Diving into direct experience

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Jairi7
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Jairi7 » Thu Nov 09, 2023 2:14 pm

Hi Henri,
Meaning, if you look at a pen, does a 'pen' exist, or is it just ink, plastic, etc? (even the parts are empty of self-nature or essence)
So when I look at a pen, only the image of the pen exists. There is no physical pen that remains in existence when I look the other way. Then only thoughts about the location/density etc. of the pen remain. I used to think that there were physical objects in the world that had certain characteristics (an image, a location, a feeling, a smell, a sound etc.). However, while the characteristics appear (like the image of the pen sometimes appears), the physical object behind the characteristics never appears.
The metaphor about the mathematical zero really spoke to me as I studied Mathematics and Statistics in college hahahah. On a more serious note, empty of independent existence is a perfect explanation! There are no 'things' that exist beyond their characteristics.
Only thing you may want to look at are the origins and connections. Instead of tracing back a thought to a sensation, for example, notice where the thought is coming from. So asking Who thinks this thought? Who am I?
So, notice where the thought itself is coming from instead of where the content of the thought is coming from?
Trust your intuition on this though. If you resonate with what you're doing, keep doing that, and I'll do my best to help.


Thanks :)
I offer the above suggestion since you mentioned confusion, and the confusion may simply be because there's not always a connection. In fact, at some point you may start feeling like sensations and thoughts are not connected.
I did notice this, sometimes it seems like there is no connection between thoughts and sensations. There seems to be no rational explanation for why this happens, which made it a little bit scary at first. However, it truly does not matter because the sensations that often follow such thoughts are also just simply sensations.

~Jaïr
Als zelfs vlinders moeten sterven laat ik niet mijn vreugd bederven
Ik kan zonder vliegen leven wat zou ik nog langer geven
Om een vlinder die verdronken is in mij.
Om te leven hoef ik echt geen vlinder meer te zijn.
~Lennaert Nijgh

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Bluejay
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Bluejay » Thu Nov 09, 2023 2:30 pm

The metaphor about the mathematical zero really spoke to me as I studied Mathematics and Statistics in college hahahah.
Oh, that's cool :)
On a more serious note, empty of independent existence is a perfect explanation! There are no 'things' that exist beyond their characteristics.
Yes, there is no pen essence, no tree essence, just causes and conditions coming together. The same is true for the separate self.
So, notice where the thought itself is coming from instead of where the content of the thought is coming from?
Yes, I think so. There's no need to get caught up in the content, just look at the senses themselves and where they come from. What is the source? Who/what am I?
I did notice this, sometimes it seems like there is no connection between thoughts and sensations. There seems to be no rational explanation for why this happens, which made it a little bit scary at first. However, it truly does not matter because the sensations that often follow such thoughts are also just simply sensations.
Exactly! The scariness is the next thing to inquire into. It's excellent that you're noticing these hooks.

Also, do you notice that there's a certain intuition coming online, almost doing this process?

You may feel drawn to watch a video, which may introduce a question, which then is automatically picked up by your system and it inquires into itself.

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Jairi7
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Jairi7 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:29 pm

Hi Henri,
Yes, I think so. There's no need to get caught up in the content, just look at the senses themselves and where they come from. What is the source? Who/what am I?
Maybe, I'm looking in the wrong direction, but I can not find where the senses/thoughts come from. Every time there is a thought it just comes out of nowhere it seems. Each attempt to find a source just leads to more thoughts which contain images of what the source might look like (black, very large, filled with nothing). However, this is obviously not the source, but just some imagination.

I don't know, on the one hand it seems that sensations and thoughts appear, but they seem to have no physical existence. Yet they still appear. It is very paradoxical and when writing this there are all kinds of thoughts popping up containing some kind of explanation. But the thoughts themselves suffer from the same issue as the other sensations and thoughts.

Also, all the looking is currently happening in the 'realm of experience' (for lack of a better term) or in other words the looking is in the 'space' of sensations and thoughts. Experience is clearly not me, so it would be weird to expect to find the 'source' anywhere inside experience?
Exactly! The scariness is the next thing to inquire into. It's excellent that you're noticing these hooks.
Also, do you notice that there's a certain intuition coming online, almost doing this process?
You may feel drawn to watch a video, which may introduce a question, which then is automatically picked up by your system and it inquires into itself.
I definitely notice this intuition. Sometimes during the day there is little to no drive to look into this and other times there is a lot of drive to look. It used to be that I did not really feel like looking, but then think: 'Oh no, I have to look otherwise I will never get there', at which point I would force myself to look, which obviously was very useful. It is starting to become more and more that I look whenever there is the drive to look, because these are almost always the times that the looking actually leads to some kind of insight. And also, the looking is more and more disconnected from 'me'. As in, 'I' am not the one doing the looking if that makes any sense, it just kinda happens on its own.

