Beginning Anew

[Elad]

Good!

Lets look at

"But it FEELS LIKE there is a separate self!", says a voice."



Look into this feeling. Where is it? Does it have a shape? Is it unchanging and constant in experience?

What about this feeling says it's you?

Does it say by itself that it is a self?


Don't accept answers from preconceived ideas even if they seem obvious. Really look to see.



As for triggering - what makes triggering less indicative of seeing and more indicative of self?

Is there a self in triggering?

Is there a no self in serenity?

[OpenAwareing]

Thanks for the questions. The sense of self has no location or shape. I could say, it must be in the brain, but that isn't direct experience, just logic.

Is it unchanging? No, it changes. In awareness, in the absence of thoughts, emotions, and sensations, no sense of self is found.

What about it says it is me? I don't understand the question.

A thought without charge, like, "I need to get some milk", just refers to a self habitually. Upon slight inspection, there is no self there. But an emotional charge/ trigger, like, "someone is trying to do something to me", the sense is, "I am under attack. I need to protect myself." (These are emotional/psychological attacks, not physical).

Suppose I asked myself, "Who is tired? Who is hungry? Who feels like he is under attack? This might be helpful. What do you think?

This feels exciting. Who feels excitement? Actually, no one!

There is no self in triggering, or in serenity. Thank you!

[Elad]

Thanks for the questions. The sense of self has no location or shape. I could say, it must be in the brain, but that isn't direct experience, just logic.

Is it unchanging? No, it changes. In awareness, in the absence of thoughts, emotions, and sensations, no sense of self is found.

What about it says it is me? I don't understand the question.

A thought without charge, like, "I need to get some milk", just refers to a self habitually. Upon slight inspection, there is no self there. But an emotional charge/ trigger, like, "someone is trying to do something to me", the sense is, "I am under attack. I need to protect myself." (These are emotional/psychological attacks, not physical).

Suppose I asked myself, "Who is tired? Who is hungry? Who feels like he is under attack? This might be helpful. What do you think?

This feels exciting. Who feels excitement? Actually, no one!

There is no self in triggering, or in serenity. Thank you!

Great!

"Suppose I asked myself, "Who is tired? Who is hungry? Who feels like he is under attack? This might be helpful. What do you think?"

Yes this is spot on!


"What about it says it is me? I don't understand the question.
It"

This means, when you notice there is a sense of self you identify whatever/wherever it is (call it X), and then you ask "is there anything about X that says in direct experience that it is "me"/the self?

Write me soon again how things unfold :)

[OpenAwareing]

The idea of the human mind/ self being like an ant colony came to me today. With an ant colony, it is clear that there is no decision maker, and yet the colony functions as an organism, and things get done so that the colony can survive. AS IF there were a decision maker, looking out for the good of the organism. So does there need to be a decision maker for things to get done? Clearly not.

Okay, I know you don't want thinking and inference, just direct experience. I was indulging myself.

What does that mean? I was following an impulse. What does that mean? There was thought and excitement, followed by action. Thoughts and sensations are arising now, unbidden by anyone. The excitement that arose has passed. No one did anything.

I indulged myself means, then, thought and energy arose, the desire to communicate the thought arose, followed by action (writing). Looking more carefully, no one did any of this. Yet it all happened.

[Elad]

[quote=OpenAwareing post_id=384521 time=1705036787 user_id=15729]
The idea of the human mind/ self being like an ant colony came to me today. With an ant colony, it is clear that there is no decision maker, and yet the colony functions as an organism, and things get done so that the colony can survive. AS IF there were a decision maker, looking out for the good of the organism. So does there need to be a decision maker for things to get done? Clearly not.

Okay, I know you don't want thinking and inference, just direct experience. I was indulging myself.

What does that mean? I was following an impulse. What does that mean? There was thought and excitement, followed by action. Thoughts and sensations are arising now, unbidden by anyone. The excitement that arose has passed. No one did anything.

