What is This?

[Bluejay]

Wonderful!

Usually when things get intense and all we want to do is run away, that's when, if we look, there can be a shift.

'A noise can be detected', which is translated by the mind as 'I can hear a train passing by'. The train bit is neccessary but the 'I' bit is not.

And when you look, is there someone hearing, or just a sound?

Feel free to also do the palm exercise above.

[avva]

Look at the words "The left brain controls thoughts," is that the controller?

No. Thoughts don’t control anything. Do they control body sensations?

If there is a sensation in the body, is that sensation the controller?

No. Sensations can’t control anything.

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Again, is there an actual I doing something, or just thought about an I?

Just thoughts about an ‘I’.

Look at the sensations in the stomach. Is there an I there that is controlling something?

No.

How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

No.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

It just turns on its own.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

It just happened.

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. Not in direct experience. Only in thoughts.

There is a seeing here that there is no ‘I’, that there is no doer. The thinker though tricks ‘me’ again and again. Thoughts happen, they suck attention in, and they are believed. When the pull of the thoughts weakens, thoughts like ‘Rubbish! There’s no ‘I’’ are added. There is still a belief in the thinker, although it has been seen many times that thoughts just appear on their own.

Usually when things get intense and all we want to do is run away, that's when, if we look, there can be a shift.

I look but no shift yet.

And when you look, is there someone hearing, or just a sound?

There is just the sound.

[Bluejay]

Do they control body sensations?

Look if you can find a connection between sensations and thoughts?

Thoughts happen, they suck attention in, and they are believed. When the pull of the thoughts weakens, thoughts like ‘Rubbish! There’s no ‘I’’ are added. There is still a belief in the thinker, although it has been seen many times that thoughts just appear on their own.

Yes, it's normal that as some layers become less strong (like a belief in a doer), others come to the forefront (thinker).

The cleanup crew has cleaned the floors and now see there is something on the walls 😁.

Notice if there is any control over this process happening?

Also, close your eyes, and as each thought comes up, try to find the thinker of the thoughts. What do you find?

Do you find a thinker, or just more thoughts about a thinker?

Another angle: When a thought arises, look for the border between thinker and thought.

I look but no shift yet.

Is there some evaluation thought constantly looking for a shift?

If yes, what is its function? What is it trying to accomplish?

[avva]

Look if you can find a connection between sensations and thoughts?

Thoughts can cause body sensations called emotions. Thoughts can cause saliva to start forming. The ‘I’ thought causes a knot in the stomach. Thoughts can cause the heart beat faster and hyperventillation.

Notice if there is any control over this process happening?

There isn’t any control.

Also, close your eyes, and as each thought comes up, try to find the thinker of the thoughts. What do you find?

The thinker, a separate entity from the thought, cannot be found.

Do you find a thinker, or just more thoughts about a thinker?

Thoughts about the thinker (searching for it).

I find that looking for something is already a thought. And when you are looking among thoughts for a thinker, using a thought as a guide, then all you have is more thoughts.

Another angle: When a thought arises, look for the border between thinker and thought.

I cannot find any border.

Is there some evaluation thought constantly looking for a shift?

Yes. A judgemental thought, saying this is not okay.

If yes, what is its function? What is it trying to accomplish?

It is trying to control, to hasten realisation. It is resisting what is.

Two days ago I woke up to a loud voice (a thought) in the head saying: Give up all control!
How to give up the idea of control? How to surrender to what is? Is there anyone who gives up, who surrenders? These thoughst are just happening on their own.
‘I’ say the words ‘I surrender’ in my head. But it just happened in my head, without anyone causing it. Is it simply because it’s now time for these thoughts to appear?

[Bluejay]

I find that looking for something is already a thought. And when you are looking among thoughts for a thinker, using a thought as a guide, then all you have is more thoughts.

Are you looking by trying to think about it?

Looking like you would look for a bird in a tree is seeing. So when looking for a thinker, we look in direct experience of see, hear, feel, no?

It is trying to control, to hasten realisation. It is resisting what is.

Is it working?

