Thank You already

[Elad]

Thank You Elad,

Thank you for you patience. Feels a little like I am going in a circle here and being a bit confused.

Yes past and future are just thoughts for sure, and there can not have been a separate self in a thought. Some sadness appeared and a feeling of me being sad but that is a thought. In everyday experience sight, sound and sensations are cleary no self there, but falling into believing "I" when feelings come is more "sticky" and easy to get believing in the "me being sad" instead of just sadness appearing. It feels like I almost "get" it but some doubt thoughts comes still up and thoughts like "how can I be sure/ how can I trust my experience of seeing.And how to avoid forgetting after this guidance with you. How to remind "me" of this?

Yes the analogy with the keys is good but not really sure if it is clear for me that feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or not are different. I get that feeling and seeing is different. I think it is just that I do not trust that I truly have seen clearly enough and the doubt thoughts are believed.

I resonate with what you wrote;"attending to moment to moment emergence and change of experience, the senses and movement of thought as minutely as possible". That sentence feels like medicin of remembrance/reminder of what is true. To do that when lost, when temporarily believing in the me happens.


"Look at simple direct normal experince. Is there a separate self anywhere? Is ther a controller or doer anywhere? What do you see?"
It appears likea thought appears and things get done. Like today I vacuumcleaned the house after a thought pop up to do so. It is just a bit unclear that it is so and no doer/entity. There is some struggle with this. What else do I need to see or do or is it just trusting and to accept that it is going to take time.

I did the natural meditation, thank you for sharing that with me!

We have all the time you want, no hurry 🤍 The way it seems here it's always possible to doubt when attention is lost in the content of thoughts and feelings, kinda like you can have all kinds of dreams at night. The point is to get very clear that every time you pay full attention to what is real now, rather then being lost in the contents of thoughts and feelings, it's seen that the self and all its concerns, is just a mental activity, like a dream, without any real self without independent free will in it. Please check this many times . Worry to lose awakening is inherently a state of being lost in identification with thought content. No guarantee it won't happen for me or you, in fact it's very normal it does, our work here is not to guarantee against it, but that you gain very clear direct experience that in the same moment when you are NOT lost in the content of thoughts and feelings, but rather are attentive and letting everything be, you see that whatever content was believed was only like a dream in thought, without independent free will or an independent separate self.

[Elad]

Also, when finish this process, I and LU will invite you into groups where you can get support from others who have seen. And I'm happy to stay in touch and you can talk to me when it feels needed.

[Pohjantahti]

Thank you.♡♡♡
So true and helpfull with your response.

"The point is to get very clear that every time you pay full attention to what is real now, rather then being lost in the contents of thoughts and feelings, it's seen that the self and all its concerns, is just a mental activity, like a dream, without any real self without independent free will in it. Please check this many times" I will and also do the exercises again and read all that is written here....

I do want to continue a bit more and so good to know about the support groups afterwards. For now there is much love and appreciation for you truly beautifull guidance!

[Elad]

Thank you.♡♡♡
So true and helpfull with your response.

"The point is to get very clear that every time you pay full attention to what is real now, rather then being lost in the contents of thoughts and feelings, it's seen that the self and all its concerns, is just a mental activity, like a dream, without any real self without independent free will in it. Please check this many times" I will and also do the exercises again and read all that is written here....

I do want to continue a bit more and so good to know about the support groups afterwards. For now there is much love and appreciation for you truly beautifull guidance!

🤍🙏🤍

Take a little time with this, do some natural meditation if you feel like it, then write me.

[Pohjantahti]

Hello again,
There has been lot of getting stuck in thoughts and strong emotions here today. Been harder to stay with what is real here now(sight, sound., sensation.....)the thoghts and emotions being there together with the thoughts and emotions and "uncomfortable" sensation in the body.. Mediation has helped to settle the stuckness. What do you think I should continue with? Is it good to sit with "heavy/negative" emotions? Should I continue writing to you every day or mire seldom? The doubt thoughts arose "that maybe I am not able to see directly" I really want to see and be clear about it. Thank you for being there!

[Elad]

Hello again,
There has been lot of getting stuck in thoughts and strong emotions here today. Been harder to stay with what is real here now(sight, sound., sensation.....)the thoghts and emotions being there together with the thoughts and emotions and "uncomfortable" sensation in the body.. Mediation has helped to settle the stuckness. What do you think I should continue with? Is it good to sit with "heavy/negative" emotions? Should I continue writing to you every day or mire seldom? The doubt thoughts arose "that maybe I am not able to see directly" I really want to see and be clear about it. Thank you for being there!

Okay, the sense here is you have had several glimpses. You just believe doubt and get lost in thoughts much of the time. So if that sounds reasonable to you let's work with that.

1) sit every day for at least 2 periods of 20 minutes seeing the movement of sensation and thought ignoring their content. Let that make it clearer how the sense of self is thought based. Our aim is not for the sense of self to disappear, just to see that it only exist when believing in thought.

