What is This?

[avva]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? The ‘I’ is an illusion that we started to believe in early childhood at the encouragement of our caretakers. We think we are persons with personalities and free will. We think we make decisions. We think that we are the thinker, the speaker, and the doer. In actual fact, however, there is no self anywhere in the universe.

What are you looking for at LU? While I understand the above statements conceptually, I haven’t experienced the truth of them yet. My hope is that at LU I will be guided to the truth of what I am (not), to the truth of reality, and away from illusions.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I am expecting pointers and questions to make me contemplate the truth of reality and identity. I am also hoping for support on the way, encouragement and assistance. I would like guidance to see that there is no self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I started with Eckhart Tolle about 7 years ago. Whe I failed to remain mindful and present, I gave up. Then a year ago I started reading lots of books (A Course in Miracles, Autobiography of a Yogi, Siddharta, etc) and also watching videos on youtube. I like watching Helen Hamilton, Shar Jason, Lisa Cairns, and Angelo DiLullo. I recently found Ilona’s and LU’s videos. I have ordered the book Liberation Unleashed.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[avva]

Hi. I would like to put my thread on hold as I would like to read the books and browse the archive first. Is that all right? When I am ready to start, shall I write here?

[avva]

Hi. I downloaded the LU app yesterday and read through the whole material. I feel I am now ready for this investigation. I am eager to start.

[Bluejay]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

3. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Enjoy! :)

[avva]

Hi Henri. Yes, please. I would love you to be my guide. Lubo has just written to me saying that he can have a 30 min video chat with me. I said yes to him too. Is it okay to have them both? I am eager to start.
Please call me avva.
How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
I won’t be attached to this character’s thoughts and her suffering any more. I will be able to view her from a distance. Life will be a happier illusion.

How will you change?
I guess the sense of aliveness and awareness will stay, but the personal ‘I’ will go. That personal ‘I’ won’t be there any more. It’s all intellectual in the mind now. Everything will be in my direct experience then.

What do you want or expect to be different?
I guess nothing will be different. Life will just continue. However, my persperctive and my perception will be different. I think I will be in the present moment most of the time. I am expecting this to be only the first step in a much longer unfolding of realization.

What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?
The identification with the character won’t be there any more. What happens to the character won’t matter so much. What is missing now is the detachment.
I will look at how to use the quote function for my next email.

[Bluejay]

Hello avva!

Lubo has just written to me saying that he can have a 30 min video chat with me. I said yes to him too. Is it okay to have them both?

Of course!

That personal ‘I’ won’t be there any more. It’s all intellectual in the mind now. Everything will be in my direct experience then.

Good to note here: The 'I' thought can remain, but it's empty.

I think I will be in the present moment most of the time. I am expecting this to be only the first step in a much longer unfolding of realization.

Good to hear you have grounded expectations. Being present most of the time may not happen. It tends to clarify over time.

I will look at how to use the quote function for my next email.

Yes, please do. Thank you :)

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be crucial that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[avva]

Hi Henri
Thank you for your quick reply.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes, it is clear. Thank you.

avva

[Bluejay]

Next I have two pointers. One to do during the day, and one in a 20min'ish session.

Let me know if you have any questions on these.

#1 - Labeling

Let's start laying the groundwork with a few pointers. You may be familiar with these already, or they may feel elementary. If that's the case, just see it as an opportunity to practice being mindful.

I'd like you to try this as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line.

Also pay attention to how the mind wants to label, judge, interpret, and constantly make sense of things.

#2 - Mind Labeling

Let's now explore how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen and paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

[avva]

Hi Henri
Here are my observations.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line.