Funny you mention the video watching by the way, I hadn't watched any video's around awakening and that kind of stuff in weeks. And then suddenly a video popped up on my timeline, I felt inclined to watch it and within 2 minutes there was that huge insight that thoughts are just reflections of what is happening in the body.

As a side note, I had a surprise job interview yesterday and when going there I was crazy nervous. There was a storm of intense body sensations and many many many thoughts (many like: 'I want to get out of here, I want this to be over, I wanna go home'). But strangely enough, even though I was very scared, the desire for the thoughts/feeling to go away was not as strong as I expected it to be. I just sat there in the train, terrified, for an hour and then walked into the office, still terrified, did the interview, walked out of the office relieved, sat in the train relieved and got home. Only at some points (maybe 10-15 times) did it seem like there was a 'me' in big danger. And these moments generally only lasted for a little bit. The rest of the time, there was just this swirling storm of anxiety and thoughts and nothing more. While writing this there was also this thought: 'I want to go do another interview and feel this anxiety again', which is very surprising to be honest.

~Jaïr
Als zelfs vlinders moeten sterven laat ik niet mijn vreugd bederven
Ik kan zonder vliegen leven wat zou ik nog langer geven
Om een vlinder die verdronken is in mij.
Om te leven hoef ik echt geen vlinder meer te zijn.
~Lennaert Nijgh

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Bluejay
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Bluejay » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:44 pm

Also, all the looking is currently happening in the 'realm of experience' (for lack of a better term) or in other words the looking is in the 'space' of sensations and thoughts. Experience is clearly not me, so it would be weird to expect to find the 'source' anywhere inside experience?
Exactly. So then, what are you? :)

No answers to be found in thought, or in experience.

Also, looking in the wrong direction is not wrong. Sometimes you need to look everywhere. Nothing is wasted in this inquiry, if that makes sense.
And also, the looking is more and more disconnected from 'me'. As in, 'I' am not the one doing the looking if that makes any sense, it just kinda happens on its own.
Makes complete sense. This is how it is for me.
Funny you mention the video watching by the way, I hadn't watched any video's around awakening and that kind of stuff in weeks. And then suddenly a video popped up on my timeline, I felt inclined to watch it and within 2 minutes there was that huge insight that thoughts are just reflections of what is happening in the body.
🥳

And reflections of other thoughts (knowledge, information, etc).
And these moments generally only lasted for a little bit. The rest of the time, there was just this swirling storm of anxiety and thoughts and nothing more. While writing this there was also this thought: 'I want to go do another interview and feel this anxiety again', which is very surprising to be honest.
This is also excellent. There has been an experiential realization that feeling is not dangerous, which will eventually lead to insights, peace, and freedom, because instead of distracting into thoughts/story, you stay with the feelings completely. This is shadow work happening by itself.
I definitely notice this intuition. Sometimes during the day there is little to no drive to look into this and other times there is a lot of drive to look. It used to be that I did not really feel like looking, but then think: 'Oh no, I have to look otherwise I will never get there', at which point I would force myself to look, which obviously was very useful.
It sounds like you're starting to reach a place where this process is taking on a life of its own, and it is becoming your lived experience. It's like a snowball rolling down the hill, growing, becoming unstoppable.

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Jairi7
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Jairi7 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:48 pm

Hi Henri,

I just remembered something that I wanted to add. Some weeks ago I started to notice that I was very afraid to let go of being in control because I was afraid that I would not finish the stuff that I was supposed to do (my time management skills are very poor hahaha). For example, when doing my thesis there were these constant thoughts like: 'I have to do this and this now', followed by: 'No, I don't have to do anything right now', etc, accompanied by this huge feeling of anxiety. When such thoughts came up I believed them and it seemed like I had to make my body do the work.

