Living without a centre

[ZenKen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is there there is not an essential reference point. The term "me" or "I" is not referring to anything that can be seen, touched or experienced in any real way. The self appears to be a construct which when explored is seen to be illusory.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see clearly that there is not an inherent self centre to my experience. That life isnt happening TO ME. I would like to be guided to see this for myself. I have a decent intellectual understanding but wish move toward it being experiential. I am looking to be in the hands of somebody who has clarity and has "walked the path."

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be challenged. I expect to be asked to look into my experience and to report back what is being experienced. I expect to be asked to be brutally honest and not get caught up intellectuality or philosophically in any way. I anticipate being asked to explore my experience in ways i have previously not encountered.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I practised Buddhism for 20 years and have been exploring non duality fairly seriously now for 2/3 years. I have sat with a few teachers but not had the one to one intensive guidance that I think I am ready for. I realise these responses are brief but I tend not to be very wordy. I hope this is ok.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hi ZenKen
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, thank you for offering to guide me, I would very much like you to be my guide. I accept the conditions. I live in the Uk so in London time zone. I often travel with work but happy to drop in every day even if its to ask for a little more time to inquire. I look forward to your instructions. Thank you very much, Ken

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, thank you for offering to guide me, I would very much like you to be my guide. I accept the conditions. I live in the Uk so in London time zone. I often travel with work but happy to drop in every day even if its to ask for a little more time to inquire. I look forward to your instructions. Thank you very much, Ken

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I live in the Uk so in London time zone

I'm GMT+2. Perfect!

I often travel with work but happy to drop in every day even if its to ask for a little more time to inquire. I look forward to your instructions.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, yes I am subscribed.

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Life won’t be all about ME and what I want and what I don’t want. Perhaps more lightness around taking things personally and being defensive.
Less self inflicted mental suffering which I see more and more is only caused by self centred thinking. Hopefully a little less reactivity and more gentleness and forgiveness for others.

Whilst I say all this I don’t really care. I just seem to be obsessed with seeing the truth of who the hell I am and what life really is.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

A little more ease in Life. I do assume that seeing this is only a step but a big step to a deeper understanding of life.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Well I wouldn’t like to go the rest of my life not seeing the truth of this. Nothing else matters much compared to seeing this. I love my wife and my dog, the wider family and friends, but without this it’s empty.

4. What are you hoping for?

To disappear… and to see the world more as it is rather than from the ridiculous self centred stance.

5. What is missing?

It's more like there is something blocking the view....

Love
Rali

Thank you Rali, much appreciated...Ken

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Hello Rali, yes that is ok. Please see my responses below. I have kept my replies short and sweet. I just looked and reported back. Do let me know if this is ok. Just to say thank you for doing this...its priceless. Love to you. Ken

Now… If you look for the I, what is there?

A sense, which is so very subtle and vague but so very concrete at the same time. It’s like there is a centre with nothing at the centre…an idea!

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

I believe it… but from my experience…there was a contraction of a little “anxiety” in the belly. Also A feeling of relief. A little later there was frustration because i so "know this."

Where exactly did you look?

I was drawn mainly to the head. That is where the ME appears to be. I can see the sensations labelled “hands” are not ME and other parts of the body, but something feels more like ME in the area labelled “head”

What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

An awareness of looking. It seems the awareness was still but attention was moving and looking. Sensations of the head are of different intensities.
I found a very subtle thought/sensation which appears to be ME but when looked for it seems to change location.


Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken

Just to say thank you for doing this...its priceless.

It’s really my pleasure!

Thank you for your honest reply. It gives me an idea where you “feel the self” the strongest so we can start from there.
Before we begin let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing/Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, this is good stuff. I have a full day retreat and evening but will explore this tomorrow. Please give me a little more time...love to you Ken...

[poppyseed]

No problem, Ken! Thanks for letting me know! Enjoy your retreat!
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, please see my responses below. This was very interesting Ic think I am getting it and relating to looking for no-self but I await your guidance. 🙏

T

hank you for your honest reply. It gives me an idea where you “feel the self” the strongest so we can start from there.
Before we begin let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target.

Yes Rali, I get this. The inquiry is a kind of silent “feely” looking. I may begin inquiry with a question but then go silent and look and feel.

Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Good very simple and Yes I agree.

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing/Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes Rali, I think am clear about this.

Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Ok, so the thought “red” is not red. The thought “sweet” is not sweet. Am I correct? Thoughts are just pointers?

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I think I get it. So the thought/word “apple” is a convenient label for us to share, a construct. In DE only that which is experienced by the senses is real…So if we bite into the apple and we say/think its “juicy” that juicy-ness is not experience via thought. But only taste is experienced by tasting, the label is the add-on ?

Wonderful stuff, thank you, love yo you. Ken

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken

Ok, so the thought “red” is not red. The thought “sweet” is not sweet. Am I correct? Thoughts are just pointers?

I think I get it. So the thought/word “apple” is a convenient label for us to share, a construct. In DE only that which is experienced by the senses is real…So if we bite into the apple and we say/think its “juicy” that juicy-ness is not experience via thought. But only taste is experienced by tasting, the label is the add-on ?

Yes!! Very good! “Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Thank you Rali, will get back to you tomorrow..🙏

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, thank you for this. See my responses below.

Yes!! Very good! “Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Yes Very.

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

Hearing kettle boil, simply = sound (hearing)
Seeing fire, simply = colour/image (seeing)
Feeling cup on lip, simply= sensation (feeling)
Tasting the Tea, simply = taste (tasting)
Feeling the se sensation of walking in Mud, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the sound of walking in mud, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about walking in mud, simply = thought (thinking)
Feeling cold on skin, simply = sensation (feeling)
Feeling contact with chair, simply = sensation (feeling)
Smelling wet doggy, simply, smell = (smelling)

This was fun to do. Just getting to the base of experiencing. It did occur to me that all the senses though all very different could come under sensation - sensing in a strange kind of way.

Love to you Rali...🙏