Help with Rooting out Beliefs, Habits, and Patterns

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

Will do! I'll tackle it little by little.

Enjoy :)
Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

When looking at this picture, thought automatically divides and labels colour into many different colours, then further names those colours into specific objects.

This is a very helpful reminder, thanks!

IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels:-
Are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?

There is simply color, but even this might be going too far, right? I can't find anything called "color" when I take this further. There is just seeing.

Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’? Or is the gap actually colour?

The gap is definitely just color. Pretty cool :)

Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?

It's impossible to answer where it begins and ends. No dividing line can be found. That is just a construct.

Are there many colours or just seeing (i.e. light) behaving differently?

Ah :) See above answer, then.

Is seeing happening to a seer?

No, seeing is just happening.

What is outside of seeing doing it?

Nothing.

Yes, you can try the same exercises (like the "forehead") with “face”… Is the “face” doing the seeing?

It is not.

Just because there is a sensation there, does that mean that it is responsible for seeing? Check!

This is another very helpful reminder. Anything that seems to imply relationship, causation, etc., is simply thought. The sensation does not at all mean it is responsible for seeing.

Are there seer, seeing, and seen, or just seeing (verb)?

Just seeing, the verb.

Where are the borders that separate the seeing from the seen, and the seeing from the seer?

Whenever I look, I can't find any.

Where does the seeing end and seen starts?

That would be impossible to find.

Is seen outside of seeing?

No.

Where does the seer end and the seeing starts?

Also impossible to find.

Is the seer outside of seeing? Outside where exactly?

No.


I'll keep working on the rest of these :)

Thanks,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

There is simply color, but even this might be going too far, right? I can't find anything called "color" when I take this further. There is just seeing.

Very good!!!

I'll keep working on the rest of these :)

Looking forward to the rest

Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

Hope you’re having a nice week :)

To continue the inquiry:

You can repeat these exercises with the rest of the senses…

For example, with feeling, you can touch “someone” or “something”. Are there tow sensations – one of someone/something and one of you/fingers, OR one sensation (labelled “me touching something”)?

Just one sensation. Even sensations thought labels “different” blend together, and no border between them can be found.

Are “others”/”things” outside of feeling?

Just sensation and seeing.

Are there a feeler, feeling, and sensations?

Just feeling. All sensation blends into one, and is just feeling.

Where are the borders?

There are none.

Are there “solid” sensations floating around?
Floating where?

No, feeling is constant.

Can one sensation be separated from another without thought content?

No. This has become very obvious.

Are there different sensations or just a fluctuating feeling?

Just fluctuating feeling. Kind of like seeing “colors,” it’s still just seeing.

With hearing… Tell me one sound that you heard when doing this. (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear it for longer). Now sit quietly and listen to the sound for a minute of two and as you listen, inquire:

The electric fan in my room.

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the ‘birds chirping' (for example)?

It isn’t.

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is ‘birds chirping', or is it thought that suggests it?

Only thought suggests this.

What is the DE of hearing ‘birds chirping’? Is it DE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?

It is sound. It is hearing. That’s all.

Is the sound coming from a distance, or is it closer than that? Is there “here” and “there” in hearing?

The experience of sound is immediate. No “there,” no “distance.” “Here” could imply a “there,” but the sound is immediately right here. Hearing is immediate.

Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all there is, is a fluctuating hearing. Again is there a hearer/listener? You can check for borders again…

No hearer/listener outside of thought labels/content. Not there in DE. No border can be found. Trying to do so seems a bit ridiculous :)

I will continue the inquiry tomorrow.

Thanks a ton,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

No. This has become very obvious.

Just fluctuating feeling. Kind of like seeing “colors,” it’s still just seeing.

The experience of sound is immediate. No “there,” no “distance.” “Here” could imply a “there,” but the sound is immediately right here. Hearing is immediate.

Very good!!!

I will continue the inquiry tomorrow.

Looking forward to…
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg
It's been 4 days since your last reply... Are we still doing this?
Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

Apologies, we are indeed still doing this. Here are the rest of the inquiries:

You can explore smelling and tasting in a similar manner...

Smell seemed to be instantly all-pervasive/everywhere, while taste initially seemed confined to the sensation labelled "mouth" or "tongue."

But as with all the others, closer inspection revealed no edge or boundary, just sensation. Just experiencing. Anything "else" was the content and labels of thought.

SO! Is there a “thing detector” or just thinking? Is there a thinker?...(we’ve explored the thinker already)

Just thinking, no thinker and no "thing detector!"

Also do hearing, seeing, smelling, feeling, tasting and thinking appear in different places? Where exactly?

They appear in exactly the same place, with no boundary, edge, or differentiator.

We don’t experience our senses individually. Rather, these are different aspects of experiencing. Thought tells us that our senses are separate streams of information. We see with our eyes, hear with our ears, feel with our skin, smell with our nose, taste with our tongue. In DE, though, it is seen as a one experience.

Clear. Just experiencing :)

Senses affect each other. Although speech is perceived through the ears, what we see can change what we hear. In this video, a man produces the same syllable over and over again. If you watch his mouth, you’ll hear the syllable “fah,” but if you look away, you’ll hear “bah.” Although your ears hear “bah,” your eyes see “fah”. This phenomenon is known as the McGurk effect.

That was pretty nifty. I've seen things like this before, and they're helpful reminders that all perception is interpretation, no inherent existence, as you say later :)

Another example of sensory interaction is how both taste and smell are vital for savouring food (flavour). If smell is lost or impaired, for instance, the taste of food will also be impaired, even if taste receptors on the tongue are working fine.
Here is a fun video that demonstrates how a relationship between sight and touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmtdex=4&t=3s

It said this video isn't available anymore, but I'd love to watch if you have another example.

