Tired of searching

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

Thank you for your lovely post. I so understand what you're writing about. Thank you for sharing what is going on with you.

Still I haven't seen how what is happening is not caused by the self.

This is just an ideia you have about what is going on, yes? You think you haven't seen, while you are looking, and can't see a self in what you're looking at. Ahah, that's how the illusion works. You look it in the eyes and it still tricks you into believing that what you're thinking is more real than what you're seeing.

What happens if you approach this the other way around? When you look to what is happening, is it caused by a self? Caused by a findable thing, that is separated from other things, some-thing permanent, solid, always present?

Only by logic can I understand that this is not possible as the self is only an illusion.

Yes, I get that, but I don't think that's how this goes. Let me try to explain.
First you see.
Then, eventually, understanding happens.

Whe can and are used to rely on logic to try to understand everything, but when our understanding changes our logic changes. So, how reliable can be something that shifts into something else? The way you understood life in your childhood and the way you understand life now isn't the same.

This seeing is always the same. It's reliable and always available. You may think and feel and understand what is being seen, but it's the seeing that is always accurate and available and present and here/now.

There is no need to understand or to use logic to see what we are pointing at on LU.

Can you see a self when you look?

If you can't, that's it.

It may take a while to grok this, but is as simple as that, it's just plain looking, without overwriting the seeing with thinking about the seeing. And when overwriting happens you know that the thinking isn't about something real, the same way you know you can be thinking about Santa, at Christmas time, and Santa isn't real.

Returning to my hands moving over the screan... writing this - I cannot distinguish what is making the operation working if not the self. So I am watching the hands.... nothing comes to clarity.

Dearest, isn't the absence of a real self, here/now, the answer to all doubts?

There must be some reason(s) why you can't trust what you can see (or can't see) at the time being. Most likely some fear or expectations. Do you have any idea of why you seem to be a little stuck? At the moment what makes you believe a self is real?

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

Reading your lines and seeing the quoties - I could see that I am walking around in circles, like avoiding what is in front of me and very clear.
When I cannot find a self I doubt myself and there is a thought of that I am missing something, It must be more difficult than this.

Everytime I return to look for a self I cannot find it. The mind/thoughts/self is saying, look one more time surely it must exist. Thoughts having a talk, thoughts happening :)

What happens if you approach this the other way around? When you look to what is happening, is it caused by a self? Caused by a findable thing, that is separated from other things, some-thing permanent, solid, always present?

Not sure I understand what you are pointing to but if I look to the sensory processes I cannot find a self that is in charge of them happening, they just happen. Hearing happens, seeing happens, tasting happens, feeling happens etc. There cannot be a self causing it.

I will investigate the stickiness more and see if anything surfaces. It feels like there is somekind of fear hiding and also expectations of how this is supposed to go, what is supporsed to be seen and happen. A thought arises saying that it is difficult to not have those things. But I can see that this is not real, it is a belief.

I'll investigate what happens when adding some trust into what I see. Trusting the experience of seeing.

With love
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

When I cannot find a self I doubt myself and there is a thought of that I am missing something, It must be more difficult than this.

Why? Why should it be more difficult than this?

Looking forward to your reply,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

Sorry I coudn't write a proper post yesterday. There was something wrong with the LU website. Not sure if it was only here or a general error.

Why? Why should it be more difficult than this?

I've been contemplating and investigating this question. Why should it be more difficult than this is a good question. The simple answer feels too simple. Too obvious and not special at all.
There is an expactation and belief that there must be something more than this ordinary, totally normal experience of being. There is nothing that in that case is different. It is the absolute same as before. Nothing has changed, Everything is as it is, only difference is that there is a knowing of that I am not what I believed myself to be. I actually are not at all what I took myself to be. Other than the knowing of that all is same. My actions are the same. My thoughts are the same. The world is the same. Everyone is the same. This is my experience. Nothing specific has changed dramatically.

I am used to things being difficult so this is what I am expecring here too I guess. All mind created narratives and stories.
Letting those stories rest things are still the same as they were before. I might be a bit more observant and not buying into everything that the mind is telling, sometimes.... :)

Only a few chosen ones get to awaken, it takes hard work, it is only by the grace of xxx that it can happen. Awakening is like playing roulette, it is impossible to predict who is going to win! I guess I heard so many diffrent stories, read so many books, blogs, listened to many recordings and videos adding to my belief of how it should go, that it is only by grace that one can get freed from the illusion of one self. The layers and layers of what "others" has described and me believing in many of the things is making it harder to be open and allowing to what is. Stories upon stories....

Still sitting with the hand in front of me.... not seeing what is controlling it to move or not.