2) See that sensations do not mean any inherent feeling. Just like sensations don't declare that they are self, they do not declare a feeling. This comes from thought. Look to see this repeatedly.

3) What is the secondary gain of doubt and being lost in thought? Fantasy of absolute safety in the future? Fantasy of a better life/self in the future? What do you need to face and feel when you let go of those gains? The life keeps moving between pleasentness and discomfort and I stability? That there is no thing to hold on to and be safe through in a permanent way? Something else? Accept all feelings and sensations lovingly.

Work with this and tell me what is seen. Let's keep this daily.

[Elad]

Hello again,
There has been lot of getting stuck in thoughts and strong emotions here today. Been harder to stay with what is real here now(sight, sound., sensation.....)the thoghts and emotions being there together with the thoughts and emotions and "uncomfortable" sensation in the body.. Mediation has helped to settle the stuckness. What do you think I should continue with? Is it good to sit with "heavy/negative" emotions? Should I continue writing to you every day or mire seldom? The doubt thoughts arose "that maybe I am not able to see directly" I really want to see and be clear about it. Thank you for being there!

Okay, the sense here is you have had several glimpses. You just believe doubt and get lost in thoughts much of the time. So if that sounds reasonable to you let's work with that.

1) sit every day for at least 2 periods of 20 minutes seeing the movement of sensation and thought ignoring their content. Let that make it clearer how the sense of self is thought based. Our aim is not for the sense of self to disappear, just to see that it only exist when believing in thought.

2) See that sensations do not mean any inherent feeling. Just like sensations don't declare that they are self, they do not declare a feeling. This comes from thought. Look to see this repeatedly.

3) What is the secondary gain of doubt and being lost in thought? Fantasy of absolute safety in the future? Fantasy of a better life/self in the future? What do you need to face and feel when you let go of those gains? The life keeps moving between pleasentness and discomfort and I stability? That there is no thing to hold on to and be safe through in a permanent way? Something else? Accept all feelings and sensations lovingly.

Work with this and tell me what is seen. Let's keep this daily.

I stability -> instability

[Pohjantahti]

Yes that feels exactly right,, with glimpses and getting lost in thoughts. And yes i want to work with this. Thank you. "Talk" to you tomorrow again.

[Pohjantahti]

"1) sit every day for at least 2 periods of 20 minutes seeing the movement of sensation and thought ignoring their content. Let that make it clearer how the sense of self is thought based. Our aim is not for the sense of self to disappear, just to see that it only exist when believing in thought."

When thoughts arise it feels like a contraction and seems like the I comes up at that moment also. When becoming aware of the thought it stops.
When no thoughts just openness and spaciousness for a while till next thought comes up.
Some thoughts are not cleat but seems to be there behind a feeling.
I catch a thought when it is there already and see it. I do not know how-to observe without getting involved in the content. I try to explain here what happens. It is like the thought comes and when it is seen, it is already been believed for a short time by the "I thought" when noticed. Is this getting lost in content (even if just for a short moment)? If so how to do it?

Also saw a feeling be attached to a worry thought or together with the thought. Yes feelings come from thought.

"2) See that sensations do not mean any inherent feeling. Just like sensations don't declare that they are self, they do not declare a feeling. This comes from thought. Look to see this repeatedly."

Sensations are felt sometimes in one place longer time(like where the stronger sensations of a headache was). And thought puts a labels/feelings on them sometimes. I see that sensations does not have a feeling in them or are not self, just sensations. It is the thought or believed old pattern of connecting a certain sensation to a thought/feeling.


"3) What is the secondary gain of doubt and being lost in thought? Fantasy of absolute safety in the future? Fantasy of a better life/self in the future? What do you need to face and feel when you let go of those gains? The life keeps moving between pleasentness and discomfort and I stability? That there is no thing to hold on to and be safe through in a permanent way? Something else? Accept all feelings and sensations lovingly"

This I unclear at the moment. There is fear hear though Maybe fear of loosing believed safety....( In my storey there is issues of unsafety and abandonment so could be that) also my lifesituation right now is very unsure and without a known direction or security. That probably affects also how what we do here. I hope to get to feel this one since it feels important...May be it will be revealed....
How do I get the quotes to be coloured here so it becomes easier for us to see what you wrote and my answers.

[Elad]

Okay you are working, all good.

You have been through most of the particular exercises to address particular misunderstandings. From here it's mainly more of the same: attention, attiontion, attiontion. Staying on the question: Is there a separate self here??? Until it's clear beyond doubt. The main thing you can do from here is dedicate all your free time to this - practice to a degree that matches how much you care about this. Don't focus on evaluating yourself positively or negatively. It will happen but just ignore it, it's useless. Just return to focus on LOOKING on the one point: Is there a separate self here? Is whatever I am experiencing a separate self? Don't dwell on thoughts and analysis. It wont help. Only to look at the question and bring attention to natural unfoldment. Are any parts of it a separate self? Again, let your consistent returning of attention to look at this match how much you care about this.