Recently, I had to finish something and the same thoughts and anxiety came up and the work that had to be done was pushed further and further towards the deadline in a similar way to what used to happen before. But, the weird thing was that it didn't seem like I had to push my body to do the work. It was more like just waiting for the anxiety to get severe enough so that it would push my body to do the work. Every day, I would procrastinate and it would feel like: 'Hmm apparently the anxiety is still not enough to move my body into action'.

~ Jaïr
Als zelfs vlinders moeten sterven laat ik niet mijn vreugd bederven
Ik kan zonder vliegen leven wat zou ik nog langer geven
Om een vlinder die verdronken is in mij.
Om te leven hoef ik echt geen vlinder meer te zijn.
~Lennaert Nijgh

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Bluejay
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Bluejay » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:59 pm

Recently, I had to finish something and the same thoughts and anxiety came up and the work that had to be done was pushed further and further towards the deadline in a similar way to what used to happen before. But, the weird thing was that it didn't seem like I had to push my body to do the work. It was more like just waiting for the anxiety to get severe enough so that it would push my body to do the work. Every day, I would procrastinate and it would feel like: 'Hmm apparently the anxiety is still not enough to move my body into action'.
That's funny. A good example of these things happen by themselves. Conditions and causes coming together.

If it resonates, you could explore the anxiety, but from your previous post it sounds like you're already doing it. So when you feel like you have to do something, notice the thoughts are distracting from the feeling in the body, so just go directly to the body and feel it.

It may also be helpful to imagine the worst case scenario. Let's say you lose control completely. What will happen? And then, what will you have to feel? What are the feeling(s) that come up?

Feel the feelings, and then notice if they remind you of something from the past where there was this pressure.

Then just feel everything.

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Jairi7
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Jairi7 » Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:30 am

Hi Henri,
Exactly. So then, what are you? :)
Every answer that comes up are thoughts (like: 'That means I'm nothing', 'Oh no, that answer is based on thought', 'I don't know', 'oh wait that answer is also based on thought') accompanied by body sensations.
And reflections of other thoughts (knowledge, information, etc).
Oh yeah hahaha, also reflections of other thoughts.
This is also excellent. There has been an experiential realization that feeling is not dangerous, which will eventually lead to insights, peace, and freedom, because instead of distracting into thoughts/story, you stay with the feelings completely. This is shadow work happening by itself.
Yes, I honestly am quite mindboggled. I remember some months ago watching a video of someone who said that she did not mind being scared at all and I just couldn't imagine how that would be possible. It seems very possible now.
If it resonates, you could explore the anxiety, but from your previous post it sounds like you're already doing it. So when you feel like you have to do something, notice the thoughts are distracting from the feeling in the body, so just go directly to the body and feel it.
Yes I am, there are often thoughts like: 'Oh feeling the sensations doesn't do anything', 'Why am I wasting my time'. These seem like the last layer of defense, because when the thoughts are traced back there is nothing left to resist the feeling.
It may also be helpful to imagine the worst case scenario. Let's say you lose control completely. What will happen? And then, what will you have to feel? What are the feeling(s) that come up?
Yes! This has been a tremendous help. Surprisingly, just imagining the worst case scenario often brings along both the body sensations and the thoughts.

~Jaïr
Als zelfs vlinders moeten sterven laat ik niet mijn vreugd bederven
Ik kan zonder vliegen leven wat zou ik nog langer geven
Om een vlinder die verdronken is in mij.
Om te leven hoef ik echt geen vlinder meer te zijn.
~Lennaert Nijgh

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Bluejay
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Bluejay » Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:20 am

Every answer that comes up are thoughts (like: 'That means I'm nothing', 'Oh no, that answer is based on thought', 'I don't know', 'oh wait that answer is also based on thought') accompanied by body sensations.
Sometimes thoughts have to exhaust themselves in this style of inquiry, so you just keep going: And who is thinking this? Who is nothing?
Yes, I honestly am quite mindboggled. I remember some months ago watching a video of someone who said that she did not mind being scared at all and I just couldn't imagine how that would be possible. It seems very possible now.
Yes, it's fascinating how this happens and unfolds :)
Yes I am, there are often thoughts like: 'Oh feeling the sensations doesn't do anything', 'Why am I wasting my time'. These seem like the last layer of defense, because when the thoughts are traced back there is nothing left to resist the feeling.
Absolutely. Eventually there won't be as many thoughts because you simply aren't interested in them. There's just going to be the feeling and maybe a subtle resistance sometimes, which you will know because it feels like something isn't moving.
Yes! This has been a tremendous help. Surprisingly, just imagining the worst case scenario often brings along both the body sensations and the thoughts.
It's a good way of getting to the core of what's being avoided. If you want to intensify or test, you can use a sentence like 'I am not angry/afraid/sad/worthless' which will help you pinpoint if there's something hidden there.

