, can you halt or influence these sensations?
Can you alter the intensity or quality of the sensation?

Put your focus on the sensation, and direct your attention to the RAW FEELING beyond labels:

Does the sensation around your head inherently possess any label?

Explore with the sense of curiosity.

When we engage in such exploration, looking at the intellectual and emotional landscape, we actually have a chance to see how everything works—how there is no center, no starting point for what is internally going on.

Understand these pointers as orientation, as a sort of map. You can always refer back to the previous pointers. As important as it is to provide guidance, it is equally crucial for you to get the hang of the process, trust it, and start to orient intuitively. Be also always open to whatever arises, kind and gentle.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Did you play a role in their emergence?

This is tricky. Sometimes I do feel like I play a role in the emergence of a sensation. For example, if I pay attention to a part of the body where not much is going on, after paying attention to that part new tingly sensations could emerge. Other times it feels like the sensation was already there when I payed attention to it. Generally though, paying attention to sensations seem to change them a bit, making them more palpable.

Now, I say “I” pay attention, but I investigated how my attention moves by intentionally switching my attention from body part to body part and I couldn’t really find the exact point when “I” moved the attention. But this feels difficult to investigate. The attention somehow moves to another body part, but its hard to pinpoint what makes it move, or at what point the decision to move the attention is made.

I think you also wanted me to look into the sensations that were tied to the feeling of being a separate self but I kinda got sidetracked with looking how the attention moves and how it affects sensations and I’m still working with some of the previous pointers so couldn’t really look into that yet but I will.

Similar to thoughts, can you halt or influence these sensations?
Can you alter the intensity or quality of the sensation?

I can’t halt the sensations. Best I can do is to move my attention away and sometimes that makes the sensation die down. But if I start to really focus on a particular sensation, it can sometimes intensify.

Does the sensation around your head inherently possess any label?

No. They are just sensations.

[Brane]

This is tricky. Sometimes I do feel like I play a role in the emergence of a sensation. For example, if I pay attention to a part of the body where not much is going on, after paying attention to that part new tingly sensations could emerge. Other times it feels like the sensation was already there when I payed attention to it. Generally though, paying attention to sensations seem to change them a bit, making them more palpable.

Good observation. The point is, it doesn't alter the sensations; placing attention there merely makes them palpable. The same applies to other senses. If you focus on the taste of certain food, the taste sensation intensifies. The same principle applies to sound and the visual field. It's simply a matter of deciding to pay attention.

Sensations are always present. Our body is alive, and subtle vibrations permeate it. You're not changing anything; just give it another try. Do you play a role in how the body will look like? How tall it will grow? Or the color of the skin? Did you ever play any role in this?

I think you also wanted me to look into the sensations that were tied to the feeling of being a separate self but I kinda got sidetracked with looking how the attention moves and how it affects sensations and I’m still working with some of the previous pointers so couldn’t really look into that yet but I will.

That's perfectly fine—simply explore. My intention in examining thoughts and sensations is to guide you toward what is "real," or better put, what can be directly experienced versus what is mere fantasy. What we're experiencing right now is all that we have. Everything else is not happening; the content of the thought is not occurring.

Now, as you reflect on the earlier points about thoughts and sensations, return to the sensation of a lack of control. It should become evident that we don't truly decide anything. Let that realization sink in, take a moment to pause, and ask :

Who am I then?
Where is this i?

Now simply explore, allowing the sense of curiosity to guide you. Look for the I like you look for something lost, like you look for your keys or phone.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Okay. I think I understand what you mean by saying I can’t control sensations. I think I just got stuck with the wording. Tell me if my understanding is right: Activities like prolonged attention on a body part, or just doing pushups will create new sensations, but there is noone deciding to do these things. And when a sensation does arise, there is nothing outside of the chain of causality that can have any input on how that sensation is expressed. You can’t stop it or change it once it has arisen.

I also feel like I am starting to get how to do inquiry. Sometimes I am lost in thought for many minutes but when the inquiry catches my curiosity my intuition tells me that I am looking exactly how I am supposed to (unless I am fooling myself).
Yet, I still feel like a self. I don’t know if it is a matter of time, just doing the inquiry over and over again.

It should become evident that we don't truly decide anything.

I doesn’t feel evident. I need to check the thoughts, sensations, and move my arms to see if there is someone deciding to do these things. After that, it becomes clearer. But I wouldn’t say it is evident. It is just that, when I looked, I couldn’t find a decider.