I indulged myself means, then, thought and energy arose, the desire to communicate the thought arose, followed by action (writing). Looking more carefully, no one did any of this. Yet it all happened.
[/quote]

Awesome!

Sometimes metaphors and analogies help, as you know the spiritual traditions are stuck full with lovely ones. As long as we know that in the end it's not a about thinking and conceptual understanding, it's fine and welcome to bring playful and enriching associations. I like your ant colony image🙏🤍

So, how does it feel, is there doubt? If yes, about what?

[OpenAwareing]

The sense of "me" persists. It is only when I am still, and look and see that I can't find a self, that I see that there isn't one.

It's like being engrossed in a movie. I know that the movie isn't reality. But while I am watching it, I forget that. And, the movie happens to be about a guy named Eric.

[Elad]

The sense of "me" persists. It is only when I am still, and look and see that I can't find a self, that I see that there isn't one.

It's like being engrossed in a movie. I know that the movie isn't reality. But while I am watching it, I forget that. And, the movie happens to be about a guy named Eric.

What does it mean "I know the movie isn't reality'? You mean just intellectual conviction/belief?

What does it mean "the sense of me persists" in direct experience?

Keep looking many times.

What expectations do you have for what will be different after crossing the gateless gate?

[Elad]

[


Keep asking many times during day, whenever you don't have to be fully focused on something else - is there a self in control here?

[OpenAwareing]

Expectations/ hopes:

a greater sense of background peace/calm/acceptance
getting triggered less, and/ or staying triggered for shorter periods of time
having more acceptance/ compassion for self and other
having a greater sense of freedom.

BTW, ALL of these things are already happening to some degree!

"Is there a self in control here?" NO. And/but, I'm excited by your invitation to keep that question with me throughout the day. It seems REALLY POTENTIALLY helpful! Thanks!

[Elad]

Expectations/ hopes:

a greater sense of background peace/calm/acceptance
getting triggered less, and/ or staying triggered for shorter periods of time
having more acceptance/ compassion for self and other
having a greater sense of freedom.

BTW, ALL of these things are already happening to some degree!

"Is there a self in control here?" NO. And/but, I'm excited by your invitation to keep that question with me throughout the day. It seems REALLY POTENTIALLY helpful! Thanks!

Awesome!! Yes do that and write me what happens, what is seen :)

[OpenAwareing]

Clearly, over and over, no one is making decisions.

But what about intention? The intention to see clearly the nature of self: that is here. Is there someone here who has intention? Intention influences actions.

[Elad]

Clearly, over and over, no one is making decisions.

But what about intention? The intention to see clearly the nature of self: that is here. Is there someone here who has intention? Intention influences actions.

Lovely.

Now look at intention many times. Check in when there is clear intention and when there is less clear, just many situations/moments. Look:

1) Is there anyone who is in control of what is truly intended and wanted here and now? Is there a choice what is truly intended when it is there or is it just there? And if you ask yourself: what do I intend now, to have an ice cream or a beer, whatever intention truly emerges, is that in the control of anyone or it just happens?

2) When you look at an intention in direct experience, what is there? Thoughts, sensations, anything else? Can you find a self doing the intending or is intending just happening?

[OpenAwareing]

I think I was not clear about my concern. I'll try again.

I'm considering decisions and intentions as different. Decisions occur in the moment and seem random. No one or thing caused anyone to remember to write this response, but remembering occurred and a decision was made. No one made the decision. I see that.

My question is about the ability to have a long term goal, and to consistently make/choose actions that lead to it. This is what I mean by intention.

For example, my intention to see the true nature of self. I do certain practices every day. I consider your prompts every day. I have an intention and consistently act to try to achieve it. Or so it seems.

The question I'm asking myself, and indirectly asking you, is: Does it take a self (or a sense of continuity? or what?) to stick to a goal/ course of action? Perhaps I should not have called it an intention after all.