Even though it might look as there are clearly defined senses, DE shows a different story.
So even the senses are dependently originated which makes them also empty of inherent existence.

Well said! The inquiries have illustrated this wonderfully.

Thanks for your patience as I worked through all of them :)

Kind regards,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

Very good looking!

It said this video isn't available anymore, but I'd love to watch if you have another example.

Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... dex=3&t=4s


Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities (thought content), but ones that could be described.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.
Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

Very good looking!

Thank you!

Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... dex=3&t=4s

This video worked and was really cool to see in action. I've read about stuff like this before but never witnessed it. Quite illuminating :)

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?

In direct experience, it isn't. "It was my brain, muscles, nervous system, etc." are all thought content/labels, but none of that can actually be found. It is just happening.

Does a thought control it?

No. Even if it says that it did.

Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?

No.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

I don't know. I can't answer that question because it just happens.

I will complete exercise two at breakfast in the morning. I'll repeat it because it's good to practice, because this realization struck me like a ton of bricks a few months ago. I had already fully realized and accepted that we don't choose our thoughts. But then, after watching a video about choice, between say, chocolate and peanut butter, the following thought stream presented itself:

1. Thoughts just happen; there is no chooser or controller of them.
2. In this hypothetical case, I would eat chocolate after the thought that says, "I want chocolate, not peanut butter."
3. But I didn't choose for that thought to appear, and if the subsequent action was based on a thought, did I really choose the action?
4. Wait, when was the last time I did an action that wasn't based on a thought?
5. And reflexes and instinct don't count, because those actions clearly happen automatically.
6. Remember the time recently on a boat ride when it hit a choppy wave, but you instinctively and effortlessly took two steps and grabbed a railing to catch your balance? "You" didn't choose to do that. It just happened because it was what the situation called for.
7. Holy heck, "I" have never chosen to "do" a single action in "my" entire life.

While all of this is obviously labels and thought content, at that moment, the concept of "no free will" went from conceptual to deeply and intimately known. I suppose that's not exactly an accurate description, but I'm pretty sure you get what I mean.

Anyway, I will complete the "choice" exercise in the morning and compare it to that thought stream. I'm excited to see what happens :)

Thank you,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

In direct experience, it isn't. "It was my brain, muscles, nervous system, etc." are all thought content/labels, but none of that can actually be found. It is just happening.

Very good!

1. Thoughts just happen; there is no chooser or controller of them.
2. In this hypothetical case, I would eat chocolate after the thought that says, "I want chocolate, not peanut butter."
3. But I didn't choose for that thought to appear, and if the subsequent action was based on a thought, did I really choose the action?
4. Wait, when was the last time I did an action that wasn't based on a thought?
5. And reflexes and instinct don't count, because those actions clearly happen automatically.
6. Remember the time recently on a boat ride when it hit a choppy wave, but you instinctively and effortlessly took two steps and grabbed a railing to catch your balance? "You" didn't choose to do that. It just happened because it was what the situation called for.
7. Holy heck, "I" have never chosen to "do" a single action in "my" entire life.

While all of this is obviously labels and thought content, at that moment, the concept of "no free will" went from conceptual to deeply and intimately known. I suppose that's not exactly an accurate description, but I'm pretty sure you get what I mean.

Thank you for sharing your thought process, I could feel the shift :)

Anyway, I will complete the "choice" exercise in the morning and compare it to that thought stream. I'm excited to see what happens :)

Great! Looking forward to
Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for sharing your thought process, I could feel the shift :)

:) :)

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

They appeared by themselves.

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They just popped up by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?

That is what happened, and no I did not.

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Nope.

Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

Also no.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

No such thing happened.

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

I recently decided to de-prioritize the online portion of my business. I work in the fitness industry, training clients to increase their strength and mobility, decrease pain, etc. For a few years, I've pursued an online component of this business with varying degrees of commitment and intensity. Within the past two months, I realized that the amount of stress vs. enjoyment the online work brings compared to the in-person work was too unfavorable to continue pursuing building it to a level that would replace my in-person income. So, I decided to stop focusing on the online portion of my business and devote more attention to in-person coaching.

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

There were many conditions that led to this decision.

How many of these conditions were outside of your influence?

Tons of them. Too many to list.

What was in your control (according to thought)?

Possibly continuing to "try harder," or "be more active online." But as you pointed out, these are just thoughts. And it's incredibly obvious that all of this was outside of my control. Even something like "feeling more fulfilled by in-person coaching," is out of my control. "I" can't control how those thoughts and feelings arise.

Thank you,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg
Awesome looking as usual!

There were many conditions that led to this decision.

Possibly continuing to "try harder," or "be more active online." But as you pointed out, these are just thoughts. And it's incredibly obvious that all of this was outside of my control. Even something like "feeling more fulfilled by in-person coaching," is out of my control. "I" can't control how those thoughts and feelings arise.

I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language. What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

Another factor in cause and effect is time, so let’s explore it.
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

Apologies for the delay. I will do my best to complete this inquiry tomorrow.

Thank you!

-Greg

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

I hope you had a nice weekend :)

Awesome looking as usual!

Thank you!

The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language.

Clear :)

What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear?

Nothing makes those appear. They're just there. There is nothing that causes anything to appear.

Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

They do not.

Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

No it is not. They happen regardless.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

No, just unchanging now.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No. No line that divides one moment from the next can be found.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

Nope.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

It's not moving at all.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

Definitely not. That's almost laughable :)

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Well, I can't find a beginning, and an "end" would be purely hypothetical.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

It doesn't do either of those things.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

It doesn't.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It's not there. It's just thought content. Thinking is happening. That's it.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Just labels and thought content about time. No actual experience.

Thank you :)

-Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

How is life these days? What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?
Love
Rali