There is a strong desire to finally see the world without feeling like a self. I know it is not really helpful so when this happens I try to look for the one wanting to be free. But I thought I should mention it. I just want to make it click for me.

[Brane]

Tell me if my understanding is right. Activities like prolonged attention on a body part, or just doing pushups will create new sensations, but there is noone deciding to do these things. And when a sensation does arise, there is nothing outside of the chain of causality that can have any input on how that sensation is expressed. You can’t stop it or change it once it has arisen.

yes, and that's all what you need to know. There is dependent origination behind every action, and there is no self involved in it. But, this realization will only crystallize later. Now is on intellectual level, and that's completely normal. Let go of too much wanting to understand how this works.

Sometimes I am lost in thought for many minutes but when the inquiry catches my curiosity my intuition tells me that I am looking exactly how I am supposed to (unless I am fooling myself).

Perfect. The best insights or practices might come the very moment after you get lost. When we engage in more inquiry and apply curiosity, we naturally transition to the state of being an explorer. There is something deep down that pulls us there - and that's the freedom calling us. Trust your intuition. Keep doing that. Good job.

Yet, I still feel like a self. I don’t know if it is a matter of time, just doing the inquiry over and over again.

Of course you feel:) Look, even when you are in deep stages of non-duality, a subtle sense of self will persist. The best description of that is the sense of "I am". So, don't worry about that. Even after you have a clear seeing that there is no self, it will not disappear instantly, but everything will start feeling different.

I doesn’t feel evident. I need to check the thoughts, sensations, and move my arms to see if there is someone deciding to do these things. After that, it becomes clearer. But I wouldn’t say it is evident. It is just that, when I looked, I couldn’t find a decider.

Keep doing that, explore the senses, they are your gateway. Let's explore the sound and the visual field.


Take a moment to put the attention on some sound.

Do you decide sound to be heard?
Can you locate the receiver of the sound, or rather there is only sound to be DIRECTLY experienced?
How about the visual field - do you decide how is being perceived?

Explore that. Explore the visual field, explore the sound, explore sensations and thoughts.

Do you have any influence on how direct experience (sound, visual field, sensations) presents itself?

Do not rush this one. Use your curiosity, which is apparently there, and ask:

Where is the "i" that decides?

There is a strong desire to finally see the world without feeling like a self. I know it is not really helpful so when this happens I try to look for the one wanting to be free. But I thought I should mention it. I just want to make it click for me.

Ok, there is a desire, and that's fine. Here's how to deal with that. When you notice the desire, explore how it shows up. Is it an expectation or imagination how the life will look after awakening?

Simply notice the desire and let it go. Do not push it away nor cling to it. Simply notice it and do not react to it. It is impossible to intellectually know that, so do not let the mind trick you. It's a trap:). The thoughts are all about future or past. It's all fantasy. The senses are guiding to what can really be experienced, and that's where we orient.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Do you decide sound to be heard?
Can you locate the receiver of the sound, or rather there is only sound to be DIRECTLY experienced?
How about the visual field - do you decide how is being perceived?

I don’t make the sound be heard or the sights to be seen. I don’t decide how these experiences show up. I don’t have a choice about what sound or sight will be there when I pay attention.
I can’t locate a receiver for the sound or the sights. But I do feel like the sound of a car is over there and I am over here on the couch. Even if I can’t find who I am exactly, I feel like there is a distance between something here, and the sound over there. Same with sights. I look at the floor, there is just the floor and I can’t find the seer. But the floor is over there and something is over here.

Do you have any influence on how direct experience (sound, visual field, sensations) presents itself?

I don’t, but this is clearer with sights and sounds. I understand that I don’t have any influence on sensations as well. When I put attention on my body, I don’t have to do anything for sensations to show up. I don’t decide that a sensation appears there. But it feels like there are more sensations going on on wherever on the body I rest my attention. And when my attention moves, my default is to assume I moved it. When this process is unexamined, it feels like:
1. I moved attention to my right hand
2. Sensations in my right hand become more palpable compared to the rest of the sensations in my body.
3. Therefore, I made the sensations in my right hand become more palpable compared to the rest of my body.
I think this creates a sense of control over the body. So, while I intellectually understand I don’t have any influence on any direct experience, experientially this is clearer on sights and sounds.

Where is the "i" that decides?

I don’t know. I can’t find it. It feels like it is behind the eyes somewhere. But when I look, there are only sensations there. It feels like the sensations in my chest and abdomen are a part of it. But what they are a part of, I can’t find.