But my question to myself remains: is there something here that has a continuity of purpose that allows longer term goals to be pursued?

Thanks for your patience as I flesh this question out more clearly.

[Elad]

I think I was not clear about my concern. I'll try again.

I'm considering decisions and intentions as different. Decisions occur in the moment and seem random. No one or thing caused anyone to remember to write this response, but remembering occurred and a decision was made. No one made the decision. I see that.

My question is about the ability to have a long term goal, and to consistently make/choose actions that lead to it. This is what I mean by intention.

For example, my intention to see the true nature of self. I do certain practices every day. I consider your prompts every day. I have an intention and consistently act to try to achieve it. Or so it seems.

The question I'm asking myself, and indirectly asking you, is: Does it take a self (or a sense of continuity? or what?) to stick to a goal/ course of action? Perhaps I should not have called it an intention after all.

But my question to myself remains: is there something here that has a continuity of purpose that allows longer term goals to be pursued?

Thanks for your patience as I flesh this question out more clearly.

My sense is this line thinking will take you into thinking and conceptualizing. My response: obviously at the level of conventional language, subject, object, past, future, continuity and discontinuity there is a personality, memory, dispositions, continuity of will and memory, what we conventionally call a self or a person. So you can think about and attend to this and your experience will stay in dualism. Or you can keep looking if there is any agent at all in direct experience here now, 100% focused without digression to valid philosophical thinking like the one you brought here. You can stay on it until it's clear beyond any doubt that the experience of separate self in control is not even a real option - experientially, in the heart. Then it won't make a difference or be a problem that on the conventional level there is a person or "self". It will be clear that this phenomenon is just "a practical descriptor operating from mystery" (words fail...) with no choice or agency. So I would recommend you to not digress from inquiry into finding a separate self in the moment in direct experience until you cant deny liberation.

[Elad]

I think I was not clear about my concern. I'll try again.

I'm considering decisions and intentions as different. Decisions occur in the moment and seem random. No one or thing caused anyone to remember to write this response, but remembering occurred and a decision was made. No one made the decision. I see that.

My question is about the ability to have a long term goal, and to consistently make/choose actions that lead to it. This is what I mean by intention.

For example, my intention to see the true nature of self. I do certain practices every day. I consider your prompts every day. I have an intention and consistently act to try to achieve it. Or so it seems.

The question I'm asking myself, and indirectly asking you, is: Does it take a self (or a sense of continuity? or what?) to stick to a goal/ course of action? Perhaps I should not have called it an intention after all.

But my question to myself remains: is there something here that has a continuity of purpose that allows longer term goals to be pursued?

Thanks for your patience as I flesh this question out more clearly.

My sense is this line thinking will take you into thinking and conceptualizing. My response: obviously at the level of conventional language, subject, object, past, future, continuity and discontinuity there is a personality, memory, dispositions, continuity of will and memory, what we conventionally call a self or a person. So you can think about and attend to this and your experience will stay in dualism. Or you can keep looking if there is any agent at all in direct experience here now, 100% focused without digression to valid philosophical thinking like the one you brought here. You can stay on it until it's clear beyond any doubt that the experience of separate self in control is not even a real option - experientially, in the heart. Then it won't make a difference or be a problem that on the conventional level there is a person or "self". It will be clear that this phenomenon is just "a practical descriptor operating from mystery" (words fail...) with no choice or agency. So I would recommend you to not digress from inquiry into finding a separate self in the moment in direct experience until you cant deny liberation.

Another answer came up for you: The capacity to plan, to commit, to perservere etc. continues to function and be relevant. Seeing through the self illusion neither dissolve these capacities nor improve the limitations of them. It just becomes clear that they are natural processes functioning without an agent/self, and that imagining a self that has them is a fantasy and/or a descriptor for communication. Maybe this blog might give inspiration in relation to this as well.

https://www.simplytheseen.com/no-self-o ... -self.html