So what

[Elad]

These rejective and evaluative and judgemental thoughts are they you?

They’re not me but seems to be mine…in DE, if the process is slowed down that “mine-ness” is a sensation in the body

Is anyone doing them or choosing them or do they just appear? Same question for "selfing" thoughts

All of them just appear, no doer or chooser… the selfing ones just refer to themselves so…just a mirror game

Also regarding the "watcher", is there actually "a watcher" or might you as well say there is just "watching"? Can you find a "wathcer" separate from the whole of life/experience?

Only watching and thoughts reflecting on what is seen

Great.

Now look is there anything where "your control" is helping or needed?

I am not asking if there are things where concentration or deliberate practice helps conventionally speaking. Of course. But in DE can you find a moment where your control or strain helps, or does everything moment to moment take optimal care of itself.

Explore this with:

1) Breath

2) Body comfort

3) Making a choice you care about

4) Social interaction.

[Malva]

Now look is there anything where "your control" is helping or needed?

1) Breath

Only in breathing exercises or techniques seems to be some kind or control ( although the could be considerate as deliberate practices as you said), but even the impulse or thought about doing them appears, no control. Breathing is spontaneously regulated and no control is needed or helps

2) Body comfort

There´s a long story of body image issues and eating disorders here so that´s a tricky one.
In DE I´ve seen that any attempt to control or not control what I eat is unuseful and brings a lot of suffering but there´s no control over that attempts either so it feels so helplessness when the unworthy narrative appears

3) Making a choice you care about

When I´m trapped in thoughts there´s so much doubt always, in DE doubting happens, lot of thoughts, then the decision is made and evaluating thoughts appears too....so not helping at all

4) Social interaction.

In social interactions there's always so much self judgment appearing, seems to be so much self control and people pleasing and not one of them helps in anyway

[Elad]

"Only in breathing exercises or techniques seems to be some kind or control ( although the could be considerate as deliberate practices as you said), but even the impulse or thought about doing them appears, no control. Breathing is spontaneously regulated and no control is needed or helps"

Right the question is not if breathing exercises can do good. Sure they can. The question is if in DE you find that there is a posiblity for a self to control the breath. The question would be the same during a breathing exercise - is a breathing exercise controlled by a separate self?



"There´s a long story of body image issues and eating disorders here so that´s a tricky one.
In DE I´ve seen that any attempt to control or not control what I eat is unuseful and brings a lot of suffering but there´s no control over that attempts either so it feels so helplessness when the unworthy narrative appears"

Sorry to hear. Right again these things can be worked with in good quality psychotherapy. This work neither negates nor (always) replaces that kind of work. The point here is to look in DE where all the real information and change come from. Even if it is called psychotherapy or yoga or a hot bath, etc. Our point here is only: In DE does information and change come from reality as a seamless whole, or from a separate self?


"When I´m trapped in thoughts there´s so much doubt always, in DE doubting happens, lot of thoughts, then the decision is made and evaluating thoughts appears too....so not helping at all"

Right. And who or what is trapped? Is there anyone trapped or just an experience of these thoughts including I-thoughts?

"In social interactions there's always so much self judgment appearing, seems to be so much self control and people pleasing and not one of them helps in anyway"

Sorry it is this way for you. And good you see the illusion of a self that tries to control and please doesn't help in DE.


So how does it feel to see this?

Is there a separate self in any form or shape, has there ever been?

[Malva]

is a breathing exercise controlled by a separate self?

Not, only sensations and thoughts

In DE does information and change come from reality as a seamless whole, or from a separate self?

Emotional and shadow work has been the key for me after years of body disconnection…and now I see the gift in disguise, that has been my call to look in. DE is being the way to break the spell of mind identification. In DE all the patterns of thought appears, I can’t find a thinker and the same with sensations or restlessness energy…and seeing there’s “no one” that “has to” feel them, no separate self, there’s no reason and no one to avoid them either

And who or what is trapped

Just a thought

Is there anyone trapped or just an experience of these thoughts including I-thoughts?

Only the experience of thoughts, thought reflecting themselves

So how does it feel to see this?

Relief 😌

Is there a separate self in any form or shape, has there ever been?

No!! only a sense of it, like the colours in a rainbow….Albert Einstein quote is appearing here now: Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one 😅

[Elad]

is a breathing exercise controlled by a separate self?

Not, only sensations and thoughts

In DE does information and change come from reality as a seamless whole, or from a separate self?