[Brane]

But I do feel like the sound of a car is over there and I am over here on the couch. Even if I can’t find who I am exactly, I feel like there is a distance between something here, and the sound over there

That's okay. The perception of distance shifts only later in deeper non-dual stages. I'd like you to rather focus more on the "I" that observes, listens, and undergoes all of these experiences. We are exploring whether there is actually an entity carrying out these actions.

But it feels like there are more sensations going on on wherever on the body I rest my attention.

The sensations are consistently present. Placing attention doesn't make them more or less present; nothing changes except for the focus of attention. Everything remains the same, operating without a source.

And when my attention moves, my default is to assume I moved it.

We are coming back to the sense of decision-maker.

Did you actively choose to shift your attention, or does the feeling of having moved it only emerge after the action has occurred? As with thoughts, is there something that decides when attention will be moved?

Where is the "i" that decides?
I don’t know. I can’t find it. It feels like it is behind the eyes somewhere.

Now, when you direct your attention to the sensation behind your eyes, do you encounter any distinct entity?
What precisely do you discover when you search for the self operating behind the eyes?
Is there an assumption or belief that the self resides there? Can you see it?
When you notice this belief arising, claiming ownership as there is something real and solid, continue questioning:
Where, beyond this belief, can self be found?

Allow yourself to delve deeper and genuinely investigate. The pointer is that there is essentially nothing there. However, you need to see this directly. You will know it, trust me when you do. Just keep looking deeper, beyond thoughts, and allow surrendering to the fact that there is nothing to be found. Avoid falling into the trap of excessive expectations or anticipating freedom and liberation after you see it. This prevents you from truly seeing it. Focus on the pointer simply and keep looking:)

[TeaEnjoyer]

The sensations are consistently present. Placing attention doesn't make them more or less present; nothing changes except for the focus of attention. Everything remains the same, operating without a source.

Hmm. But if everything remains the same, how do I know where my attention is? Something has to change for me to know the attention is on something right? If my experience is just the five senses and thought, some change in these channels lets me know where my attention is, or whether or not it has moved. At least that’s what I assume.

Did you actively choose to shift your attention, or does the feeling of having moved it only emerge after the action has occurred? As with thoughts, is there something that decides when attention will be moved?

I see what you mean. Attention moves similar to how thoughts show up.

Now, when you direct your attention to the sensation behind your eyes, do you encounter any distinct entity?

No, I just find the sensations. When unexamined, these sensations feel like they are the self that controls things. But when I look, they are just sensations that I didn’t create and can’t control.

What precisely do you discover when you search for the self operating behind the eyes?

Slight pressure and buzzing in the middle of my skull. Verbal thoughts also seem to show up around this space, somewhere between the ears. Slight glowing sensation around my eyes. Tension around certain parts, relaxation around certain parts. A diffuse and large sensation that goes from my head to my arms. There are many sensations actually, its difficult to describe all of them. They keep changing too.
I notice this: when I look for a sensation that feels like me, I see this is not true. But then another sensation emerges in the same general are that starts to feel more like the center of “me”, until I look at this new sensation.

Is there an assumption or belief that the self resides there? Can you see it?

There is a subtle belief that there is some manager entity somewhere in the upper body, and its center can shift and move, sometimes being closer to the chest and other times to the head.

When you notice this belief arising, claiming ownership as there is something real and solid, continue questioning:
Where, beyond this belief, can self be found?

I do feel like the belief is loosening as we look into different parts of my experience. I mean… I just can’t find this separate self. I don’t know where it could be, I don’t know on what basis the belief in it persists.

You will know it, trust me when you do. Just keep looking deeper, beyond thoughts, and allow surrendering to the fact that there is nothing to be found. Avoid falling into the trap of excessive expectations or anticipating freedom and liberation after you see it.

Allright. But I will know it right? :D Cause I heard all this stuff about the shift being subtle and nothing actually changing because it was like this anyway. But when this shift happens, its clear that there is some change in experience?

Sorry if this sounds like I’m overthinking about results. I ask because as I inquire and can’t find a self, I have thoughts like “maybe this shift already happened for you and that’s why you can’t find the self.”

[TeaEnjoyer]

But then another sensation emerges in the same general are that starts to feel more like the center of “me”, until I look at this new sensation.

Correction: But then another sensation emerges in the same general **area** that starts to feel more like the center of “me”, until I look at this new sensation.

[Brane]

Hmm. But if everything remains the same, how do I know where my attention is? Something has to change for me to know the attention is on something right? If my experience is just the five senses and thought, some change in these channels lets me know where my attention is, or whether or not it has moved. At least that’s what I assume.