If not, is hastening realization its true function, or is there something else?

What is the true motive? Need for control is fueled by fear.

What would happen if all control was seen through?

Two days ago I woke up to a loud voice (a thought) in the head saying: Give up all control!
How to give up the idea of control? How to surrender to what is? Is there anyone who gives up, who surrenders? These thoughst are just happening on their own.
‘I’ say the words ‘I surrender’ in my head. But it just happened in my head, without anyone causing it. Is it simply because it’s now time for these thoughts to appear?

Exactly, there is no inherent self that can surrender, but surrendering can happen. What happens is simply the stopping of the illusion of control.

You could try using 'thy will be done' as a mantra for a while, or you can use another sentence. 'Thy' in this sentence can refer to anything: life, nature, allness, etc.

See what comes up each time you say it. Feel any resistance and welcome everything.

Sit or lie down once or twice a day and let everything be.

[avva]

Are you looking by trying to think about it?

The question ‘where is the self/thinker?’ is a thought. I was looking in direct experience, but I had to keep this thought in mind in order to know what I am doing.

Is it working?

No.

If not, is hastening realization its true function, or is there something else?

What is the true motive? Need for control is fueled by fear.

There is a huge fear that realisation will not happen here.

What would happen if all control was seen through?

There is fear of helplessness. If all control was seen through, there would be panicking.

Last night I finally realised that I am not the thinker. I saw that ego is pretending to be ‘me’. Ego is like a cancer that grew in the mind and then calls itself ‘I’. Every time I say ‘I’, it’s ego talking. I can’t even say ‘I am awareness’ or ‘I am presence’ – that’s only ego talking. I am so angry!! I am disgusted with all the thoughts that are appearing here.
I am concentrating on 100% mindfulness, but thoughts suck attention in again and again. I just come back again and again to the present moment. And surrender.

[Bluejay]

Last night I finally realised that I am not the thinker. I saw that ego is pretending to be ‘me’. Ego is like a cancer that grew in the mind and then calls itself ‘I’. Every time I say ‘I’, it’s ego talking. I can’t even say ‘I am awareness’ or ‘I am presence’ – that’s only ego talking. I am so angry!! I am disgusted with all the thoughts that are appearing here.
I am concentrating on 100% mindfulness, but thoughts suck attention in again and again. I just come back again and again to the present moment. And surrender.

Feel the anger fully and welcome the story about what you're angry about as well so you can feel all of it.

It can be helpful to be angry at all this since you're seeing through it, so be with the anger for as long as is needed.

Then question what the ego is in direct experience. Does it exist?

And also: Thoughts are never the problem, only the reaction and meaning that is created in response.

The question ‘where is the self/thinker?’ is a thought. I was looking in direct experience, but I had to keep this thought in mind in order to know what I am doing.

If you forget what you're doing when looking for the thinker, that is the answer. The lack of an answer is the answer.

There is a huge fear that realisation will not happen here.
There is fear of helplessness. If all control was seen through, there would be panicking.

On the one hand there is fear that realization will not happen, and on the other there is fear of panic.

This is what thoughts do, there is fear everywhere.

My approach has always been to dive fully into the fear. If fear says that I will lose all control and end up homeless if I continue, the response is "let's see."

That approach only appeared after years of giving in to fears.

[avva]

I feel stupid, Henri.

[Bluejay]

Tell me more?

Also tell me if there is a feeling in the body that is avoided by the story "I am/feel stupid"?

[avva]

The mind has always been the only fix point. Something to hold on to. Now it turns out that the mind is not 'me'. It cannot be trusted. In fact, it is the very cause of the problem. The one that seemed to be 'my voice' is a liar, an impostor. But then where is the 'me'? Is the 'me' going to disappear now? I guess it is existential fear, although I am not feeling it strongly yet. Fully knowing that only the illusion of a 'me' will disappear, and not the feeling of aliveness.

[Bluejay]

Yes, thinking is often used as a distraction from feeling, so it can be jarring when this is seen. But the distraction never worked in the first place. The thinking only served as an illusion of holding on to something. This becomes more clear as the dust settles.

