Thank You already

[Pohjantahti]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no me/I inside this body mind.1 there is thoughts, feelings sensations but no entity. I vän understand this but yet there is contractions and sensing the "me", getting lost in thoughts and uncomfortable feelings.. there has been glimpses of openess, spaciousness and freedom

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance to see the truth and find peace, freedom and joy...I am looking for real experience of my own, to see through. I am tired of this seeking that has not given "results" and i want to end the suffering.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect questions that I will ponder and think as deeply as I can and answer them. I expect patience if I get stuck. I really do nit know what else to expect other than than that we are a good match.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started with hatha yoga and meditation in that tradition and dod some yearly retreats at their retreat center. After that I found a vipassana group (not Goenka) and meditated some years there and at home too. I did some 10day silent retreats. Also goenka retreat. After that I read Eckhart Tolle, Ramana, Nisargadatta, Krishnamurti etc and listened to several difereny nonduality teaches (f.e. adyashanti/ sailor bob adamsson, pamela wilson and the öist goes on lol

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Elad]

Hello, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience. You don't need to be a meditator or a big reader, but it is important you feel very motivated and commited to do exercises and look at questions from the guide, and write your most clear and true answers.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

What may I call you?

Warmly,
Elad

[Pohjantahti]

Hello Elad and Thank You for offering your guidance.
Yes I am going to do my best to just look at my own experience and to be 100% honest and look as deeply as I can and post daily and let you know if I can't for some reason. You can call me mica. Some butterflies in my tummy now ;)

[Elad]

Hello Elad and Thank You for offering your guidance.
Yes I am going to do my best to just look at my own experience and to be 100% honest and look as deeply as I can and post daily and let you know if I can't for some reason. You can call me mica. Some butterflies in my tummy now ;)

Hi Mica, great! So let's start here:

Please read the following sentence and then just write me whatever comes up in response to it, without censoring, giving particular attention to whatever feels extra true OR emotionally charged. You don't have to agree with all you wirte, just rant and let whatever is there be expressed and seen. Here is the "trigger senttence":

THERE IS NO SEPARATE SELF/DOER/CONTROLLER/CHOOSER AND THERE NEVER HAS BEEN.

Go :)

[Pohjantahti]

It feels like there is, but when I am looking I can see that I do not choose the thoughts that pop up, not the feelings either. In my direct experience I can not go to the past and see that there never has been a controller, but logically It should be the same now as before. The feeling of doership is still here. If feels like there is a me doing things. Deciding to go to the store or not. Many times I get lost in thoughts and believing there is a me here. But when I think what the me is, it is just thoughts, conditioning, memories....no real entity there at all.

The separate self feels so real at times (when immersed in doing something intensiv it is not there) I am here and the things over there, but when I close my eyes the body feels more like vibrations with not so clear boundary...and I am not this body. The separate self/me feels like a super strong habit that is believed for so long that it becomes "true".
Sorry for all the spelling mistakes. I am writing this 8n my phone.

[Elad]

It feels like there is, but when I am looking I can see that I do not choose the thoughts that pop up, not the feelings either. In my direct experience I can not go to the past and see that there never has been a controller, but logically It should be the same now as before. The feeling of doership is still here. If feels like there is a me doing things. Deciding to go to the store or not. Many times I get lost in thoughts and believing there is a me here. But when I think what the me is, it is just thoughts, conditioning, memories....no real entity there at all.

The separate self feels so real at times (when immersed in doing something intensiv it is not there) I am here and the things over there, but when I close my eyes the body feels more like vibrations with not so clear boundary...and I am not this body. The separate self/me feels like a super strong habit that is believed for so long that it becomes "true".
Sorry for all the spelling mistakes. I am writing this 8n my phone.

Hi Mica,

Okay good. For the purposes of our investigation it will be very helpful if you attend only to direct experience in the here and now, and what you discover is true. Not to "how it often feels". How it often feels are old habits of being lost in thought and they might be slow to change. What we aim for here is that it becomes 100% clear what is true when you look with full attention at what is here/now. Metaphorically speaking it is like if believing in self is being an alcoholic. Our aim here is not to help you remove all craving for alcohol or make sure you will not relapse and drink again. Our aim is more modest: that it becomes clear for you beyond doubt that the separate self/doer/controller is an illusion and always has been, just like an alcoholic who realizes beyond doubt that alcohol is never the true and healthy way for him, that it is always the way to avoid reality instead of love it and be in it. This metaphor is not perfect, but I hope it conveys this important point about our modest and yet highly impactful aim.