Much love
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

Sorry I coudn't write a proper post yesterday. There was something wrong with the LU website. Not sure if it was only here or a general error.

Yes, the site was having issues. Today it seems to be ok.

There is an expactation and belief that there must be something more than this ordinary, totally normal experience of being.

And maybe there is. Who knows? But I understand what you're saying, it's something that I can also experience sometimes. Anyway, your perception of reality may change. There is no way of knowing what is going to happen before it does.

Regarding expectations, notice how they fuel the seeking mode. If your thinking is a "yes, but..." type of thinking you are getting lost in the illusion: "Yes, I see what your pointing at, but it seems so ordinary!" -- > and you loose the relevance of the seeing and enter doubt/thinking mode. This is very normal and it is usefull to be aware that it happens while pondering about this.

Oh, maybe you're expecting the content of the thinking to change? In my experience it doesn't. The thinking doesn't have to change, that isn't our goal.

I've been contemplating and investigating this question. Why should it be more difficult than this is a good question. The simple answer feels too simple. Too obvious and not special at all.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same. What is the simple answer you're talking about?

There is nothing that in that case is different. It is the absolute same as before. Nothing has changed, Everything is as it is, only difference is that there is a knowing of that I am not what I believed myself to be. I actually are not at all what I took myself to be. Other than the knowing of that all is same. My actions are the same. My thoughts are the same. The world is the same. Everyone is the same. This is my experience. Nothing specific has changed dramatically.

Yes, chop wood, carry water :)

Only a few chosen ones get to awaken, it takes hard work, it is only by the grace of xxx that it can happen. Awakening is like playing roulette, it is impossible to predict who is going to win! I guess I heard so many diffrent stories, read so many books, blogs, listened to many recordings and videos adding to my belief of how it should go, that it is only by grace that one can get freed from the illusion of one self. The layers and layers of what "others" has described and me believing in many of the things is making it harder to be open and allowing to what is. Stories upon stories....

Awakening. Yes. To me seeing no self isn't about awakening. It's about getting a fact straight. There is no self. This is a fact. There is no need to awake to see a fact. Realizing a fact doesn't have to change anything.

Still sitting with the hand in front of me.... not seeing what is controlling it to move or not.

Yes, when I look to these hands typing I can't see what is typing. Other than the hands.

I'm not sure if you are seeing what I'm pointing at. It seems you are, but maybe you aren't. At the time being, can you see there is no real self? What can you see?

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

This feels so right what you are saying about getting the facts correct!

Awakening. Yes. To me seeing no self isn't about awakening. It's about getting a fact straight. There is no self. This is a fact. There is no need to awake to see a fact. Realizing a fact doesn't have to change anything.

To see there is no self is a fact. So direct and simple. This is what is been experienced these last days. I cannot say what and if somethings has changed but there is a profound clarity about this.
I love what you say about realizing a fact doesn't have to change a thing.
Me using the word awakening has no real meaning as I don't know what that stands for anyway. It is just a word.

During a couple of days there has been an experience of the mind not working "properly".... in the middle of me saying somehting to a friend - the words are suddenly lost in space...
This has been happening a couple of times, and the mind goes totally silent.
And I am bursting out in laughter. It feel fun and very new.

I'm not sure if you are seeing what I'm pointing at. It seems you are, but maybe you aren't. At the time being, can you see there is no real self? What can you see?

I cannot see a self. Looking and it cannot be found anywhere. The identification with a self has been connected with the bodily sensations, the senses, the thoughts. In my investigation I've been sure of that feeling the body means that this is me, my body. It is just sensations happening without a me experiencing that. Thoughts just happening, not me thinking the toughts. Body just moving, not anyone moving the body.

I do get what you are pointing to. And i very much appreciate you doing it.

Thank you
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

Thank you for your reply. Things seem to be steadily going in the right direction! Yay!

Yes, thinking this exploration is more complicated than it really is can get in the way. Fortunately seeing what is here now is always so simple and reliable.

I'm going to ask you some questions, one post at a time (probably, let's see how that goes), to keep the momentum going and see what comes up.

If I say:

There is a self inside the body.

The body is the self.

What comes up?

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

This is what comes up:
There is no self to be found in the body neither is the body the self. The self is a thought, a identification, a feeling, a belief of something, and that isn't real. This is what I see when looking.

The self want's to claim ownership over the sensations that is happening. When closing the eyes there is no body only sensations of something. That something, those sensations is what has been adressed as my body. There are only sensastions. No me.
There is only hearing happening, nothing called me in the body is making that to happen. It is the same thing with seeing, tasting, thinking, remebering, feeling, believing, doubting and so on...