But then where is the 'me'? Is the 'me' going to disappear now?

When you see that there was never a santa claus, does santa disappear?

Kind of a funny question when framed like that, isn't it?

All I can say is that it will be fine, because it was never any other way. There will be more freedom and lightness as this is seen fully. The fear is only a mirage, seemingly dangerous and real, but once it is fully felt and welcomed, it is seen that there was never anything to be afraid of.

And going back to feeling stupid. Notice who it is that is feeling stupid. Is this thought or feeling referring to anything?

[avva]

Hi Henri
Avva in the story had a very bad night, crying quietly for hours in bed. Yesterday avva read a conversation with Nona in the book Liberation Unleashed. At the beginning, when Nona didn’t understand the no self idea, she said ‘I feel stupid’. There was resonance with that sentence in avva. When Nona got the cosmic joke and laughed for three days, there was a deep sense of envy, guilt, and shame. Then she read the conversation with Sascha and when Sascha described his new-found freedom, avva felt she wanted to scream, but just a whimper came out of her mouth because there are always people in the house and she doesn’t want them to know what’s happening inside her. So she wrote ‘I feel stupid, Henri’ to you, thinking that this sentence when read by another human being is enough to relieve the horrible pain she is feeling. Then when she was writing about her realisation that the voice in the head was not her voice, she remembered some videos she saw in the past and started to write about existential fear, although not really feeling fear. Avva last night in bed realised that this character is an empty-headed biological robot, running on a programme. The programme is added to every day. She picks up pieces here and there and incorporates them into ‘herself’, pretending to be belonging to her. She realised that every thought that appears in the head is just a piece of the programme. Every word that comes out of her mouth is a lie. Every action she takes is conditioned. There is nothing authentic about this character. Everyhting about her is fake. She is unable to be honest because there is nothing honest in her. It’s all a lie. She wakes up every morning to nausea because the fake character is here again. ‘Is there anything that is not fake, that is not an illusion?’ she thinks. She used to do dyads online bu she stopped when she realised that only the fake character is communicating her fake thoughts. There was a belief in the goodness of the person, in her compassionate and loving heart, her intelligent mind, but all that is a story. There is no person at all, with any heart. There is just a robot with a lot of stories running in her mind. Her head is filled with nonsense rubbish, thinking them to be her self talking, her precious thoughts. She creates an identity for herself with her memories, her golden moments in life, her fake history. And there is nothing that can be done about this whole sickening play. Avva’s thoughts and feelings and actions can only be witnessed.

[Bluejay]

Thanks for the honesty!

It can be very challenging when the illusion begins breaking down.

She creates an identity for herself with her memories, her golden moments in life, her fake history. And there is nothing that can be done about this whole sickening play. Avva’s thoughts and feelings and actions can only be witnessed.

The view you've adopted on this (robot, sickening, lies) is a negative one, and often that is used to avoid feeling fully what's in the body.

You also mentioned a witness, this can be used to distance from feeling. You don't have to force yourself to feel if you're not ready for it, but I notice this tendency in you to go into labeling and judging what's happening.

There seems to be a berating of the self (again: lies, robot, empty-headed, fake thoughts).

Do you notice what feelings you are avoiding? What is in the body when these thoughts and stories come up?

Please read this: https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/

[avva]

All I can see is an all-pervasive sense of unworthiness. It is producing depression and a sick feeling in the stomach. There is also tiredness and hopelessness.

[Bluejay]

Do you have a way of working with emotions and things coming up such as this?

The way through is to feel everything fully as much as you can. As the illusion of self begins to be seen through, these things that have been avoided start bubbling up. Maybe there's a young avva in there that never received love or understanding. If so, be the provider of that now.

It's good to remember that if things flip (positive to negative), such as things begin seeming meaningless, fake, robotic, those things need to be included in it.

In other words, the mind takes over and says "It's all meaningless." But that view that things are meaningless is itself meaningless. Any concept, story, or thought is itself a trap, if that makes sense.