Seeing my sandwich, simply = image/colour
Thinking of eating, simply = thought
Smelling the food, simply = smell
Eating my sandwich, simply = taste
Chewing my food, simply = sensation and sound

Thinking of washing up the dishes, simply = thought
Putting hot water in the sink, simply = image/colour, sound and movement
Putting my hands in the hot water, simply = sensation, image/colour and movement
Washing the dishes with the scourer, simply = image/colour and movement, sensation
Thinking of no-self, simply = thought

Walking in the street, looking at houses, cars and people, simply = image/colour and movement
Hearing traffic noises, simply = sound
Feeling cold, simply = sensation
Memories come up, simpy = thought

#2 - Mind Labeling

I am sitting on a chair.
I am typing words on the keyboard.
I am listening to the noise of the computer.
I am looking at the screen.
I am looking at the objects on my desk.
I am thinking of what else I need to do today.
I am looking at the clock.
I am hearing traffic noise from outside.
I am walking around the room.
I am drinking some water.
I am touching objects in the room.
Feelings: knot in the stomach, nervousness, dry throat, heart beating hard, nausea.

Sitting on the chair.
Looking at the clock.
Walking.
Touching.
Feeling the objects.
Drinking some water.
Sitting and waiting.
Feelings: no knot in the stomack, lightness, peace, emptiness.

Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second seems truer.

What is here without labels?

Only direct experience. Experiencing.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They do affect the experience. The word ‘I’ adds nervousness, importance, excitement.

Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes, I did. The second was a lighter feeling, as if it didn’t matter at all. The first was gravely important somehow. It actually felt like waiting before an examination: the nervousness, the importance, the beating heart.

[Bluejay]

Walking in the street, looking at houses, cars and people, simply = image/colour and movement

Great job on the pointer. One note here: Movement is not direct experience.

Yes, I did. The second was a lighter feeling, as if it didn’t matter at all. The first was gravely important somehow. It actually felt like waiting before an examination: the nervousness, the importance, the beating heart.

Yes, exactly :)

Here's the next exploration:

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[avva]

Hi Henri

However, is an apple actually known?

No, apple is not known in direct experience. Only the typical colours, shapes, sizes, smells, textures of apples are known. The mind creates a category and for ease of communication we call it an ‘apple’. The category itself is not real.
There is no 'animal', 'human being', 'tea', 'computer', 'tree' in reality. These are all labels for categories (groups of objects the mind finds similar enough to put together).

One note here: Movement is not direct experience.

Could you please elaborate on this? It is not 100% understood here.
Thanks.

avva

[Bluejay]

Could you please elaborate on this? It is not 100% understood here.
Thanks.

It's not too important, but one way to explore: Hold your hand in front of you. Now move your hand. How do you know it moved?

No, apple is not known in direct experience. Only the typical colours, shapes, sizes, smells, textures of apples are known. The mind creates a category and for ease of communication we call it an ‘apple’. The category itself is not real.
There is no 'animal', 'human being', 'tea', 'computer', 'tree' in reality. These are all labels for categories (groups of objects the mind finds similar enough to put together).

Indeed. So let's now explore thoughts :)

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

[avva]

It's not too important, but one way to explore: Hold your hand in front of you. Now move your hand. How do you know it moved?

I have tried this. My hand was in a starting and an end position, and in lots of positions in between. Are these just picture frames the brain puts together as a motion, like a motion picture (film)? I guess it very much depends on the speed of the moving object. Is the brain's interpretation of what is perceived not part of what you call direct experience? The body's movement is perceived by the inner ear. Is that not direct experience?

About thoughts.

Where are they coming from and going to?

There are two kinds of thought: the ‘conscious’ and the ‘unconscious’. The ‘conscious’ thought is like speaking intentionally in my head. The ‘unconscious’ thought just pops into my head seemingly from nowhere. I am guessing it comes from the unconscious mind. They both disappear into nowhere.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I seem to be able to make ‘conscious’ thoughts appear. It’s like ‘Say the word ‘apple’ in your mind.’ And I say it in my mind. But is that a thought? I wonder. Or ‘Think about the house you lived in when you were a child.’ And the image appears. I can speak ‘loudly’ in my head, and I feel in control. However, I can’t control ‘unconscious’ thoughts. They just pop up into awareness. Both ‘conscious’ and ‘unconscious’ thoughts use my voice.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Yes, with the ‘conscious’ thoughts. No, with the ‘unconscious’ thoughts.

Can you predict the next thought?

No, I can’t.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

No, I can’t. I can’t prevent ‘unconscious’ thoughts happening and I can’t control them.

Do you control where attention goes?