The body has been taken to be the self - to be the person Sari, but in my investigation there is no Sari in the body. All those are beliefs and mind made creations, illusions.

There has been a misunderstanding and misinterpretation happening. Believing in that when there is something called pain in the body, it can be taken as proof of a self being in the body. When investigating this - the self cannot be found, only sensations, movements, energy happening.

Observing other people around there seems to be something changed in the way I perceive them, see them. A hollowness, like only bodies are walking, talking, sitting, doing things. Nothing that is making that to happen, Nothing inside. It seems a bit uncomfortable in a way. Like dead bodies walking around and that there is nothing present here - more than this emptiness.

Thank you
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari! Well done!

You have also looked to others while seeing this. Good. Isn't it amazing to realize there isn't a real self inside anyone?

Nothing that is making that to happen, Nothing inside. It seems a bit uncomfortable in a way. Like dead bodies walking around and that there is nothing present here - more than this emptiness.

It seems to me you went into a negative, kind of depressing line of thinking while looking at others? Any idea why?

It is possible to believe these thoughts are real, sure, but when looking at others, can you really see what is animating their aliveness? Is it possible to see what is causing life's happenings?

How could you know there is nothing inside the body making things happen? Or how could you know if there is something inside the body making things happen? Is there a way, other than believing what we have been taught? Can you find a good reason to believe the labeling about what is being seen? Does the labeling equal facts? Can these labels *nothing/something or fullness/emptiness* be seen while looking at others?

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

Yes suprising seeing that the there is no self anywhere, and recognizing that in my own experience sped to the experience of "others".

It is possible that my description was a bit unclear. What I observed felt neither negative nor depressive, just an observation without any label or judgment on it. At the same time, I can see that these are also thoughts. What was observed was more like I was watching a movie with bodies moving in a scene. It was an experience of flatness, like in 2D.

There is nothing in my closer examination that says the experience I am having is true.

Looking at others of course I cannot say or know what animates their aliveness (nor mine). I cannot see what is the cause of life’s happenings. It is happening.

How could you know there is nothing inside the body making things happen? Or how could you know if there is something inside the body making things happen? As I cannot find a self, there is no self in and therefore the “I”/self cannot know anything.

The self cannot know as it doesn’t exist. There is no self that can make anything happen. When looking into the body what I observe are thoughts and labels, feelings, sensations that are interpreted by the mind as the me.
I cannot find anything other than sensations in the body, not even sure they are in the body. (When closing the eyes I am not sure there is a body)

There is a sensation of… something, I don't know what to call it. Even this is a thought. Sensation is happening. I cannot see that anything is the owner of it.
There seems to be nothing else revealing itself in my investigation. Everything else are labels, beliefs, learned stuff, identification with feelings, causes of happenings, thoughts, stories. This all is an illusion and when it's not there I cannot see anything inside the body making things happen. By my own investigation I would say I know.

Is there a way, other than believing what we have been taught?
Yes. Through direct investigation in the present moment.
What is actually here now in my own experience. That which is not made up by the mind, the thoughts, memorie, knowledge that we are taught etc.

For me it seems like unlearning everything I believe to be true, all I learned and what I think I know. Or rather it is to shift focus from believing in that and seeing what is actually here. To question everything that I’ve taken to be true and existing without looking into it myself.

Can you find a good reason to believe the labeling about what is being seen? No

Does the labeling equal facts? No

Can these labels *nothing/something or fullness/emptiness* be seen while looking at others? No.
These labels are thoughts and not real, what I am using them for is to describe something that cannot be put into words.

With gratitude
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

Thank you for your answers. There is a lot of clarity in them!

Let's move to other questions, to see what comes up.

If I say:

I know there is a self because:

I'm the thinker of these thoughts.

I have all these memories about me.

I have control over my thoughts.

What would you say?

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

If I were to give pointings or guidance to another person, is that what you mean? Otherwise please re-direct me.

I would ask you;
Where are you that are thinking these thoughts? Can you find this me? Is there anything in your immediate experience, in this present moment that you can say is you?
…Are you your body?
….Are you your thoughts?

Where is this “me”?
Can you find this me? What does this self consist of?
Are you all the thoughts you have about yourself? Is it you?
If you remove all the memories, names, thoughts, beliefs about what you are or are not, remove all labels of identity, what is left. Are you your identity?

How can you know that you are the one thinking the thoughts? Can you see anything that is thinking the thoughts? Look here and now. If you cannot find anything what does that mean? Is there any entity called you thinking the thoughts? Or are thoughts just happening?

Are the thoughts something that you create or do they come by themselves without you controlling them, what is your direct experience if you investigate this here and now?