Are you willing to let this be what our work is about? I.e. not how it "often feels/seems" but what you see to be true when you pay full attention here/now? And are you willing to accept that this seeing wont necessarily feel special or wonderful, it might feel not so special and disapointing. Are you willing to let this be not about special and not about permanence or even "most of the time", but all about what is actually seen to be absolutely true in direct looking here/now?

Also, please do this exercise:

[Elad]

Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference: If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[Pohjantahti]

Yes I am with you. To see here and now what is true. The socks and alcoholic metaphor are clear. Thank you for helping me to get to the right way of doing this. It feels a bit new for me but I will try to do my best in keeping it in here and niw and seeing directly.You wrote about an exercise but could not see what that exercise was. Thank you for your time.

[Pohjantahti]

Now I saw the exercise was the example with the socks

[Elad]

Great! Here is an exercise more to get us going:

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought. So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience).

Do this ungoingly as much as possible for one day, when you don't have something else you must attend to.

One time sit and do it and write in real time to me for 5 minutes, here is me doing it a little as an example.

hearing car on the street, simply= sound
feeling feet on the floor, simply= sensation
thinking what to share more, simply= thought
etc

And when ongoing during the day just label (and here is me doing it again for a few seconds): sound, sight, sound, sensation, thought, sensation, sight, sound, sight, sensation.

After some hours with this and the 5 min sharing, tell me what else you noticed in real time.

[Pohjantahti]

Here we go: 5 min of labeling in real time now:
back touching the sofa, simply= sensation
hearing the fridge, simply= sound
seeing the dark sky, simply = sight
Feeling clothes touching the skin, simply= sensation
fingers touching the letters on the computer, simply= sensation
Seeing colours on the screen, simply= sight (colour)
thinking why is no thoughts coming, simply = thought
hearing the breath, simply= hearing and sensation
Hearing a sound in the apartment above, simply= hearing
Hearing the fridge making sounds, simply= hearing
Thinking "it is so quitee here,nothing happening, simply= thought
Thinking "did I do this for 5 min now", simply= thought
Hearing a little laughter coming out of the mouth, simply=sound and sensation
body took a deeper breath, simply =sound
Body Changing position, simply= sensation of movement
Looking around the room, simply= sight of colour and form
Feeling the feet touching the thighs, simply= sensation
Thinking "is this enough now?", simply= thought
Feelin the heartbeat, simply= sensation
Reading the instructions, simply= sight/seeing

Was walking earlier and noting sight, sound, sensation, smell and when it comes to body moving is it simply sensation (ov movement)? I noticed that thoughts of "what is this good for", "this is repetetiv" came up and sensation of restlessness came up. I noticed that thoughts labeled some experiende in a way that really is just intepretation. Like uncomfortable sensation but is it really uncomfortable or just an old way of intepretation and not direct experience of here and now....

[Elad]

Here we go: 5 min of labeling in real time now:
back touching the sofa, simply= sensation
hearing the fridge, simply= sound
seeing the dark sky, simply = sight
Feeling clothes touching the skin, simply= sensation
fingers touching the letters on the computer, simply= sensation
Seeing colours on the screen, simply= sight (colour)
thinking why is no thoughts coming, simply = thought
hearing the breath, simply= hearing and sensation
Hearing a sound in the apartment above, simply= hearing
Hearing the fridge making sounds, simply= hearing
Thinking "it is so quitee here,nothing happening, simply= thought
Thinking "did I do this for 5 min now", simply= thought
Hearing a little laughter coming out of the mouth, simply=sound and sensation
body took a deeper breath, simply =sound
Body Changing position, simply= sensation of movement
Looking around the room, simply= sight of colour and form
Feeling the feet touching the thighs, simply= sensation
Thinking "is this enough now?", simply= thought
Feelin the heartbeat, simply= sensation
Reading the instructions, simply= sight/seeing

Was walking earlier and noting sight, sound, sensation, smell and when it comes to body moving is it simply sensation (ov movement)? I noticed that thoughts of "what is this good for", "this is repetetiv" came up and sensation of restlessness came up. I noticed that thoughts labeled some experiende in a way that really is just intepretation. Like uncomfortable sensation but is it really uncomfortable or just an old way of intepretation and not direct experience of here and now....