I can, but I don’t all the time. If I want to listen to the noises outside, I can put my attention there. But often my attention wanders.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, I can’t control ‘unconscious’ thoughts. They do appear in awareness, uninvited. However, I seem to be able to stop myself following those thoughts, not going down the rabbit hole after them, as I used to.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I seem to be able to choose a ‘conscious’ thought. (see above)

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

I can’t prevent ‘unconscious’ thoughts from appearing.

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

There seem to be whole trains of thoughts, one thought connected to the previous one by association. I will investigate this further.

[Bluejay]

I have tried this. My hand was in a starting and an end position, and in lots of positions in between. Are these just picture frames the brain puts together as a motion, like a motion picture (film)? I guess it very much depends on the speed of the moving object. Is the brain's interpretation of what is perceived not part of what you call direct experience? The body's movement is perceived by the inner ear. Is that not direct experience?

What are these in direct experience:

- body
- inner ear
- brain

I'm not looking for an answer because we will explore these in pointers as well.

I can, but I don’t all the time. If I want to listen to the noises outside, I can put my attention there. But often my attention wanders.

Can you predict where attention goes before it goes there?

And notice if you say "I'm going to move my attention to my left foot" it has already moved.

There are two kinds of thought: the ‘conscious’ and the ‘unconscious’. The ‘conscious’ thought is like speaking intentionally in my head. The ‘unconscious’ thought just pops into my head seemingly from nowhere. I am guessing it comes from the unconscious mind. They both disappear into nowhere.

When you speak intentionally in your head, isn't that also coming out of nowhere?

If not, where does it come from?

What is the difference between conscious and unconscious thoughts in direct experience? (don't go into thinking, but observe)

I seem to be able to make ‘conscious’ thoughts appear. It’s like ‘Say the word ‘apple’ in your mind.’ And I say it in my mind. But is that a thought? I wonder. Or ‘Think about the house you lived in when you were a child.’ And the image appears. I can speak ‘loudly’ in my head, and I feel in control. However, I can’t control ‘unconscious’ thoughts. They just pop up into awareness. Both ‘conscious’ and ‘unconscious’ thoughts use my voice.

Pay extra attention when you say things like 'I think' or 'I seem', because more often than not, you are no longer in direct experience.

If someone says 'say the word apple' and you say it, did you decide to say it, or did it just happen?

Did you predict a thought like 'Think about the house you lived in' before it happened?

If not, how are you making it appear?

Yes, with the ‘conscious’ thoughts. No, with the ‘unconscious’ thoughts.

You said you can't predict thoughts, but here you say that you can control what thoughts appear. How are you doing that if you don't know what's coming?

And when you make a different thought appear, did you predict that movement?

However, I seem to be able to stop myself following those thoughts, not going down the rabbit hole after them, as I used to.

This stopping, can you predict it before it happens?

Are you 100% successful in stopping yourself from going down a rabbit hole?

[avva]

Hi Henri

Good questions! Here are my answers.

Can you predict where attention goes before it goes there?

No, I can’t.

And notice if you say "I'm going to move my attention to my left foot" it has already moved.

Right.

When you speak intentionally in your head, isn't that also coming out of nowhere?

Yes, it is coming out of nowhere.

What is the difference between conscious and unconscious thoughts in direct experience? (don't go into thinking, but observe)

Attention gets entangled in unconscious thoughts more easily. When a conscious thought comes, there is another thought that is saying: ‘I am thinking.’ When unconscious thoughts come, there is a thought afterwards that says: ‘I was thinking.’

If someone says 'say the word apple' and you say it, did you decide to say it, or did it just happen?

There's a thought beforehand saying: 'I am going to say 'apple'.' There is an 'I' in thought that claims ownership.

Did you predict a thought like 'Think about the house you lived in' before it happened?

No.

You said you can't predict thoughts, but here you say that you can control what thoughts appear. How are you doing that if you don't know what's coming?

There is a thought beforehand saying: ‘I am going to think of…’ and then I do.

And when you make a different thought appear, did you predict that movement?

No.

This stopping, can you predict it before it happens?

No.

Are you 100% successful in stopping yourself from going down a rabbit hole?

I am more successful then I used to be, but not 100%.