Emotional and shadow work has been the key for me after years of body disconnection…and now I see the gift in disguise, that has been my call to look in. DE is being the way to break the spell of mind identification. In DE all the patterns of thought appears, I can’t find a thinker and the same with sensations or restlessness energy…and seeing there’s “no one” that “has to” feel them, no separate self, there’s no reason and no one to avoid them either

And who or what is trapped

Just a thought

Is there anyone trapped or just an experience of these thoughts including I-thoughts?

Only the experience of thoughts, thought reflecting themselves

So how does it feel to see this?

Relief 😌

Is there a separate self in any form or shape, has there ever been?

No!! only a sense of it, like the colours in a rainbow….Albert Einstein quote is appearing here now: Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one 😅

Wonderful!

Does anything unclear regarding the illusion of a separate self? Any questions?

[Elad]

Does anything *feel* unclear

[Malva]

Does anything *feel* unclear

There’s some fearful thoughts about “losing it” and other ones trying to grasp it, but this is not an understanding, it’s not a “thing”
In DE there’s no one separate from the experience so all those thoughts are meaningless, can’t be a believe without a believer only thoughts reflecting on thoughts….
Whenver I’ll look at “my socks” instead of thinking about them…it’s clear 😊

[Elad]

Does anything *feel* unclear

There’s some fearful thoughts about “losing it” and other ones trying to grasp it, but this is not an understanding, it’s not a “thing”
In DE there’s no one separate from the experience so all those thoughts are meaningless, can’t be a believe without a believer only thoughts reflecting on thoughts….
Whenver I’ll look at “my socks” instead of thinking about them…it’s clear 😊

Exactly. There are some final questions we always give around this point, then three other guides review to see if we can support any more clarity. I could send them to you now. Or we could wait and see how you feel for the next day or two, if questions come up and how you feel.

[Elad]

Maybe also take a look at:

What does personal responsibility refer to?

What does free will refer to?

[Malva]

we could wait and see how you feel for the next day or two, if questions come up and how you feel.

That would be nice, some time to “digest”… “patience to wait till mud settles and the water is clear remaining unmoving till the right action arise by itself” says the Tao, don’t need to rush

Maybe also take a look at:

What does personal responsibility refer to?

What does free will refer to?

I’ ll explore that 🙏🏻

Thank you so much ❤️

[Elad]

we could wait and see how you feel for the next day or two, if questions come up and how you feel.

That would be nice, some time to “digest”… “patience to wait till mud settles and the water is clear remaining unmoving till the right action arise by itself” says the Tao, don’t need to rush

Maybe also take a look at:

What does personal responsibility refer to?

What does free will refer to?

I’ ll explore that 🙏🏻

Thank you so much ❤️

Yes! Beautiful 💗

[Malva]

Maybe also take a look at:

What does personal responsibility refer to?

What does free will refer to?

I’ve been contemplating these aspects this afternoon and in both cases depends on the level from which we answer, as a character in the story or dream of separation or beyond the illusion.

For the first question this analogy came to me… when it’s raining, from and outside point of view the cloud we see above is the cause of it, but that cloud is a result of a lot of conditions and not “responsible” of the rain. In the same way, in the relative, each body mind seems to be responsible of its actions or decisions and the consequences but is a conditioned “entity” or conditioned expression of life.
Beyond the dream of separation there’s not such a things as clouds or body/minds..only This.

The “free will” is a tricky one because can be made into a believe as any other spiritual concept. Like with bypassing emotions because “there’s no one to feel them”. In DE is clear that there’s no chooser but the moment that apparent decision appears is a remainder to look and see that there’s no other option outside a thought for what’s happening


But, of course, all this writing is a happening too and a part of the story…the “wordland” world 😅…

[Elad]

Crystal clear 🤍

[Malva]

Hi Elad,

Just a little check in here. Has been a day of DE observation for me and different glimpses here and there…seeing all the thoughts that appear as and attempt to predict and translate experience writing a script trying to make sense and give meaning out of this DE, perceptual inputs. And then more thoughts reflecting this “understanding” to grasp it and avoid the unknown. With the last ones has appeared some kind of sense of being “the one who knows” but in DE can’ t be found.

Thank you ❤️

[Malva]

Hi, Elad

A question appears…Are selfing thoughts just appearing as a function of this body/mind to “navigate” experience and is the pushing or pulling on them what give them charge? Is that what we call identification here?
I’ ve been observing these days that resistance to selfing thoughts giving me that sense of being “the one” who has to stay vigilance and who has some kind of control to make them appear or not.

Thank you ❤️