Here's a pointer we might not have done:

The aim of this pointer is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?


Enjoy! :)

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Jairi7
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Jairi7 » Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:05 pm

Hi Henri,
Sometimes thoughts have to exhaust themselves in this style of inquiry, so you just keep going: And who is thinking this? Who is nothing?
Hmm, and no satisfying answer will ever appear from these questions, so just keep asking until there is the acceptance that there is not going to be any answer?
There's just going to be the feeling and maybe a subtle resistance sometimes, which you will know because it feels like something isn't moving.
I have noticed that the resistance is much much more clear and it often takes a few seconds to recognize it.
Experiment - Finding the function of choice.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
I picked orange juice and Dubbel Fris (a very sweet red juice).

I did not choose the qualities, the qualities just came up in thought by themselves. I also did not choose the preferences, they also arose by themselves. By the way, it actually took a little bit for thoughts with qualities to pop up. They rarely arise with any decisions. The decisions are almost always simply based on a kind of gut feeling and completely independent from the content of thought. So this part of the exercise felt very weird and almost a little bit unnatural. As if the thoughts were just coming up for the sake of the exercise and not for the sake of the decision. The gut feeling arose completely on its own by the way, although maybe there was this sense that there was an 'I' that was choosing to listen to the gut feeling. I'm not entirely sure. But where smoke is, is fire hahaha.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
Actually, during the counting down there were many thoughts like: 'I have to pick this, I have to pick that', 'If I pick this it is because of that', 'I need to pick this, because if I pick the other I did it because I listened to thoughts', etc. However, when the countdown reached zero there was a very brief moment of silence and my hand just moved towards the orange juice. I did not choose the intertwining of the counting and preferences nor did I choose the thoughts and feelings did arose during it. They all happened. There also was no mental function of doing the choosing, it just happened after some gut feeling at the exact moment of silence. The function only seems to be in action, however when recognized it is only thought in combination with some body sensations.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No chooser arose, the decision just happened. Even the moment when it happened came out of nowhere. The counting was like 3,2,1,0,... and then there was the thought: 'Wait I have to choose', then some more ... and then suddenly poof there goes my hand.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?
A feeling can definitely not choose. Decisions just happen to appear during or after some feelings appears. However, they are not bound in any way if that makes sense.

~ Jaïr
Als zelfs vlinders moeten sterven laat ik niet mijn vreugd bederven
Ik kan zonder vliegen leven wat zou ik nog langer geven
Om een vlinder die verdronken is in mij.
Om te leven hoef ik echt geen vlinder meer te zijn.
~Lennaert Nijgh

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Bluejay
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Bluejay » Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:16 pm

Hmm, and no satisfying answer will ever appear from these questions, so just keep asking until there is the acceptance that there is not going to be any answer?
If you keep looking for answers in thought, probably there will be frustration, boredom, maybe anger, and so on, until you give up.

You could also ask: Before thought, what am I?
Or: What is the source of thoughts?

Maybe I've already given you these questions?
I have noticed that the resistance is much much more clear and it often takes a few seconds to recognize it.
Good stuff.
By the way, it actually took a little bit for thoughts with qualities to pop up. They rarely arise with any decisions. The decisions are almost always simply based on a kind of gut feeling and completely independent from the content of thought. So this part of the exercise felt very weird and almost a little bit unnatural. As if the thoughts were just coming up for the sake of the exercise and not for the sake of the decision. The gut feeling arose completely on its own by the way, although maybe there was this sense that there was an 'I' that was choosing to listen to the gut feeling. I'm not entirely sure. But where smoke is, is fire hahaha.
That's good that you're already operating so intuitively.

🚒 👩‍🚒
Actually, during the counting down there were many thoughts like: 'I have to pick this, I have to pick that', 'If I pick this it is because of that', 'I need to pick this, because if I pick the other I did it because I listened to thoughts', etc. However, when the countdown reached zero there was a very brief moment of silence and my hand just moved towards the orange juice. I did not choose the intertwining of the counting and preferences nor did I choose the thoughts and feelings did arose during it. They all happened. There also was no mental function of doing the choosing, it just happened after some gut feeling at the exact moment of silence. The function only seems to be in action, however when recognized it is only thought in combination with some body sensations.
👍
A feeling can definitely not choose. Decisions just happen to appear during or after some feelings appears. However, they are not bound in any way if that makes sense.
Yes. A decision is really an arbitrary snapshot in time. Meaning, to choose between two drinks, I have to say that the choice starts when the two drinks are on the table, but can't we also say that the choice started when we were born?

