Hellou friends

[WoollyShower]

You are smart and observe well. Now, please understand the point of the questions is not for you to end with the right conceptual understanding. It's to shift the pattern that still creates doubt or a belief that you are a self. If it "feels philosophical" it's a good sign for you just to look more and more wholeheartedly until doubt is gone. I could ask you to find me an upside down circle. It could work if you look wholeheartedly enough. Are you up for the task with full commitment and to put all you have in it?

So how I understand this task is that I‘m supposed to watch the thoughts with high alertness to go beyond them, right? How do I do that when my attention is constantly switching around. Like I‘m not supposed to use willpower to force a single focus, that‘s not required. I have a hunch that these pointings are meant for people who can control their attention. That is the doubt I have. That I‘m not able to do it in this way that you are trying to point me in, because I am not able to focus my attention for long enough to be able to see the thoughts more clearly. (if you have “slight ADHD” yourself, was there something that helped you in your process?)

Other than that I cannot find any doubt about this at all. I am very motivated, I mean my orientation is clearly and profoundly towards cutting through mind identification. Maybe I‘m not using the right words for you to understand me, my words often project uncertainty to other people. There is no doubt here. Just a lack of clarity of how am I supposed to do this. I am not looking for conceptual understanding. I am looking for clear instructions.

Ok there is a lot of anger & frustration arising now, not being heard, seen. Needing to explain myself over and over again, people don‘t get it anyway. What‘s the point.

I cannot find a real thinker of thoughts in direct experience, eg sensations, attention, thoughts (without content), perception,…

What am I supposed to do when the fear comes while looking?

What could possibly be a self that could wake up? What could possibly be a separate self?

Look at all aspects of experience moment to moment, thoughts, feelings, sensations, attention, breath, movement... Is this the self that is confused and could wake up? Is this?

There is no self in any of these things. Self is a useful concept for communicating perspective. But it’s not a real thing, I am not able to find it in my direct experience.

I need clearer instructions of what I should do. You want me to sit and look at all aspects of direct experience moment to moment? I can’t. Like I try but my attention just keeps flicking around to other things and then I become frustrated and helpless because I don’t know what to do. I don’t wanna be forcing my attention and anyway there is no point.

If I go to sleep my thoughts stop (for some part of the night at least ). But in the morning I have a feeling of how restful my night was. I had an experience. Thought wasn’t necessary for that.

Ok so I know that I’m not my thoughts conceptually, and that there is no self there. Experientially though it’s hard for me to confirm that, because of the attention spinning around and around. I can go from thoughts to sensations though, which is very useful. I am not sure if you caught that. I feel the tension or pressure that the thoughts create in my head. And then I can relax that pressure by focusing my loving attention there. Is that useful?

On a second reading of the question I saw that you mentioned breath. I am not able to observe my uncontrolled breath. When I focus on the breath it becomes controlled. It’s weird. The first meditation object I get introduced to is the breath. Never worked for me. Maybe that’s a way in? Focus on what’s controlling the breath. What makes for a controlled breath. There’s selfing, clear as day. What do I do with it?

Ok now I notice that there is a person here that’s trying to answer your questions correctly. Tension needs to control the body and put a lot of effort in making sure what’s up. Unrelated to the controlled breathing example above.

Don't let your analysis control this cause it won't get anywhere except becoming even more intellectually more refined then most people, which you all ready are. Fine and good, serves well many places. Not the point for waking up.

What makes you think that my analysis is controlling this process? Maybe it helps me seeing what I am missing. My understanding is that I’m describing direct experience in answer to your questions and adding some relevant tidbits here and there to give context that might be useful for the process. And to ask some clarifying questions so I can answer your questions more truthfully and not just “guess what you mean” (which I’m not very good at).

[Elad]

You are smart and observe well. Now, please understand the point of the questions is not for you to end with the right conceptual understanding. It's to shift the pattern that still creates doubt or a belief that you are a self. If it "feels philosophical" it's a good sign for you just to look more and more wholeheartedly until doubt is gone. I could ask you to find me an upside down circle. It could work if you look wholeheartedly enough. Are you up for the task with full commitment and to put all you have in it?