Good noticing here. Movement we might look into later, for now not essential, and also not essential for this investigation. You did good noticing, and good you noticed the interpretive nature of some of your automatically believed thoughts. Now please do this exercise:

[Elad]

Observing thoughts


Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 15-30 minutes (you choose) and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

[Pohjantahti]

I sat about 30 min. It was a bit hard to completely ignore what the thoughts were saying. Some thoughts were worrying kind that produceded an immediate sensation of unease in the body.

Where are they coming from and going to?
They just come up and disapper. In my direct experience I have no clue where they came from or go to. (logically I think they come from conditioning and subconscius mind)

Did I do anything to make a particular thought to appear?
No, but I got a thought "I can decide to thinkg about", then there was a paus," about a red apple". That felt like I chose it. That was the only time it felt like choosing, the rest just happend.

Could I have done anything to make a different thought to appear at that exact moment instead?
No and I can not predict my next thought for sure!
I can not select from a range of thoughts to just have pleasant thoughts, but I could take a pleasant thought and start consciously repeating it like a mantra in my head.

I can not choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.( I wish I could though. Those thoughts are so easy to get stuck into and somehow the body seems to immediatly react to them with a "uncomfortable" sensations. Even if I see these thoughts and know they are not true, they still affect the bodily sensations.)

When doing this exercise I did not pick or choose the thoughts that came to me no. There is a belief though here that If I train the mind to think positiv thoughts mostly it could work (positiv affirmations and training the mind to think more positively). There is a little doubt coming up and unsureness.... what to do about that?

I do not think I can prevent a thought from coming. Maybe for a little while, like when focusing on the breath, then the mind can be silent for a while....or when waiting for thoughts, like in this exercise, there was som abscence of thought there for a while before the first thought appeared.

Yes it seemes like thought has som order at times. A thought about a money issue came up and after that other moneyrelated thoughts came up, so unsure about this. How to see this more clearly?

[Elad]

Lots of good observing here and good honesty in everything.


"I got a thought "I can decide to thinkg about", then there was a paus," about a red apple". That felt like I chose it. That was the only time it felt like choosing, the rest just happend."

Right, that's a common trap. Look deeper. Could you decide that thought came "I can decide to think about"... ? Once you believe the ilusion that you chose that thought, it looks as if the rest of it is chosen. Can you see this?

Try just writing a list of words, like: hammer, finger, blood, pussy, cat, dragon, etc. Notice how you can't choose and don't decide what the next word will be. Even when a thought comes up that sees one word associated with the next one, this thought of association comes by itself. Try it. Do you see?


"Could I have done anything to make a different thought to appear at that exact moment instead?
No and I can not predict my next thought for sure!
I can not select from a range of thoughts to just have pleasant thoughts, but I could take a pleasant thought and start consciously repeating it like a mantra in my head."

Same trap. Yes conventionally speaking mind can be conditioned. However if you really look what initiates a particular activity of say reinforcing positive thoughts or mantra, you will never find a self or chooser who made the practice start. Practice and fruit of practice exist without practitioner.

"I can not choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.( I wish I could though. Those thoughts are so easy to get stuck into and somehow the body seems to immediatly react to them with a "uncomfortable" sensations. Even if I see these thoughts and know they are not true, they still affect the bodily sensations.)"

Right.

"When doing this exercise I did not pick or choose the thoughts that came to me no. There is a belief though here that If I train the mind to think positiv thoughts mostly it could work (positiv affirmations and training the mind to think more positively). There is a little doubt coming up and unsureness.... what to do about that?"

Same trap, same point. An important subtle point to see. Associations, habits, cause and effect exsist conventionally speaking. And looked in direct experience in real time no one is in control of it, no one is making it happen. Look - can you see this?

"I do not think I can prevent a thought from coming. Maybe for a little while, like when focusing on the breath, then the mind can be silent for a while....or when waiting for thoughts, like in this exercise, there was som abscence of thought there for a while before the first thought appeared."

Same point.

"Yes it seemes like thought has som order at times. A thought about a money issue came up and after that other moneyrelated thoughts came up, so unsure about this. How to see this more clearl?"

Seeming order exist. Thoughts of association and causality exist. What does not exist is a self that is choosing or producing them, choosing to see association or not. And the associations/order only exist in another thought. The door to see all this is to look at unfolding in real time, as opposed to philosopically consider this.

Was all this clear to you? Was anything unclear?