If you sit down and let everything be as it is, can you tell if you are creating your thoughts, or do the thoughts seem to have a life of their own, arise by themself, and then fade away by themself?

Do you believe in your thoughts? Has it happened that they are not telling the truth? Have you had thoughts that you don't know where they come from? Or that you had thoughts that repeat themselves without you being able to stop them?
How do you know that you are the one thinking the thoughts and that they don't just appear?

Can you investigate if it is the case that you really can control your thoughts? Are you able to choose your thoughts?
If you can choose your thoughts, why don't you choose to always have nice caring good thoughts?

Have you ever had thoughts that make you feel bad? If you can control and then also choose, why then arise thoughts of the kind that you would rather avoid or not have? Could it be that you have no control over thoughts that arise?

Can we look a little closer at what you think a memory is, is a memory something other than a thought that arises and which you judge to be from something that happened earlier in your life, a past experience? What is the difference between a thought and a memory?
Is there a self that has all these memories of you? Can you find this me who has the memories? Where is that I?

You say you have all these memories of yourself. Is there any proof whatsoever that this is so, that these memories are true and that it is in you?
Have a look and see if this is your experience.

Can you see that these memories are nothing more than thoughts about something that you believe happened earlier in your life?
Is there any proof whatsoever that your memories exist? - Look here and now, what is here and now and look beyond what comes up as thoughts about what happened. Thoughts are illusions that do not have a truth but are a story that you choose to believe in.

If you peel away everything else that is not here and now and in your direct own experience, the only thing that you can know with truth exists - then what becomes of the memories that you have of yourself? Could they really be true?

With love
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

If I were to give pointings or guidance to another person, is that what you mean? Otherwise please re-direct me.

You did great. Those are wonderful questions. There seems to be a lot of clarity in them.

Do you have any doubts that a real self doesn't exist?

Did anything change in your daily life, since you have started this inquiry?

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

No more doubts around if there is a self or not. It is seen clearly.
Thank you for showing me.

Everything that I have identified as myself has been built on assumptions of various kinds that have not been clearly examined and questioned, taken for granted without examining and seeing for myself. Although I previously thought I looked carefully, I now understand that I looked in the wrong places.

At first I couldn't really tell any differences but as time has gone by I notice that I no longer react as strongly or sometimes not at all to things happening around me. For example, I was criticized by a person today, the reaction is not as strong as before, I did not go into a defensive position as I did most of my previous life. And the impact of the conflict dissipated more quickly when I could identify that what triggered me was my own thoughts.

What I have noticed is that I have recurring moments of absolute silence of the mind. It will become totally blank. No chatter in the mind.
I have also seen that situations arise quite often in recent days when I forget what to say or what I am about to say. It becomes completely quiet in the mind and then what I had planned to say is gone.

There are really no huge differences in my daily life compared to before. However, most of the anxiety I used to feel about things has subsided.
Now it feels like what previously stressed me is much less prominent. Time is something that used to cause stress, or rather thoughts that I didn't have enough time. When thoughts no longer dictate my reality in the same way and are not believed in, the attitude and relationship to time has changed.

Something that has come up over the course of a couple of days is that I have a greater acceptance of myself and my actions, there is a greater openness and love towards what I previously took as flaws in my personality.
In some way, it seems to be connected with the fact that my surroundings are changing. Can't quite put my finger on how it's subtle. It seems that the line between me and my surroundings is blurring.
I feel more at ease more often and can sit and do "nothing" just look out or listen and be with the presence of myself.
Perhaps the wrong word… difficult to explain…I know these are all just words but what comes is a greater sense of….equanimity.

What I also noticed is that the need to control has changed. Things happen just as they do as they always have done but me thinking I have actually a say about it :)

Something that has changed significantly that I realized now that I am writing, I am not at all interested in scrolling on social media. Youtube was my favorite place where I watched everything. Everything from Nonduality videos to news features. Interest is zero now. There is no interest in seeing or hearing any of it anymore. What usually triggers me is drama in various constellations.
I observe that there is still an automatic reflex to scroll but once I do I can't continue because there is nothing interesting in it anymore. The search has stopped.

i feel a deep gratitude to the process of inquiry and a curiosity to see where it goes.
Inquiry has become a natural part of my daily life and its happening many times by itself.

With gratitude
Sari

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

You've seem to have shifted from seeking to seeing. That's wonderful! I'm so so happy for you. I really am.

Is there something that you would like to explore further? Or do you feel ready to move on, and answer LU's final questions? We can also keep talking, until things settle down for you, there is no need to rush. Let me know what you feel like doing next.

Meanwhile, how would you answer one of my favorite questions?:

How would you describe this (seeing through the illusion of a separate self) to someone who has never heard of this?

Take care,
S