Or when the universe was born? A culmination of causes and conditions. The whole universe choosing what to drink.

Now the second part of this exercise:

Can you bring this awareness of choosing with you during everyday life for the next day or so?

Basically just be aware of decisions as they happen. Is there a chooser of them? And feel what that feels like.

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Jairi7
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Jairi7 » Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:28 am

Hi Henri,
You could also ask: Before thought, what am I?
Or: What is the source of thoughts?
After the question(s) there are frustration and boredom feelings mostly and thoughts like: 'How long do I have to keep feeling this feeling', 'Oh there is a thought I shouldn't think that', 'Oh wait, that was a thought I shouldn't think that'. Then there is the feeling again, etc. I don't think you have given these exact questions by the way. They remind me of a video I once watched by someone named Eshwar.
Yes. A decision is really an arbitrary snapshot in time. Meaning, to choose between two drinks, I have to say that the choice starts when the two drinks are on the table, but can't we also say that the choice started when we were born? Or when the universe was born? A culmination of causes and conditions. The whole universe choosing what to drink.
Hmmm, I never looked at it that way. I sometimes try to trace my decisions back to some place, but the place would always seem arbitrary and not the final endpoint. This makes so much sense haha, every decision just falls back into infinity (or into nothing).
Can you bring this awareness of choosing with you during everyday life for the next day or so?
Basically just be aware of decisions as they happen. Is there a chooser of them? And feel what that feels like.
I will do this tomorrow and report back!

~ Jaïr
Als zelfs vlinders moeten sterven laat ik niet mijn vreugd bederven
Ik kan zonder vliegen leven wat zou ik nog langer geven
Om een vlinder die verdronken is in mij.
Om te leven hoef ik echt geen vlinder meer te zijn.
~Lennaert Nijgh

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Bluejay
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Bluejay » Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:41 am

After the question(s) there are frustration and boredom feelings mostly and thoughts like: 'How long do I have to keep feeling this feeling', 'Oh there is a thought I shouldn't think that', 'Oh wait, that was a thought I shouldn't think that'. Then there is the feeling again, etc. I don't think you have given these exact questions by the way. They remind me of a video I once watched by someone named Eshwar.
I've seen Eshwar in a few videos. He's very good. Very direct.

Yes, so the inquiry is just about inquiring into each thought. Each layer of thoughts will try to get you to identify, which you're already noticing, so keep going.

You could also do a session here and there focused just on feelings. So you might begin with self-inquiry questions, and when boredom/frustration comes up, let go of the thought and go directly to the feeling and feel it.

And almost always the frustration/boredom is 'hiding' another feeling beneath it. Could be sadness, hurt, anger, hopelessness, lack of control, etc, etc. It might become more obvious once the frustration/boredom is fully felt, then you can ask: Is there another feeling here?
Hmmm, I never looked at it that way. I sometimes try to trace my decisions back to some place, but the place would always seem arbitrary and not the final endpoint. This makes so much sense haha, every decision just falls back into infinity (or into nothing).
👍
I will do this tomorrow and report back!
Roger that!

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Jairi7
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Jairi7 » Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:30 pm

Hi Henri,
I've seen Eshwar in a few videos. He's very good. Very direct.
Yeah, Eshwar is awesome!
And almost always the frustration/boredom is 'hiding' another feeling beneath it. Could be sadness, hurt, anger, hopelessness, lack of control, etc, etc. It might become more obvious once the frustration/boredom is fully felt, then you can ask: Is there another feeling here?
Yes, I noticed this too recently. The frustration seems to hide some of the 'not being worth it', 'not being good enough', 'others have to change' and 'why isn't the world like I want it to be' feelings, though I have not figured it out fully yet. The boredom is more clear and hides the feeling 'not having enough time to change myself before its too late', which in turn hides the feeling of 'not being good enough as I am'. Once I feel that, the feeling remains, but the obsessive drive to do something about the boredom instantly vanishes. I think both frustration and boredom hide different facets of the same feeling that is still partially being repressed. Though this is just a thought.
I will do this tomorrow and report back!
Roger that!
I was pretty busy yesterday and unfortunately wasn't very aware for large parts of the day yesterday. But for the times I was aware, there was no chooser, every decision came up out of thin air. All decisions arose out of the gut feeling and most of the time it didn't feel like 'I' was choosing to follow the gut feeling. However, sometimes it did, I still have not figured out why that happens. The chooser in these situations felt similar to how the chooser felt previously, just a sensation in the body and thoughts like: 'Oh no, now it feels like I am choosing again', 'I shouldn't feel that'.