Of course take care of practical, relational, emotional and health life as needed and possible. Beside that: Let your activitiy match your degree of care about this.

Let's stay in touch every day until you get through the gate clearly.

[Elad]

Okay you are working, all good.

You have been through most of the particular exercises to address particular misunderstandings. From here it's mainly more of the same: attention, attiontion, attiontion. Staying on the question: Is there a separate self here??? Until it's clear beyond doubt. The main thing you can do from here is dedicate all your free time to this - practice to a degree that matches how much you care about this. Don't focus on evaluating yourself positively or negatively. It will happen but just ignore it, it's useless. Just return to focus on LOOKING on the one point: Is there a separate self here? Is whatever I am experiencing a separate self? Don't dwell on thoughts and analysis. It wont help. Only to look at the question and bring attention to natural unfoldment. Are any parts of it a separate self? Again, let your consistent returning of attention to look at this match how much you care about this.

Of course take care of practical, relational, emotional and health life as needed and possible. Beside that: Let your activitiy match your degree of care about this.

Let's stay in touch every day until you get through the gate clearly.

Ps. You can find a video on the quote function somewhere on the forum. Also you can find for free the book gateless gatecrashers. If you didn't read it yet, might be helpful.

[Pohjantahti]

Hello my friend,
Here comes what is going on here. Today I did a natural meditation with natural sounds and there was this kind of a heavy knot in mthe lower belly area. I welcomed it, ni labeling just a sensation and at the same time a lit of just beingness and some smiling coming up ehn thoughts appeared and they subsided. There were stillness, spaciousness and fast beingness. It felt like a warm light gave over me and the knots intensity went down. Tears came out these eyes of gratitude. I know that this was just an experience and those come and go, but it was beautifully healing and peaceful and soothing to just be.

Then I went for a walk and the knot was still there a bit but it was perfectly OK for it to just be and there was lightness and sight, sounds, sensations and the sounds of the cars that often makes the thoughts judging the sound was not there. It was like the sounds of the cars was almost as sweet as the sound of natural water or wind...

Stuckness in thoughts happens still but less and the recognition of them being there happens faster and it is a bit easier to get unstuck and see them for thet are. Even some smiling at them happens today.

What I see clearly now is that there is no separate self when there is presence, beingness, attention on here and now. Some experinces of this and the tension, striving and struggle is gone and no doer, controller or I there to be found. Just openness and relief. The I only appears when the thoughts come up and they do. Thoughts label experience and claims that a sensation is what it says it is and that is false. Untill now there has been a believed that what thoughts say about a more difficult sensation is true, now I see it clearly as just a belief that is seen to be false.
Such gratitude for those clear moments of just being, letting life live itself.
I see that whatever I experince is not a separate self. will continue working on this but wanted to share. I am very gratefull for you being there till it is as clear as it can be.

[Elad]

Lovely,, beautiful. Now please investigate:

"What I see clearly now is that there is no separate self when there is presence, beingness, attention on here and now. Some experinces of this and the tension, striving and struggle is gone and no doer, controller or I there to be found. Just openness and relief. The I only appears when the thoughts come up and they do. Thoughts label experience and claims that a sensation is what it says it is and that is false. Untill now there has been a believed that what thoughts say about a more difficult sensation is true, now I see it clearly as just a belief that is seen to be false."

Is it that there is no separate self/doer when attention and presence is there OR is it that there is never a separate self/doer, and it's just that when you are not present, you are lost in an illusion that is never true?

Does santa claus not exist as a real person only when you are mindful of it that he doesn't exist as a real person? Or he doesn't exist as a real person even if you are lost in a great movie about santa claus?

[Pohjantahti]

Yes, that is absolutely true that the self is never there. When I am present, that is true and real so that I trust. A true self can not be real in one moment and suddenly not in another moment. Nothing real disappears. Beingness is always there, real never ending, even behind/beyond lostness in believing in an illusory self that is just ficton nonexistent thought. Just when I am not present I am lost in the illusion of a self. Smiling here when I read your comment.

[Elad]

Yes, that is absolutely true that the self is never there. When I am present, that is true and real so that I trust. A true self can not be real in one moment and suddenly not in another moment. Nothing real disappears. Beingness is always there, real never ending, even behind/beyond lostness in believing in an illusory self that is just ficton nonexistent thought. Just when I am not present I am lost in the illusion of a self. Smiling here when I read your comment.

Good! So the seeing seems to be there -

If you dont believe in labels to be more then labels, looking into direct experience:

- Is there a separate self or doer in any shape or form?
- Is there any doubt about it?
- Is anything missing?

Don't answer before your answers seem like the clearest thing in the world. Be a light onto yourself.