So how I understand this task is that I‘m supposed to watch the thoughts with high alertness to go beyond them, right? How do I do that when my attention is constantly switching around. Like I‘m not supposed to use willpower to force a single focus, that‘s not required. I have a hunch that these pointings are meant for people who can control their attention. That is the doubt I have. That I‘m not able to do it in this way that you are trying to point me in, because I am not able to focus my attention for long enough to be able to see the thoughts more clearly. (if you have “slight ADHD” yourself, was there something that helped you in your process?)

Other than that I cannot find any doubt about this at all. I am very motivated, I mean my orientation is clearly and profoundly towards cutting through mind identification. Maybe I‘m not using the right words for you to understand me, my words often project uncertainty to other people. There is no doubt here. Just a lack of clarity of how am I supposed to do this. I am not looking for conceptual understanding. I am looking for clear instructions.

Ok there is a lot of anger & frustration arising now, not being heard, seen. Needing to explain myself over and over again, people don‘t get it anyway. What‘s the point.

I cannot find a real thinker of thoughts in direct experience, eg sensations, attention, thoughts (without content), perception,…

What am I supposed to do when the fear comes while looking?

What could possibly be a self that could wake up? What could possibly be a separate self?

Look at all aspects of experience moment to moment, thoughts, feelings, sensations, attention, breath, movement... Is this the self that is confused and could wake up? Is this?

There is no self in any of these things. Self is a useful concept for communicating perspective. But it’s not a real thing, I am not able to find it in my direct experience.

I need clearer instructions of what I should do. You want me to sit and look at all aspects of direct experience moment to moment? I can’t. Like I try but my attention just keeps flicking around to other things and then I become frustrated and helpless because I don’t know what to do. I don’t wanna be forcing my attention and anyway there is no point.

If I go to sleep my thoughts stop (for some part of the night at least ). But in the morning I have a feeling of how restful my night was. I had an experience. Thought wasn’t necessary for that.

Ok so I know that I’m not my thoughts conceptually, and that there is no self there. Experientially though it’s hard for me to confirm that, because of the attention spinning around and around. I can go from thoughts to sensations though, which is very useful. I am not sure if you caught that. I feel the tension or pressure that the thoughts create in my head. And then I can relax that pressure by focusing my loving attention there. Is that useful?

On a second reading of the question I saw that you mentioned breath. I am not able to observe my uncontrolled breath. When I focus on the breath it becomes controlled. It’s weird. The first meditation object I get introduced to is the breath. Never worked for me. Maybe that’s a way in? Focus on what’s controlling the breath. What makes for a controlled breath. There’s selfing, clear as day. What do I do with it?

Ok now I notice that there is a person here that’s trying to answer your questions correctly. Tension needs to control the body and put a lot of effort in making sure what’s up. Unrelated to the controlled breathing example above.

Don't let your analysis control this cause it won't get anywhere except becoming even more intellectually more refined then most people, which you all ready are. Fine and good, serves well many places. Not the point for waking up.

What makes you think that my analysis is controlling this process? Maybe it helps me seeing what I am missing. My understanding is that I’m describing direct experience in answer to your questions and adding some relevant tidbits here and there to give context that might be useful for the process. And to ask some clarifying questions so I can answer your questions more truthfully and not just “guess what you mean” (which I’m not very good at).

I was a lot like this in the past. The sense of knowing better and at the same time doubting both self and others and everything on a primal level. Very intelligent and catching the parts in guides/others that don't see me, instead of trusting and hearing and using their ecouragement. Defending myself, simultaneously thinking I know what the difference between seeing and thinking is, and at the same time being so identified with ego thoughts I was not willing to face. It's not easy and sometimes the intelligence makes it harder, it gives a million subtle ways to be distant. There are people with ADHD who went through the gateless gate with "this method" (btw this is not a structured method and my way of interacting with you could change a lot anytime). You don't need high concentration ability. You do need high motivitation, humbleness that you might be fundamentally wrong about what the problem is and perserverence in the face of feeling helpless and not knowing and frustrated. All the ways this seems to not work for you are not hindrances, they are more ways it shows that there is no separate self existing and in control. Once you fully accept that this is all ready so, and it is all ready seen, the shift will happen. The signs will be feeling humblness, gratitude and peace, instead of anger, defensiveness and a simutaneous "knowing better" co-existing with a sense of not enoughness and lack.