~Jaïr
Als zelfs vlinders moeten sterven laat ik niet mijn vreugd bederven
Ik kan zonder vliegen leven wat zou ik nog langer geven
Om een vlinder die verdronken is in mij.
Om te leven hoef ik echt geen vlinder meer te zijn.
~Lennaert Nijgh

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Bluejay
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Bluejay » Tue Nov 21, 2023 8:09 pm

Yes, I noticed this too recently. The frustration seems to hide some of the 'not being worth it', 'not being good enough', 'others have to change' and 'why isn't the world like I want it to be' feelings, though I have not figured it out fully yet. The boredom is more clear and hides the feeling 'not having enough time to change myself before its too late', which in turn hides the feeling of 'not being good enough as I am'. Once I feel that, the feeling remains, but the obsessive drive to do something about the boredom instantly vanishes. I think both frustration and boredom hide different facets of the same feeling that is still partially being repressed. Though this is just a thought.
It might be worth seeing if there's underneath these stories of 'not being good enough' and so on. Usually there is. You might end up in a place where there's just sadness, anger, hurt, not being loved and so on.

Have you looked into Scott Kiloby on YouTube? He has some good stuff on emotional work.
I was pretty busy yesterday and unfortunately wasn't very aware for large parts of the day yesterday. But for the times I was aware, there was no chooser, every decision came up out of thin air. All decisions arose out of the gut feeling and most of the time it didn't feel like 'I' was choosing to follow the gut feeling. However, sometimes it did, I still have not figured out why that happens. The chooser in these situations felt similar to how the chooser felt previously, just a sensation in the body and thoughts like: 'Oh no, now it feels like I am choosing again', 'I shouldn't feel that'.
Keep examining the times it feels like you're choosing again. You could do it right after you realize, or even end of the day before falling asleep; going over each situation and seeing how the feeling of choosing comes up.

Just doing vipassana/separating the senses over and over. See, hear, feel coming together and creating the feeling that someone is choosing.

So keep being aware of someone choosing. If you keep forgetting, set a timer for every hour or so, and then do a quick inquiry break for a few minutes. Think back to the last hour if you felt like a chooser, then remember back and inquire.

Does this make sense?

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Jairi7
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Re: Diving into direct experience

Postby Jairi7 » Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:33 pm

Hi Henri,
It might be worth seeing if there's underneath these stories of 'not being good enough' and so on. Usually there is. You might end up in a place where there's just sadness, anger, hurt, not being loved and so on.
Yeah, I feel like most of these emotions I have grown pretty comfortable with, but maybe there are still parts of these that I'm actually secretly repressing, I'll definitely take a look again!
Have you looked into Scott Kiloby on YouTube? He has some good stuff on emotional work.
Other than the five videos you sent me, I haven't looked at much of his stuff. Which videos do you recommend?
Just doing vipassana/separating the senses over and over. See, hear, feel coming together and creating the feeling that someone is choosing. So keep being aware of someone choosing. If you keep forgetting, set a timer for every hour or so, and then do a quick inquiry break for a few minutes. Think back to the last hour if you felt like a chooser, then remember back and inquire. Does this make sense?
Yes, this makes sense! The timer thing is also a good one. Most of the time I'm just not thinking about it, so being reminded is very useful. I will do it tomorrow and check back in.

By the way, I never knew vipassana was just separating the senses. I watched videos of Frank Yang who apparently did a lot of vipassana and talked about it a lot, but I never made the connection. I always thought it was some advanced meditation technique that I didn't understand.

~Jaïr
Als zelfs vlinders moeten sterven laat ik niet mijn vreugd bederven
Ik kan zonder vliegen leven wat zou ik nog langer geven
Om een vlinder die verdronken is in mij.
Om te leven hoef ik echt geen vlinder meer te zijn.
~Lennaert Nijgh


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