It does not matter at this point. Attention is never yours. We have the capacity to use attention/awareness, but that's not who we are, it is simply a part of this human life. Nothing controls this attention. But let's let go of this. The key is to simply see the emptiness of sensations - that they are present without and nobody operates them. And that's all what you need to know.

Allright. But I will know it right? :D Cause I heard all this stuff about the shift being subtle and nothing actually changing because it was like this anyway. But when this shift happens, its clear that there is some change in experience?

I will only tell you this: you will. Everything else is imagination, speculation. Ensure that you let go of comparisons to other experiences. Such comparisons do not do you any good here; they only hinder your ability to look sincerely.

You're on the right path. Make sure you utilize the curiosity you naturally have, and don't intellectualize it too much, in terms of seeking to understand all of it. The mind will do that, but you notice and do not react. That's how we let go.

I notice this: when I look for a sensation that feels like me, I see this is not true. But then another sensation emerges in the same general are that starts to feel more like the center of “me”, until I look at this new sensation.

Focus on this more. When another sensation emerges that feels like you, continue looking, and see exactly.

Is the sensation feeling like you, or is rather a belief (another thought) arising and claiming ownership of the sensations, the thought, or the inquiry you are engaging in right now?

It may arise very subtly, so look deeply and closely.

What do you exactly find?

Can you identify the belief claiming ownership of whatever you're doing?

[TeaEnjoyer]

Is the sensation feeling like you, or is rather a belief (another thought) arising and claiming ownership of the sensations, the thought, or the inquiry you are engaging in right now?

There is an assumption that some sensation must feel like me because there is still a belief in a separate self experientially. So maybe that’s why I kept looking into new sensations, trying to find the new center of “me”.

What do you exactly find?
Can you identify the belief claiming ownership of whatever you're doing?

The belief that claims ownership of my experience is, as you say, very subtle. For
example, I was looking into these questions, and then I got lost in thought. When I realized this, I said “Oh, I got lost in thought. It wasn’t even voluntary, I didn’t decide to think.” But at that moment there was an assumption that someone realized this. It wasn’t even a verbal thought. Just automatically assumed. Maybe many things are like this. I need to look more to see.

[Brane]

Sounds good. I won't provide any pointers today. I'll follow up with you in a day or two. Let curiosity and intuition guide you, as they have thus far. Remember to be mindful of expectations, comparisons, and anticipation—these are merely stories. See them as friendly distractions, let them pass, and return to LOOKING.

[Brane]

When I realized this, I said “Oh, I got lost in thought. It wasn’t even voluntary, I didn’t decide to think.” But at that moment there was an assumption that someone realized this. It wasn’t even a verbal thought. Just automatically assumed. Maybe many things are like this.

Great!

But at that moment there was an assumption that someone realized this. It wasn’t even a verbal thought.

Right, the sense of self appears either in a narrative story or as a non-verbal assumption. However, we are still dealing with a belief - a conviction that there is a some kind of entity realizing something.

So now, at the moment when you realize that you got lost in thoughts, or you realize that you are not the thoughts, ask:

Who is having this realization?

Is there something or it's simply a thought arising, claiming some sense of an ownership?

Where, aside from the thoughts, can you locate Boran?

Keep in mind not to intellectualize this, but to simply dive deeper into the looking, as if you're exploring the depths of the ocean.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Who is having this realization?

When I look I can’t find anyone having this realization. There is a point when I realize I’m thinking without being aware of it, a bit like waking up from a dream. But I can’t say I found who this happens to.

Is there something or it's simply a thought arising, claiming some sense of an ownership?

It happens differently each time I’m lost in thought. Sometimes I realize I’m lost in thought and then the next thought that leads to identification is “okay, now I’m gonna look for the thinker”. Other times when I’m not doing inquiry it may be something like “okay, now that I recognized I was lost in thought, now I’m gonna think about what I actually wanted to think.” Usually these are the types of thoughts that claim ownership of the recognition of being lost in thought. Also, when I return to the present moment after being lost in thoughts a little bit, my attention may move to the sensations in my head or my chest. I notice that I am automatically interpreting this movement of attention as the result of “me” taking back the control.

Where, aside from the thoughts, can you locate Boran?

I can’t locate Boran. As I said, there are the thoughts, sensations, movements of attention that suggest Boran took back control. But I can’t directly see Boran. I seem to infer it from the thoughts and sensations.