[Elad]

The sense I have is you are all ready VERY CLOSE to recognizing. But this very often will be completely invisible to you until the shift has happened.

[Elad]

I do get everything you say. The insecurity. The sense of mind not concentrated. The sense of breath not being free with attention on it. None of it is a problem here. None of it is a self.

[Elad]

One last thing for now. I am sorry you get the impression with me that I don't see you. It is possible that I have things to learn about how best to help you, even expectable. I am doing and will do my best to keep a balance between being open to that and keeping pointing you in a direction that might not seem clear or maybe even possible for you, but is directing you to a place which one cannot know before it opens.

[WoollyShower]

ok so idk, i am familiar with pointing at things that folks are unable to conceptualise or see. it’s a very funny game sometimes. but jeah, i am trying my best to understand what you’re telling me, and i believe you and trust you but all i can say is i have no clue what i’m supposed to do or not do. from my perspective i am talking about my direct experience and asking questions to understand you better. not sure what else i should do the pointing seems super vague to me, which is a familiar feeling cause i have trouble with understanding social cues my whole life so it feels familiar being in a place where things just go over my head and people bully me for asking “naive” questions.

i had this feeling on some level before of being super close but on some other level i haven’t started yet at all

thanks for your support :)

[Elad]

Lets try this. Find a nice place to sit, could be a cafe, could be park, etc. Have a pen and paper. Make a mark on the paper when you notice spontaneous occurances not chosen or controlled by "a self"/"a controller"/"a chooser". As you intellectually know this is the case all the time. But for the purposes of making this experiential make a mark every time you notice that something that would conventionally be described as your doing is happening spontaneously. Stuff like thoughts, movements, attention shifts, feelings, urges, etc. Do this for 10-20-30 min and write me what was noticed :)

[WoollyShower]

Thanks, that was fun. I did a bit more than 20min.

First, there was a lot of things to mark down. I could never mark them all. But I enjoyed the exercise because there was something clear to do.

Some grinning and giggling happened. Some yawning. Boredom. Fear. Some lazyness at some point.

Thoughts are generally felt kind forced, means there was a tension associated with them: I have to, should… They were holding expectation about what this should be or what should happen. Thinking about how to do this right, strategizing how to do it better.

More ruminating thoughts towards the end. What does it imply that I’m not doing it. A sense of confusion, trying to understand. More fear towards the end.

At the end I caught myself thoughtlessly putting ticks on the paper, so I had to put some more ticks for putting ticks, that was meta.

[Elad]

Thanks, that was fun. I did a bit more than 20min.

First, there was a lot of things to mark down. I could never mark them all. But I enjoyed the exercise because there was something clear to do.

Some grinning and giggling happened. Some yawning. Boredom. Fear. Some lazyness at some point.

Thoughts are generally felt kind forced, means there was a tension associated with them: I have to, should… They were holding expectation about what this should be or what should happen. Thinking about how to do this right, strategizing how to do it better.

More ruminating thoughts towards the end. What does it imply that I’m not doing it. A sense of confusion, trying to understand. More fear towards the end.

At the end I caught myself thoughtlessly putting ticks on the paper, so I had to put some more ticks for putting ticks, that was meta.

Great, this is moving well. I suggest do it more times and write me what happens. You are right you can't note all because it would be an infinite amount, it would be everything. So when you practice again, try to use the intuition or felt sense to note the things happening by themselves where it is particularly clear or interesting that they happen by themselves.

Could be stuff like surprising associations and images clearly happening by themselves. Could also be stuff like suddenly seeing clearer that the trying hard and controlling and evaluating happens by itself. As best you can have a playful exploratory attitude with this.

Write to me about what is seen.

And also, here is another exercise to use during the day, and report on. It sometimes supports this process to do:

[Elad]

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour

Smelling coffee, simply = smell

Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation

Tasting the coffee, simply = taste

Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound

Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

So as you go through the day, it might go like: sound, sight, thought, sound, feeling, feeling, thought (this was me doing it for a few seconds). It's not about getting every shift which is impossible. Just playfully do this and it will bring attention to how things flow in other ways.

One time during the day sit for 5 minutes and attend to experience in this way while while writing to me in real time. Here is me doing it for a few seconds, to give a sense of it:

Hearing jazz music, simply= sound
Looking at computer tabs, simply= sight
Feeling butt on chair, simply= sensation
Thinking if to go on more, simply= thought
scratching in the leg, simply= sensation


Just explore this during daily activities when appropriate and write me what is seen.

[WoollyShower]

thanks! I’ll do that and report back.

One time during the day sit for 5 minutes and attend to experience in this way while while writing to me in real time. Here is me doing it for a few seconds, to give a sense of it:

Hearing jazz music, simply= sound
Looking at computer tabs, simply= sight
Feeling butt on chair, simply= sensation
Thinking if to go on more, simply= thought
scratching in the leg, simply= sensation

just to clarify, i am supposed to write this result of the 5 minute exercise exactly as you wrote above, right?

what does “simply” refer to in this format?
and am i supposed to say the = out loud?

just saying the DE and then saying “simply equals sound” is how I understood the exercise…

[Elad]

thanks! I’ll do that and report back.

One time during the day sit for 5 minutes and attend to experience in this way while while writing to me in real time. Here is me doing it for a few seconds, to give a sense of it:

Hearing jazz music, simply= sound
Looking at computer tabs, simply= sight
Feeling butt on chair, simply= sensation
Thinking if to go on more, simply= thought
scratching in the leg, simply= sensation

just to clarify, i am supposed to write this result of the 5 minute exercise exactly as you wrote above, right?

what does “simply” refer to in this format?
and am i supposed to say the = out loud?

just saying the DE and then saying “simply equals sound” is how I understood the exercise…

Right so you sit in real time, something comes into attention (a woman talking, the colors on the screen, etc) and you write:

woman talking, simply=sound

The format with "simply=X: is meant to support connecting to the simplicity of direct experience. The level where things are not yet conceptualized into objects and categories (woman, computer, fingers, etc).

So the important thing is just write as you practice: notice something, notice what sense gate it is, then write it.

The "simply" is not important and the "=" is not important. If you prefer you can write:

Woman talking -> sound
Cop on the table -> sight
Fingers tapping -> sensations

[WoollyShower]

Thanks so much for clarifying That helps so much!

[Elad]

Thanks so much for clarifying That helps so much!

🙏 ☀️ 🙌

[WoollyShower]

Ticking exercise yesterday: Lot of yawning and burping. Noticed that there is an energy of proving myself, doing the task well, trying to be a good kid.
Ticking exercise today: Easy to get lulled into a sense of just doing it, without actually checking. Just noticing something and putting a tick without checking if a self/controller/chooser did it. Strong belief of "I can't do it", that it's too hard. Coupled with a sense of "lazyness" which says "I know the result already, I don't need to look". Looking takes too much effort. (typical ADHD task avoidance, I know this from many many many other situations). There is a sense of "have to" connected to this exercise. Not flowing so easily today, but I'm still doing it :)

Here's the second exercise from today:
ringing in my ears -> sound/sensation
contraction in my chest -> sensation
taste in my mouth -> taste
tension in my throat -> sensation
keyboards tapping -> sound
feeling the keyboard as fingers are moving on the keys -> sensation
soft pressure inside my head -> sensation
tension in my chest -> sensation
cold in my fingers -> sensation
inner monologue about this exercise -> thought
water bottle on the table -> colour/image
person walking outside my window in the snow -> colour/image
concentration after focusing releasing -> sensation
orange cable on my desk -> colour/image
thinking retroactively about how to write / expand things that I saw but my attention was too fast for it to register in the moment -> thought
soft pain in my chest -> sensation
sadness / pain in my heart -> sensation + thought